Research Thread for NHL Award and All-star Voting

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
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Funny to see the rather large discrepancy between Karlsson and Doughty for the Norris and AST voting. Makes me think that a lot of them gave it to Doughty as a career award, since there is no reason for such a major flip flop in voting when it's the same guys voting. Anyone got another reason for that?

And as usual, nice to see that certain PHWA voters are qualified for voting as is evidenced by their decisions on the positional ballots.

It's the same guys voting?
Not sure... I mean... Doughty missed on the 1st AST last season while finishing 2nd in Norris voting (flipflopping with PK Subban that time around)
 

Doctor No

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Oct 26, 2005
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Funny to see the rather large discrepancy between Karlsson and Doughty for the Norris and AST voting.

Can you elaborate? I'm not seeing a discrepancy.

Each was Doughty #1 and Karlsson #2.

Doughty won 1254 to 1020 (+23%) in the Norris, and 670 to 633 (+6%) in the All-Star voting. If *that* is the discrepancy, then I attribute most of it to the different point systems used, and that voters for the AST probably think more in terms of "top two" (since there are two defensemen on an all-star team) instead of "top one".
 

Sprague Cleghorn

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Aug 14, 2013
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It's the same guys voting?
Not sure... I mean... Doughty missed on the 1st AST last season while finishing 2nd in Norris voting (flipflopping with PK Subban that time around)

The PHWA votes on both if I'm not mistaken.

Can you elaborate? I'm not seeing a discrepancy.

Each was Doughty #1 and Karlsson #2.

Doughty won 1254 to 1020 (+23%) in the Norris, and 670 to 633 (+6%) in the All-Star voting. If *that* is the discrepancy, then I attribute most of it to the different point systems used, and that voters for the AST probably think more in terms of "top two" (since there are two defensemen on an all-star team) instead of "top one".

I should have specified in 1st place voting.

For the AST voting, Karlsson received 106 1st place votes, while Doughty received 125 votes.

For the Norris, Karlsson received 46 1st place votes compared to Doughty's 93, almost double the amount.
 

overpass

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Jun 7, 2007
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Funny to see the rather large discrepancy between Karlsson and Doughty for the Norris and AST voting. Makes me think that a lot of them gave it to Doughty as a career award, since there is no reason for such a major flip flop in voting when it's the same guys voting. Anyone got another reason for that?

And as usual, nice to see that certain PHWA voters are qualified for voting as is evidenced by their decisions on the positional ballots.

Norris voting allows voters to distinguish between 1 and 2. AST voting does not.

Norris voting top 2 votes:

Doughty 130
Karlsson 100
Letang 32
Burns 29
Other 8

AST voting top 2 votes (i.e. first team votes)

Doughty 125
Karlsson 106
Letang 28
Burns 25
Other 9

There was a difference of about 5 net voters who put Karlsson in the top 2 for AST voting and replaced him with Doughty for Norris voting. Not much of a discrepancy at all.

The difference in the voting was mostly because Doughty and Karlsson were a clear top 2 at the position, and AST voting for defence does not allow voters to distinguish between 1 and 2 while Norris voting does.
 

ImporterExporter

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Karlsson 9th in the Hart is an absolute joke. That team is dead last in the league without him and probably could be beat by some of the AHL clubs out there. I get it, the Sens missed the playoffs. But he literally carried that entire team, the whole year. Put up all kinds of once in a generation (or more) type numbers.

Karlsson doesn't control the FO. Players aren't responsible for the quality, or lack of it, on the roster. I get that making the playoffs should carry a little weight, but enough to put a guy like EK at 9th? Absurd.
 
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Sprague Cleghorn

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Norris voting allows voters to distinguish between 1 and 2. AST voting does not.

Norris voting top 2 votes:

Doughty 130
Karlsson 100
Letang 32
Burns 29
Other 8

AST voting top 2 votes (i.e. first team votes)

Doughty 125
Karlsson 106
Letang 28
Burns 25
Other 9

There was a difference of about 5 net voters who put Karlsson in the top 2 for AST voting and replaced him with Doughty for Norris voting. Not much of a discrepancy at all.

The difference in the voting was mostly because Doughty and Karlsson were a clear top 2 at the position, and AST voting for defence does not allow voters to distinguish between 1 and 2 while Norris voting does.

Well, that clears thing up. I did not know about that.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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- Joe Pavelski earned multiple votes at all three forward positions this year. None of the votes that were mis-cast at LW or centre materially affected the rankings for him or anyone else.

still, 3rd, 6th, and 8th is a pretty good number of votes at other positions, even if he only got two for LW.

i wonder what the best average is someone who got votes at all three forward position?
 

