Richards or Kesler

[Juicer]

Ok, wait a minute here. Kesler played 10 minutes a night as a rookie 19 year old on the 4th line with no powerplay time, and only played in 28 games. There is absolutely no way you should be looking at the score sheet from those games for any sort of talent analysis.

I guess you missed the irony. Apparently, it is unfair for me to point out that Kesler wasn't able to produce at the NHL level when given the opportunity, but Kmad was insinuating Richards could not cut it at a higher level even though he was not given the opportunity. Whatever?! At Kesler's age, I didn't really expect much from him at the NHL level, and I was purposely being hard on him to counter the unfair criticism Richards was given.

As for the Richards/Kesler leadership arguement, Richards has been given a lot more respect in that area by scouts, media and he was the captain of what is probably the best WJC team of all time. Is their any reason to doubt this? I was not able to see Richards this year in the OHL playoffs, but he was apparently the best player in the playoffs by far.

Te size arguement is an obvious arguement, but Richards reminds me of a Mike Peca and Kesler looks more like a Shjon Podein. A hard worker, intense player, good skater, physical, not bad hands a great team guy, but at the end of the day he is a third line player with little finish around the net.

Not to mention he didn't put up many points in his time in the AHL that season either.

Does that help his case? Richards has 3pts in 2gms in the playoffs this year in his first shot at the higher level.

 

[cj]

Juicer, the only argument some have been making regarding Kesler playing in the AHL vs. Richards in the OHL is that Kesler is more proven. That's it. I have already stated that I don't believe that should be held against Richards but I don't think it's an unreasonable argument, do you?

As for the Podein-Kesler comparison. I'm trying my very best to be objective here, but I just don't get that comparison at all. Maybe you could expand on that? What about their games looks similar to you?

A couple of extra notes here:

-Having been a lurker here for quite some time before I signed up, I'm finding it very interesting how this debate has shifted. It wasn't too long ago that the argument for Richards over Kesler was that he apparently had much higher offensive potential. Now it's that he has much better leadership ability and grit. I'll take you guys' word for that since being on the west coast I haven't really seen enough of Richards to make a judgement. I just find it interesting.

-I like many was surprised by Kesler's production this season. But I recently looked over his career stats and it looks to me like last season was more out of line with the rest of his hockey career than this one.

 

[Juicer]

As for the Podein-Kesler comparison. I'm trying my very best to be objective here, but I just don't get that comparison at all. Maybe you could expand on that? What about their games looks similar to you?

I already touched on the comparson.

A hard worker, intense player, good skater, physical, not bad hands a great team guy, but at the end of the day he is a third line player with little finish around the net.

Podein is one of my all-time favourites, and I do not discredit his value. Another thing about Podein, is he did have decent hands until he got to the net. One of the most glaring comparisons for me is how they played along the boards, that is a great strength for both players. Kesler has a lot more offensive potential, but I am not certain he will reach that potential. But, I was comparing to the player they are now, potentially it could be a Gilmour/Primeau debate,which still favours Richards.

 

[Glacier]

I already touched on the comparson.

A hard worker, intense player, good skater, physical, not bad hands a great team guy, but at the end of the day he is a third line player with little finish around the net.

Aren't all third line players like this? This would mean that Podein is similar to a Linden, Klatt, or Primeau and 200 other nhl'ers.

 

[cj]

I'm not sure that description is a good one for Kesler really.

You're right about the hard working part but...

1. I wouldn't describe him as an intense player. He can dish out big hits, but he relies more on his positioning and speed to take opposing players out of the play. One factor that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is his hockey sense. The kid is just plain smart. He rarely makes a bad decision. He displayed more maturity on the ice this year than most of the veteran players on the Moose squad (something that was commented on by his coach and was a major factor in him being named the Moose MVP.)

2. He's not just a "good skater." He's an elite level skater.

3. I'm not convinced that the "little finish around the net" part is accurate. Certainly he's never going to be a superstar, but I don't think it's out of line to say he has enough skill to be a potential 20 goal scorer in the NHL.

 

[goodrev]

mike richards with the phantoms in the playoffs
2 games 1 goal 2 assists.... he CAN produce at this level, And he plays fantastic defense, is one of the best PK'ers on the ice, brings leadership grit and energy to the ice.... truthfully him putting in ANY offense is just icing on the cake. He may not have the skating skill, but he sure has everything that a team can ask for in a player.

