Rick Nash vs Jeff Carter

[mooseOAK*]

Huh? I have a pretty good idea of who will be on the Flyers if there's a next season.

Maybe, but I don't know how.

 

[Gags1288]

Maybe, but I don't know how.

It's because they have a lot of players signed. Obviously, we don't know what the entire team will look like, but on defense they have Pitkanen, Johnsson, Seidenberg, Markov, Timander (likely 7th D). On offense they have Gagne, Roenick, Primeau, Knuble, Handzus, Stevenson, Sharpe, Brashear, Radivojevic, Kapanen, Carter(likely), Umberger (possible), Richards (possible). The rest of the holes will be filled via free agency, Leclair/Amonte will likely be bought out.

 

[mooseOAK*]

It's because they have a lot of players signed. Obviously, we don't know what the entire team will look like, but on defense they have Pitkanen, Johnsson, Seidenberg, Markov, Timander (likely 7th D). On offense they have Gagne, Roenick, Primeau, Knuble, Handzus, Stevenson, Sharpe, Brashear, Radivojevic, Kapanen, Carter(likely), Umberger (possible), Richards (possible). The rest of the holes will be filled via free agency, Leclair/Amonte will likely be bought out.

I never would have guessed that one team would have that many players under contract.

 

[salzy]

Then I don't know where the top two line quality youth is going to come from.

Flyer envy strikes again.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

Yes. But I don't consider it a certainty.

I peg Carter as a 20-20 kind of guy.

You've gotta be kidding me right? He'll be at best a third liner? Come on, Carter is going to be a #1 centre capable of 80 points per season at least.

 

[Frenzy31]

You've gotta be kidding me right? He'll be at best a third liner? Come on, Carter is going to be a #1 centre capable of 80 points per season at least.

But not right now. To compare him to a kid that has been playing in the NHL at the age of 18 and has put up a 40+ goal season is stupid.

Carter may be playing in the AHL next year. Hash will be playing in the NHL for his 3rd season. This is a bad comparison and not fair to either player.

 

[Sammy*]

Come on, Carter is going to be a #1 centre capable of 80 points per season at least.

 

[FlyersFan10*]

But not right now. To compare him to a kid that has been playing in the NHL at the age of 18 and has put up a 40+ goal season is stupid.

Carter may be playing in the AHL next year. Hash will be playing in the NHL for his 3rd season. This is a bad comparison and not fair to either player.

Exactly. Each player came to their team under different circumstances. It's safe to say that Columbus has nowhere near the talent that Philadelphia has and Nash was all but given a spot on the team. That's not to diss the Columbus organization, but it is a fair statement. They have so many holes in their roster, it makes swiss cheese look solid, but that's beside the point. Fact is that they had the roster space for Nash.

As for Carter, he goes to an organization that is blessed with incredible depth. I know that people will say it's depth that was bought by their revenue, but that's no fault of the Flyers that they can spend that much money on their organization. They can take the time to let Carter sit for awhile and let him develop the way they want.

What people fail to realize is that these guys are two totally different types of players. Carter is a finesse centerman who is good defensively and offensively. While he doesn't shy away from contact, he's also not a heavy hitter (the other night against Hershey would tell you that when he went to check someone and he fell face first into the boards). As for Nash, he is a true power forward in the Cam Neely/Rick Tocchet mold. He can hit, he can fight, he can score. However, he isn't much of a playmaker and that's what Carter is.

 

[paxtang]

As for Nash, he is a true power forward in the Cam Neely/Rick Tocchet mold. He can hit, he can fight, he can score.

You've got to be kidding me.

Rick Nash career NHL fights=ONE against freaking Marek Zidlicky, and he had to be forced into it.

Tocchet's first two years he had 42 fights. Neely had 23. Nash is much more like a John Leclair.

 

[blah]

I never would have guessed that one team would have that many players under contract.

That's what happens when your team has a good GM.

 

[mooseOAK*]

That's what happens when your team has a good GM.

Yes, giving Brashear a four year contract, brilliant.

The funny thing is that we have Leaf fans whining because they think that the Leafs have too many players under contract with a cap coming up but you are calling Clarke good because he has even more.

 

[blah]

That's because none of the players the Flyers have are well over 40.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

You've got to be kidding me.

Rick Nash career NHL fights=ONE against freaking Marek Zidlicky, and he had to be forced into it.

