Rumor: Report: Red Wings, Maple Leafs expected to revisit Phaneuf trade during offseason

[aFish]

Which is likely the time they're rebuilding.

If they land McDavid, he could quickly turn things around the way Crosby did for PIT. Not likely, but possible. They could be back in a playoff picture within 3 years, if they draft properly.

Not going to debate with you the fact that TO retaining 50% is a ludicrous idea, because it simply is. Especially to help a division rival.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

toronto retaining salary on any phaneuf to detroit deal would be done solely because detroit felt it couldnt pay its own electricity bills

thats how useless asking toronto to retain salary would be

1. we financially dont need them to
2. it does in fact increase the return price

moving/including weiss is basically the exact same as them retaining salary(about 4.5 million worth)

leaf fans are as clueless as all other hf board fans when it comes to rumours and trade demands of players off their team

phaneuf would or will be traded for a pckg like
-weiss
-smith
-jurco
-mckee/3rd rd pick

for
-phaneuf
-some college level prospect nobody has heard of

it gets toronto out form under the contract while adding two young players to build around during their full tear it down rebuild while adding a veteran centre/warm body

 

[traffic cone]

toronto retaining salary on any phaneuf to detroit deal would be done solely because detroit felt it couldnt pay its own electricity bills

thats how useless asking toronto to retain salary would be

1. we financially dont need them to
2. it does in fact increase the return price

moving/including weiss is basically the exact same as them retaining salary(about 4.5 million worth)

leaf fans are as clueless as all other hf board fans when it comes to rumours and trade demands of players off their team

phaneuf would or will be traded for a pckg like
-weiss
-smith
-jurco
-mckee/3rd rd pick

for
-phaneuf
-some college level prospect nobody has heard of

it gets toronto out form under the contract while adding two young players to build around during their full tear it down rebuild while adding a veteran centre/warm body

We do need them to when considering the cap hit.

 

[Ricelund]

toronto retaining salary on any phaneuf to detroit deal would be done solely because detroit felt it couldnt pay its own electricity bills

thats how useless asking toronto to retain salary would be

1. we financially dont need them to
2. it does in fact increase the return price

moving/including weiss is basically the exact same as them retaining salary(about 4.5 million worth)

leaf fans are as clueless as all other hf board fans when it comes to rumours and trade demands of players off their team

phaneuf would or will be traded for a pckg like
-weiss
-smith
-jurco
-mckee/3rd rd pick

for
-phaneuf
-some college level prospect nobody has heard of

it gets toronto out form under the contract while adding two young players to build around during their full tear it down rebuild while adding a veteran centre/warm body

I don't think it's as much about the actual salary as it is about the salary structure for Detroit. They like to slot guys in at certain salaries depending on their value to the team. Phaneuf isn't better than Kronwall, so they'd prefer their numbers to be similar.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I don't think it's as much about the actual salary as it is about the salary structure for Detroit. They like to slot guys in at certain salaries depending on their value to the team. Phaneuf isn't better than Kronwall, so they'd prefer their numbers to be similar.

while i agree that detroit does have a salary structure, at some point during kronwalls contract if we want to improve the defence a player will be brought in or signed who is paid more then him(annually) otherwise their isnt a chnace in he.. the defence can actually get better(substantially)

i would honestly say dion is about on par with kronwall, thats neither a dig on nick or a boast for dion.

We do need them to when considering the cap hit.

not at all

if weiss and smith are part of the deal(and it sounds like we wanted weiss in and toronto wanted smith in) that right their next year is about 6 million in salary cap space

 

[traffic cone]

not at all

if weiss and smith are part of the deal(and it sounds like we wanted weiss in and toronto wanted smith in) that right their next year is about 6 million in salary cap space

We are contending for many years. It's not just the next year. You don't want to avoid cap hits that go further than just the next year.

 

[aFish]

While the salary structure thing use to be true, I'm not sure it applies anymore. I mean, Wings tendered some pretty serious offers to some UFA d-men last year, none of which would've been better than Kronwall.

I think they realize Kronner is on a good contract, and to expect to get better while not paying anyone above said contract would be next to impossible.

 

[AD1066]

Personality / character aside, I think Phaneuf is a better defenseman than he gets credit for around here.

He's never had a legitimate #2 partner during his time in Toronto, and the Kessel-Bozak-JVR line is a disaster defensively. Add in the Toronto media and you've got a pretty thankless job.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

We are contending for many years. It's not just the next year. You don't want to avoid cap hits that go further than just the next year.

while i 100% agree phaneufs deal goes for beyond next season, weiss' does as well AND unless we move smith then it means we will resign him which i would bet would also be for more then just next season

if we want to improve the team its liekly going to require having cap hits that are more then just one year at a time

 

[TCNorthstars]

While the salary structure thing use to be true, I'm not sure it applies anymore. I mean, Wings tendered some pretty serious offers to some UFA d-men last year, none of which would've been better than Kronwall.