 

[RobsonStreet]

ryan kesler with the moose in the playoffs
7 games 3 goals 3 assists.... also +8 (playoff lead) now. He played fantastic defense checking Ling and Wellwood in round one, is strong on the PK (witness the SH goal in game one vs. Rochester). He may not have top end offensive talent, but he sure has everything that a team can ask for in a player.

Sound similar? It's why this debate is interesting.

 

[LaVal]

I guess you missed the irony. Apparently, it is unfair for me to point out that Kesler wasn't able to produce at the NHL level when given the opportunity, but Kmad was insinuating Richards could not cut it at a higher level even though he was not given the opportunity. Whatever?! At Kesler's age, I didn't really expect much from him at the NHL level, and I was purposely being hard on him to counter the unfair criticism Richards was given.

I guess I did miss the irony, and I still am missing it. The point is Kesler has proven he can play in the NHL (and even though he didn't put up many points straight out of his draft, he still proved that he can belong as a checker), and Richards has not. Whether it's fair or not, it's still an area Kesler has an advantage over Richards.

Does that help his case? Richards has 3pts in 2gms in the playoffs this year in his first shot at the higher level.

Not very comparable. Kesler got his first "shot" immediately after being drafted. Richards continued to develope in the OHL for 2 seasons. And you are comparing 2 playoff games to a full season. If Richards would have made the jump 2 years ago to the AHL do you really think he'd put up a ton of points?

 

[Quiksilver*]

Not very comparable. Kesler got his first "shot" immediately after being drafted. Richards continued to develope in the OHL for 2 seasons.

What was Richards supposed to do? You say he continued to develop in the OHL, well thats only because of the NHL lockout, and AHL age restrictions.

Comparing their ages, it's safe to say they both got their first "shots" immediately.

 

[eddy]

I think Kesler just edges out Richards in being a better player, but If it were up to me i'd take Richards he's capatain material, isn't very big but plays with alot of heart and I really like his style, so i'd take him over Kesler. I see Richards as a poor mans Yzerman, the offence isn't there like it is with Yzerman but for just about everything else I find him to be similar.

 

[Liquidrage*]

The point is Kesler has proven he can play in the NHL

He hasn't proven squat. He was handed a spot and didn't do much with it.

He put up Peter White type numbers playing a Peter White like role. It's not bad nor good. Nor would at that age much be expected of him. But it's not like young guys haven't broke onto the scene in a similar role and done better. And we don't need to look at true blue-chip prospects either. Justin Williams was in a similar role on a similar team (quality wise) and performed much better at an even younger age.

That doesn't mean Kesler won't get better, or can't get better, or won't prove more.

But don't give me this "he's proven..."

He's proven he can at least be a dime a dozen player at the NHL level. WOW! It's a nothing proof what he's proven so far. Allmost any prospect could have proven as much being given a chance.

It isn't a knock on him, it's a knock on your "proven" bit. Different teams handle prospects differently. And within an organization they handle different prospects differently. To act as if 2 goals in 28 games and a minus rating on a good team playing 10 minutes a night is proving anything other then the team wanted to give him a chance you have low standards.

 

[FlyersFan10*]

mike richards with the phantoms in the playoffs
2 games 1 goal 2 assists.... he CAN produce at this level, And he plays fantastic defense, is one of the best PK'ers on the ice, brings leadership grit and energy to the ice.... truthfully him putting in ANY offense is just icing on the cake. He may not have the skating skill, but he sure has everything that a team can ask for in a player.

I don't get why people underrate Mike's offensive game, like we should be so lucky to get any kind of production out of Mike. If you take a look at his career in junior, he's been a proven point producer. Proven. I don't see why people dismiss his offensive game. I think if anything, because he's so good defensively, it won't surprise me if he is used on an offensive line where his defensive presence will go along way in creating turnovers and goals. The guy is just that good. I hear all the flaws about his skating, yet he seemed to do really well skating wise at the world juniors and he seems to be skating just fine in the AHL.

 

[LaVal]

He hasn't proven squat. He was handed a spot and didn't do much with it.

I guess you didn't watch him. He has proven if nothing else he can be a checker, and although he earned a roster spot in camp was sent down so he could develope his offensive game, which he has been doing.