Tocchet's first two years he had 42 fights. Neely had 23. Nash is much more like a John Leclair.

That isn't entirely fair, although you are correct.

You can't do the stuff Neely and Tocchet did back then. If those two players started today, they simply couldn't do that stuff or they would be considered liabilities and unreliable players.

It's very cool that those players took matters in their own hands more often but they wouldn't today.

As for your comparsion to Leclair, I find it even more unfair. Leclair is a huge man-child with about as much testosterone as Mariah Carey. Rick Nash showed more guts last year than I've seen from Leclair in his prime.

It is unfortunate that today, players are cast in very specific roles. Because of this, it is very difficult to get true all-around guys. I miss the days where we had truly multi-dimensional guys. But the fact is, if Rick Tocchet had started two years ago, he'd either have a lot of fight or a lot of goals. It is very doubtful he would have both.

It is already a miracle that Rick Nash can hold his own in a league of hyper-conditioned athletes as an 18/19 years old if you ask me.

It's not the same league we had in the 80s.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

But not right now. To compare him to a kid that has been playing in the NHL at the age of 18 and has put up a 40+ goal season is stupid.

Carter may be playing in the AHL next year. Hash will be playing in the NHL for his 3rd season. This is a bad comparison and not fair to either player.

You're right, not right now. I'm saying his maximum potential is an 80 point guy.

 

[Bruins4Ever]

Yes, giving Brashear a four year contract, brilliant.

The funny thing is that we have Leaf fans whining because they think that the Leafs have too many players under contract with a cap coming up but you are calling Clarke good because he has even more.

This is my problem with the whole feud. Both sides are idiots when comparing teams. Leafs have numerous guys of 30 with VERY large contracts. Flyers have a younger team with more guys under 30 making less money. Brashear was given a 2 million per year contract for 4 years. He's a capable enforcer, if a bit of a dumbass, but effective.

This whole argument is pointless. Flyers are in a far better position than the Leafs right now, plain and simple. More players making less money, versus less players making more money. End of story.

 

[chris39bong]

That's what happens when your team has a good GM.

LMAO, that's what happens when your team has a BAD GM. Clarkie overpaid, offered long contracts, or traded for high income players when just about every other GM in the league was wisely getting prepared for a lockout and a new CBA that would reduce player salaries. Good GM you say...?

 

[paxtang]

That isn't entirely fair, although you are correct.

You can't do the stuff Neely and Tocchet did back then. If those two players started today, they simply couldn't do that stuff or they would be considered liabilities and unreliable players.

It's very cool that those players took matters in their own hands more often but they wouldn't today.

As for your comparsion to Leclair, I find it even more unfair. Leclair is a huge man-child with about as much testosterone as Mariah Carey. Rick Nash showed more guts last year than I've seen from Leclair in his prime.

It is unfortunate that today, players are cast in very specific roles. Because of this, it is very difficult to get true all-around guys. I miss the days where we had truly multi-dimensional guys. But the fact is, if Rick Tocchet had started two years ago, he'd either have a lot of fight or a lot of goals. It is very doubtful he would have both.

It is already a miracle that Rick Nash can hold his own in a league of hyper-conditioned athletes as an 18/19 years old if you ask me.

It's not the same league we had in the 80s.

There aren't really any REAL powerforwards to compare to anymore, but most when they come into the league fight a good portion. Guys like Primeau and Guerin, who I guess are the last type of guys you can lable that still had double digit fight numbers in their first 3 years. Even still, Rick Nash, counting juniors, has 3 fights in his whole career. He just isn't the fighting kind of guy, which is why I made the Leclair reference (powerforwards who don't fight). He may never get double digit fights in his whole career.

But regardless I think my point still stands in reference to what I was responding to. Nash shouldn't be compared to guys like Tocchet or Neely, and using the phrase "he can fight" isn't just flat out a lie, unless of course you call Radovan Somik a pugilist.

 

[Chilly Willy*]

Stupid comparison.

An NHL regular vs A prospect.

Yeah real good to compare a guy we have seen in the big arena vs a guy that will be there next season.

What is with the comparisons

 

[Roger's Pancreas*]

LMAO, that's what happens when your team has a BAD GM. Clarkie overpaid, offered long contracts, or traded for high income players when just about every other GM in the league was wisely getting prepared for a lockout and a new CBA that would reduce player salaries. Good GM you say...?