Sanf

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Sep 8, 2012
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I looked and this was the first season since 2002-2003 that Finnish goalie didn´t get single vote in All-Star or Vezina. Rask had a bit of offseason and I believe he is there for many seasons, but to be honest I don´t see many of our current prospect reaching close to that level.. but that is not really talk for history forum.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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A random observation:

In 2008, Alexander Ovechkin was left off one Hart ballot completely. He had 128 first-place votes, 4 second-place votes, and 1 third-place vote (133 votes total). There were 134 votes in total. Was this a careless omission, or did someone truly believe he wasn't one of the top five most valuable players in the league?

Similarly, he received 133 votes (all first-place) for the left-wing all-star position. Again, there were 134 votes available, which meant he was left off the ballot entirely by one voter. (Before someone suggests that somebody voted for him accidentally at C or RW, I double-checked and confirmed that wasn`t the case). We haven't had any unanimous all-stars since Iginla in 2002.
 

Scratchy

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Nov 14, 2011
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It's tough to vote now, so many games. Subban didn't deserve it and Lidstrom didn't deserve his last one, two huge errors by voters. Brad Park is easily the most deserving player to never have won the Norris, then Salming, but Weber has a strong argument to be third. Park had Orr, Salming the anti-Swede bias, Weber just got robbed once or twice.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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A random observation:

In 2008, Alexander Ovechkin was left off one Hart ballot completely. He had 128 first-place votes, 4 second-place votes, and 1 third-place vote (133 votes total). There were 134 votes in total. Was this a careless omission, or did someone truly believe he wasn't one of the top five most valuable players in the league?

Similarly, he received 133 votes (all first-place) for the left-wing all-star position. Again, there were 134 votes available, which meant he was left off the ballot entirely by one voter. (Before someone suggests that somebody voted for him accidentally at C or RW, I double-checked and confirmed that wasn`t the case). We haven't had any unanimous all-stars since Iginla in 2002.

The obvious answer is the correct one, one voter was not capable of setting personal bias aside. Luckily, in a sample of 134 one or two bad apples can't effect the voting too much.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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A random observation:

In 2008, Alexander Ovechkin was left off one Hart ballot completely. He had 128 first-place votes, 4 second-place votes, and 1 third-place vote (133 votes total). There were 134 votes in total. Was this a careless omission, or did someone truly believe he wasn't one of the top five most valuable players in the league?

Similarly, he received 133 votes (all first-place) for the left-wing all-star position. Again, there were 134 votes available, which meant he was left off the ballot entirely by one voter. (Before someone suggests that somebody voted for him accidentally at C or RW, I double-checked and confirmed that wasn`t the case). We haven't had any unanimous all-stars since Iginla in 2002.



this trend did not change this year

99 first place votes for mcdavid, one spoiler for crosby

same voter who didn’t vote for ovechkin way back when?
 
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Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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this trend did not change this year

99 first place votes for mcdavid, one spoiler for crosby

same voter who didn’t vote for ovechkin way back when?


I noticed the same thing. Someone ruined it by voting for Crosby (who had a great year, of course, but really had no case for being an all-star over McDavid).

You're right - Iginla was the last unanimous all-star. There were only 60 voters then. Less likely for one person with an unconventional opinion to cast a ballot when you have fewer voters in general.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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I noticed the same thing. Someone ruined it by voting for Crosby (who had a great year, of course, but really had no case for being an all-star over McDavid).

You're right - Iginla was the last unanimous all-star. There were only 60 voters then. Less likely for one person with an unconventional opinion to cast a ballot when you have fewer voters in general.

another close one was kucherov two years ago

167 first place votes for kuch, 1 for pat kane

kane had a really great year and it would have been defensible up to the 3/4 mark, with kane right up there still pushing kuch in the scoring race. but then kane really really tailed off in the last 20 and chicago missed the playoffs.
 

Michael Farkas

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Jun 28, 2006
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Sorry if this has been discussed, but the search functionality doesn't work on the board anymore...

I think I found a discrepant take on the 1928 Hart Trophy voting in the NY Times...

NY Times Mar 28, 1928 -

Morenz received 123 of 140 votes.
Captain Worters was second with 82.
Eddie Shore 78
George Hay 73
Ching Johnson 31
Frank Nighbor 28
 

BM67

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Sorry if this has been discussed, but the search functionality doesn't work on the board anymore...

I think I found a discrepant take on the 1928 Hart Trophy voting in the NY Times...

NY Times Mar 28, 1928 -

Morenz received 123 of 140 votes.
Captain Worters was second with 82.
Eddie Shore 78
George Hay 73
Ching Johnson 31
Frank Nighbor 28

HART: (415)
1. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 123
2. Roy Worters, Pit G 82
3. Eddie Shore, Bos D 78
4. George Hay, Det LW 73
5. Ching Johnson, NYR D 31
6. Frank Nighbor, Ott C 28

Looks the same as we have already. There was a note on the Byng voting, as the NHL pdf file results differed from the newspaper.