I think they realize Kronner is on a good contract, and to expect to get better while not paying anyone above said contract would be next to impossible.

Kronwall's contract is better than good and it would be ridiculous to base any type of cap structure around his hit.

 

[14ari13]

The odd man rushes were caused by poor defensive support more so than Dion not knowing when to hit. A big hit here in Detroit would likely be aided by a proper back-check. Think back to when Kronwall was a second pairing d-man here, and when he was still kronwalling people. Very rarely did they lead to odd man rushes because Detroit's forwards back check like crazy.



This simply isn't true. Dion's put up many season's of over 200 shots per. The fact that most of his start times in TO are in the defensive zone has really hurt those particular stats recently, but in Detroit, as a second pairing d-man, he'd certainly have many more o-zone starts, theoretically leading to more shots.



All hearsay leading back to his Calgary days. There is nothing to suggest this to be true now that he's in TO. In fact, teammates have recently come to his defense with the media. Why would they do that if he was a locker room cancer?

As far as being a terrible leader, it would be moot here, as he would not be relied upon to play that role.

Big hits can often lead to Oddman rushes, as you say, it is for his teammates to cover up.

We do need them to when considering the cap hit.

Weiss 5M and Smith 1-4M, as Smith will sign a new deal anyway, makes it more than Dion's 7.

I don't think it's as much about the actual salary as it is about the salary structure for Detroit. They like to slot guys in at certain salaries depending on their value to the team. Phaneuf isn't better than Kronwall, so they'd prefer their numbers to be similar.

This is a good point.

 

[Retire91]

Salary retention is probably what kills the deal. It would be dumb for Toronto to retain salary, and it would be dumb for detroit to make the trade without salary retained. Phenuf is not worth 7 million and that cap hit for the value is going to decline progressivly for 6 more seasons. The contract alone makes this deal too risky to take. I think another team will offer more and be willing to take on a bad contract. Wings should not be looking at bad contracts. Both teams will probably kick the tires and ultimatly never come to a deal.

The only way Toronto considers salary retention would be if Dion exercises his no movement clause and limits trades to contendors. If only contendors are in the mix they probably all ask for salary retention, to which Toronto will want higher teir assets like first rounders and top prospects. Another commodity I don't think Detroit should give up even with Salary retained.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The odd man rushes were caused by poor defensive support more so than Dion not knowing when to hit. A big hit here in Detroit would likely be aided by a proper back-check. Think back to when Kronwall was a second pairing d-man here, and when he was still kronwalling people. Very rarely did they lead to odd man rushes because Detroit's forwards back check like crazy.



This simply isn't true. Dion's put up many season's of over 200 shots per. The fact that most of his start times in TO are in the defensive zone has really hurt those particular stats recently, but in Detroit, as a second pairing d-man, he'd certainly have many more o-zone starts, theoretically leading to more shots.



All hearsay leading back to his Calgary days. There is nothing to suggest this to be true now that he's in TO. In fact, teammates have recently come to his defense with the media. Why would they do that if he was a locker room cancer?

As far as being a terrible leader, it would be moot here, as he would not be relied upon to play that role.

Yeah because hes definetly suppose to hit in the Offensive Zone right? while a boston player is sitting right up on the boards.


Phanuef has 2 or 3 goals.. And your saying he can hit the net? Lol. Thats sad... Oh wait your probably going to say thats his team right? Goals are on the player. Not the team... The assists are the team scoring/not scoring... Ericsson has the same amount or 1 less last time i checked.. And he cannot hit the net at all.. So please tell me how Dions shot is so good

Big hits can often lead to Oddman rushes, as you say, it is for his teammates to cover up.

Its only on the teammates if he hits in the Neuteral zone.. or somehow it happens in his own



In the play against Boston.. He hits a Boston player.. In their zone... Thats not really on the team.. Thats on him

 

[BinCookin]

Its only on the teammates if he hits in the Neuteral zone.. or somehow it happens in his own



In the play against Boston.. He hits a Boston player.. In their zone... Thats not really on the team.. Thats on him

I am not convinced Phaneuf is the best possible D man for us to aim for.

If anyone else can be had for under 7 mil. I would prefer that.

If Toronto retains money, maybe, but even then, I would prefer to pay a for a better player. Sadly NONE will be available in FA i bet.

 

[aFish]

Yeah because hes definetly suppose to hit in the Offensive Zone right? while a boston player is sitting right up on the boards.

Phanuef has 2 or 3 goals.. And your saying he can hit the net? Lol. Thats sad... Oh wait your probably going to say thats his team right? Goals are on the player. Not the team... The assists are the team scoring/not scoring... Ericsson has the same amount or 1 less last time i checked.. And he cannot hit the net at all.. So please tell me how Dions shot is so good

Its only on the teammates if he hits in the Neuteral zone.. or somehow it happens in his own

In the play against Boston.. He hits a Boston player.. In their zone... Thats not really on the team.. Thats on him

Again, the vast majority of Kronwall's old hits happened in the offensive zone. Go do a quick youtube search of his top hits to see for yourself. Rarely did they ever lead to odd mad rushes because Detroit's support system was there to prevent that from happening.