Whether you like it or not, Richards hasn't proven he can even do that. I'm positive he'll be able to, but until he does we can't call him proven. So I will give you the "he's proven..." argument over and over thank you.

 

[Liquidrage*]

And it's meaningless every time you use it.

Hell, 1st of all, it was just 28 games. Which means you *still* don't know what he can do over a full season.

Second, he was put on the ice in favorable postions. He wasn't on the ice in pressure time.

Third, he didn't score basically at all.

Fourth, he still managed to be a minus on a very good team. And he wasn't getting matched up against the other teams "best" or anything.

Yes, he proved he can playing mediocre hockey over the course of 28 games.

Grats...

 

[hockeyfan125]

And it's meaningless every time you use it.

Hell, 1st of all, it was just 28 games. Which means you *still* don't know what he can do over a full season.

Second, he was put on the ice in favorable postions. He wasn't on the ice in pressure time.

Third, he didn't score basically at all.

Fourth, he still managed to be a minus on a very good team. And he wasn't getting matched up against the other teams "best" or anything.

Yes, he proved he can playing mediocre hockey over the course of 28 games.

Grats...

Watch the Moose playoff games.

 

[Liquidrage*]

Watch the Moose playoff games.

That not what we're talking about.

We're simple talking about what he's already proven at the NHL level as of now.

 

[hockeyfan125]

That not what we're talking about.

We're simple talking about what he's already proven at the NHL level as of now.

He was solid in his call-ups, with minimal scoring and minimal ice time. This year was huge for his development.

 

[cj]

Hmm...I'm trying to figure out why this debate has become so contentious all of a sudden.

I haven't seen anyone ragging on Richards. In fact the majority of the comments on here about him are positive ones. The only arguments I've seen so far is that he's smaller and doesn't skate as well as Kesler (both of which are true) and that Kesler has proven more at the professional level than Richards has (also true.) I think it is extremely debatable whether those are valid reasons to choose Kesler over Richards (especially the last one) but I'm not sure why those arguments are getting Flyers fans up in arms. Certainly everyone recognises that Richards did not have the same opportunity to go pro as early as Kesler did. It still doesn't make the argument less true. Am I missing something here?

 

[RobsonStreet]

That not what we're talking about.

We're simple talking about what he's already proven at the NHL level as of now.

The very fact that he played games in the NHL last season is above and beyond what anyone expected after the draft. He surprised a heck of a lot of people in training camp and earned his time. So yes, the simple fact that he cracked the nucks roster in his first year as a pro speaks volumes.

 

[hockeyfan125]

Kesler update:

AHL Playoffs:

8 games played, 8 points, and a stellar +10.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

Kesler's offensive potential is phenomenally underrated around these parts.

 

[Eb0la11]

I really wish Canucks fans would stop praising their one semi blue chip prospect, I mean we alreayd hear enough about how good the big league team is and how they are perrenial cup contenders (which they pretty close to are) but when it comes to prospects, you guys are WAYYY behind so lets just leave it be. Richards blows Kesler out of the water.

 

[monster_bertuzzi]

I really wish Canucks fans would stop praising their one semi blue chip prospect, I mean we alreayd hear enough about how good the big league team is and how they are perrenial cup contenders (which they pretty close to are) but when it comes to prospects, you guys are WAYYY behind so lets just leave it be. Richards blows Kesler out of the water.

Nice post.

 

[hockeyfan125]

I really wish Canucks fans would stop praising their one semi blue chip prospect, I mean we alreayd hear enough about how good the big league team is and how they are perrenial cup contenders (which they pretty close to are) but when it comes to prospects, you guys are WAYYY behind so lets just leave it be. Richards blows Kesler out of the water.

Let me guess..you watched Richards during the WJC (only time ever) and have never seen Kesler?

 

[sunb]

I really wish Canucks fans would stop praising their one semi blue chip prospect, I mean we alreayd hear enough about how good the big league team is and how they are perrenial cup contenders (which they pretty close to are) but when it comes to prospects, you guys are WAYYY behind so lets just leave it be. Richards blows Kesler out of the water.

I agree with everything that was said but the last line is totally false. Richards and Kesler are very even in terms of value and ability and if anything, it is in the favor of the latter.