LADY BYNG: (471)
1. Frank Boucher, NYR C 98
2. George Hay, Det LW 81
3. Howie Morenz, Mtl C 65 Not listed in Montreal Gazette.
4. Frank Nighbor, Ott C 61
5. Harry Oliver, Bos RW 59
6. Normie Himes, NYA C 57
7. Herb Gardiner, Mtl D 50
 
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reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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To fill in the missing gaps for 1974-75:

Hart Trophy (the missing 18 votes after the top 10):

Gil Perreault 5
Rene Robert 3
Ron Schock 3
Borje Salming 3
Pete Mahovlich 2
Jean Pronovost 1
Don Luce 1

Calder Trophy ( missing 39 votes after the top 5):

Wilf Paiement 10
Dave Hrechkosy 7
Rick Middleton 6
Clark Gillies 6
Gary Bromley 4
Glenn Resch 3
Doug Risebrough 2
Mario Tremblay 1

Lady Byng (missing 185 votes after top 5):

Gil Perreault 19
Rod Gilbert 18
Ed Westfall 14
Don Luce 14
Craig Ramsay 13
Jacques Lemaire 13
Borje Salming 10
Dave Keon 10
Jean Ratelle 9
Syl Apps Jr. 8
Ron Schock 8
Danny Grant 8
Gregg Sheppard 6
Terry Crisp 6
Pit Martin 5
Denis Potvin 5
Ron Ellis 5
Bill Fairbairn 5
Garry Unger 3
Stan Mikita 3
Rey Comeau 1
Jim Lorentz 1
Dave Burrows 1

All star Defence:

Here's where things get confusing. This was the original post:

DEFENSE: (932/972) Bobby Orr 270; Denis Potvin 202; Guy LaPointe 166; Borje Salming 76; Brad Park 38; Serge Savard 32; Bill White 25; Carol Vadnais 25; Terry Harper 21; Jerry Korab 19; Bob Murdoch 17; Larry Robinson 10; Jim Schoenfeld 8; Jim Watson 6; Ron Stackhouse 6; Joe Watson 4; Bob Dailey 4; Ed Van Impe 3

Additions to that list are:

Don Awrey 18
Dave Burrows 10
Dick Redmond 2
Andre DuPont 2
Bill Hajt 1
Randy Manery 1
Jim Neilson 1
Tom Bladon 1
Nick Beverley 1

That would account for 37 of the missing 40 points, but there also some discrepancies:

Larry Robinson has 13 points instead of 10
Jim Watson has 4 points instead of 6
Ron Stackhouse has 0 points instead of 6
Joe Watson has 0 points instead of 4

So that leaves 12 missing points. If we leave the scores for Stackhouse and the Watson's as they were, then everything matches. I'd be inclined to think that's the correct voting. After all, it wouldn't make sense for Stackhouse to get a Norris vote but no All-Star.

All Star LW (12 votes over,):

The order doesn't change, but it looks like Danny Grant had 81 points instead of 83, and Bill Barber had 36 instead of 46, which would come to the correct total.


Source: The Hockey News July 1, 1975
 

reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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1976-77 missing gaps:

Hart (27 points missing after top 10)

Ken Dryden 4
Gerry Cheevers 3
Bryan Trottier 3
Rick MacLeish 3
Wilf Paiement 3
Steve Shutt 2
Butch Goring 1
Glenn Resch 1
Tim Young 1
Rod Selling 1
Serge Savard 1

There are still 4 missing votes

Norris (24 votes missing after top 5):

Brad Park 19
Jim Schoenfeld 3
Gary Sargaent 1
Ian Turnbull 1

Calder (29 missing votes after top 5):

Paul Gardner 21
Stan Jonathan 3
Don Edwards 2
Bill Nyrop 1
Greg Smith 1
Richard Mulhern

Lady Byng (116 missing votes after the top 5):

Guy Charron 15
Peter McNab 14
Jean Pronovost 11
Jacques Lemaire 11
Gil Perreault 8
Rod Gilbert 7
Dennis Maruk 5
Bryan Trottier 5
Craig Ramsay 5
Yvon Cournoyer 5
Red Berenson 5
Ed Westfall 4
Steve Shutt 3
Johnny Bucyk 3
Bob MacMillan 3
Don Luce 3
Bill Fairbairn 3
Gerry Meehan 1
Rod Selling 1
Walt McKechnie 1
Inge Hammarstrom 1
Gregg Sheppard 1
Syl Apps Jr. 1


I'm really starting to hate the Lady Byng Trophy

Source: The Hockey News July, 1977
 
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reckoning

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Jan 4, 2005
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A couple of other odd notes:

Mike Gartner did indeed receive 5 points in the 1979-80 Calder voting, even he should have been ineligible for the award since he was in the WHA the year before.

Clark Gillies is listed as having one point in the 1981-82 All Star defence voting, even though he wasn't a defenceman. I always suspected this vote was supposed to be for Curt Giles, and maybe got incorrectly attributed to Gillies, but it clearly says Clark Gillies on the voting list.
 

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