So who did Clarke overpay recently? This year he took the stand setting a fianite limit to contracts by saying the Captain will be paid the most. He's denied Recchi, Zhamnov, and Malakhov the typical five million dollar contracts because he's aware of the new cba. Then there's always that huge risk he took in not signing Carter and Richards, the franchise's future. I guess these were all terrible moves in your book right?

 

[blah]

LMAO, that's what happens when your team has a BAD GM. Clarkie overpaid, offered long contracts, or traded for high income players when just about every other GM in the league was wisely getting prepared for a lockout and a new CBA that would reduce player salaries. Good GM you say...?

You may wanna check the Flyers payroll and get back to me. I don't see any Alexei Yashin's on their roster.

 

[chris39bong]

So who did Clarke overpay recently? This year he took the stand setting a fianite limit to contracts by saying the Captain will be paid the most. He's denied Recchi, Zhamnov, and Malakhov the typical five million dollar contracts because he's aware of the new cba. Then there's always that huge risk he took in not signing Carter and Richards, the franchise's future. I guess these were all terrible moves in your book right?

Re-read my post. It says that "Clarkie overpaid, offered long contracts, or traded for high income players..." which makes your question about who Clarke recently overpaid less than 1/3 of a rebuttle to why Clarke is NOT a smart GM. I just wanted to point that out real quick And let me ask you a question? What do you view "recently" as meaning? It can mean a lot of things, but i am only going to take "recently" as overpaying a player on a contract that'll last past the last CBA. So here's your answer: LeClair ($9 mil? WOW!!!), Roenick (good player, but too costly), Brashear (already mentioned by another poster), Primeau ($5 mil on a 3rd line center? new contract better than his last one, however), and Ragnarsson ($3+ mil for a 3rd pairing d-man). So there you have it.

The first three contracts mentioned above also make Clarke guilty of offering longer contracts than he should have. Why do you think LeClair and Roenick signed with the Flyers? It wasn't just for the $$$, but also for the length of contract. That is why only 1 or 2 other teams were seriously in the running for either player; and Clarke offering longer contracts than a smart GM would is a HUGE reason why they signed. I mean come on, Clarke new the owners wanted a cap in a new CBA and yet he's willing to give only a handful of players a big chunk of a teams salary? Clarke is in the company of about 3 other GMs that played their cards pretty stinking bad...

Now lets look at Clarkie trading for high priced players when most GM's were trying to dump salary: Can you say Amonte? How about Zhamnov, Malakhov, Burke...? LMAO and you think not offering Recchi, Zhamnov, and Malakhov the "typical" $5 mil contract makes Clarke smart? If he offered them contracts then the Flyers would have to expose 3 quality players in the waiver draft. The Flyers team is stacked as is, there wasn't any room for any of them...especially at $5 mil! You crack me up buddy

 

[chris39bong]

You may wanna check the Flyers payroll and get back to me. I don't see any Alexei Yashin's on their roster.

No Alexei Yashin's, but a couple John LeClair's

 

[blah]

His contract expires after this season. They'll buy him out for 6 mil like it's nothing because it is nothing. Anyone else?

 

[MojoJojo]

No Alexei Yashin's, but a couple John LeClair's

The Flyers undoubtedly have a history of signing older players for too much money, and Clarke has made some terrible trades. Clarke has however, made some brilliant trades, and all in all the Flyers are a team stacked with talent, and are always contenders in the post season. Despite not having a high first round pick of their own since the early 90's, and constantly making trade deadline deals for the playoffs, Clarke has one of the best group of prospects in the NHL. With the exception of Pittsburg and Washington, the Flyers future is as good or better than anyone elses with the likes of Pitkanen, Carter, Richards, Ruczika, Nittymaki, Umberger, Beauchemin, Dov Grumet Morris, Potulny, Houle, Seidenberg, Sharp and on and on. Compare that to the Leafs or to St Louis, two similar teams in terms of payroll and draft order, and tell me Clarke has been a terrible GM.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Seeing as these two phenomenal young hockey players are only 1 year apart, i'd like input as to who will:

Score more goals in NHL - I have to say Nash with 41 goals already, watch out for 50 in the years to come
More points in NHL - Very close, Nash will outscore but Carter will probably get more assists
Better NHLer - great debate here but i'm going to have to go w/ Nasher

Can we wait until Carter has played an NHL game before we start mentioning him in the same breath as arguably the best young player in the game.