Puck luck goes a long way when accounting for goals; lack thereof is not always on the individual player, specifically for a defenseman. Creating space, opening lanes, delivering crisp passes, screening the goalie, etc... are all of these things on the shooter?

Phanuef has 2 or 3 goals.. And your saying he can hit the net? Lol. Thats sad... Oh wait your probably going to say thats his team right? Goals are on the player. Not the team... The assists are the team scoring/not scoring... Ericsson has the same amount or 1 less last time i checked.. And he cannot hit the net at all.. So please tell me how Dions shot is so good

For the record, Dion has 103 shots so far this year. Kronwall only has 79. But go on believing Dion can't hit the net because of his low goal count.

 

[jaster]

He is a cancer in the locker room... Terrible Leader... Cant play in his own zone

All hearsay leading back to his Calgary days. There is nothing to suggest this to be true now that he's in TO. In fact, teammates have recently come to his defense with the media. Why would they do that if he was a locker room cancer?

As far as being a terrible leader, it would be moot here, as he would not be relied upon to play that role.

For the record, I do not believe he is a cancer, but it is indeed an interesting topic to me. Because watching 24/7, man, there's not a whole lot off the ice that says "leader" with him. Frankly, the fact that he's an NHL captain is somewhat laughable to me; and helps make Toronto's woes not at all surprising. Blind leading the blind type of thing.

In the end, the fact that he wouldn't be a captain here, wouldn't play on the top pair, and would have fewer minutes than in Toronto would all go a long way toward possibly making him a valuable piece. But I would still bet against it. And it still wouldn't be worth it to me, given his cap hit, unless Toronto did in fact eat a bunch of it AND we still were able to unload Weiss.

 

[pucky]

If they land McDavid, he could quickly turn things around the way Crosby did for PIT. Not likely, but possible. They could be back in a playoff picture within 3 years, if they draft properly.

Not going to debate with you the fact that TO retaining 50% is a ludicrous idea, because it simply is. Especially to help a division rival.

The Leafs had to trade more core guys but they didn't. I don't think they are really tanking per se or what would have helped more and gave them a better position in the standings to increase their odds. Most Leaf fans think they are tanking and will clean house. They are foolish, though. The Leafs organization only cares about $$ and have never really cleaned house. Anyway, enough about that topic...

Personality / character aside, I think Phaneuf is a better defenseman than he gets credit for around here.

He's never had a legitimate #2 partner during his time in Toronto, and the Kessel-Bozak-JVR line is a disaster defensively. Add in the Toronto media and you've got a pretty thankless job.

No, Phaneuf is a lousy dman. Whether you pay him 7 mill. or 5 mill. He's lazy, is very poor positionally wise and a poor skater especially in his own zone. He has awful hockey sense and cannot cover players. For his size, he is not very tough - if you push him around, he caves. You can look at the Bruins series playoff not too long ago.

Anyway, if you are smart, you will not go anywhere near #3. You'll regret it, if they do.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Again, the vast majority of Kronwall's old hits happened in the offensive zone. Go do a quick youtube search of his top hits to see for yourself. Rarely did they ever lead to odd mad rushes because Detroit's support system was there to prevent that from happening.

Puck luck goes a long way when accounting for goals; lack thereof is not always on the individual player, specifically for a defenseman. Creating space, opening lanes, delivering crisp passes, screening the goalie, etc... are all of these things on the shooter?



For the record, Dion has 103 shots so far this year. Kronwall only has 79. But go on believing Dion can't hit the net because of his low goal count.

Kronwalls hits when he knows his fowards are on the backcheck

In the Boston game, He just runs over the guy who has the puck with Kessel in the Ozone (just lost the puck) and his teamate screening the goalie (still thinking kessel has the puck) Phanuef doesnt know when to hit... Not to mention countless times he hits his own players and bumps into them (He runs into JVR)


Ok..He has shots.. Theyre obviouvsly shooting into the right in the middle of the goalies jersey.. he has 3 goals this season.... 2 goals are on the Powerplay.. .. That means he has 1 even strength goal in fifty six games... You can not honestly believe he has had bad puck luck for that long.


1 even strength goal (maybe Short handed). 3 goals total
Kronwall 8 goals and 79 shots. More goals and less shots (not to mention that he thinks pass first, always tries to trick people thinking he will slap it)

Danny D 2 goals, 75 shots (1 less than Phanuef)

Jonathan Ericsson same amount of goals.. And I actually watch him alot.. He CANT hit the net. for real. and he has 71 shots.. This is obviouvsly him just shooting right into the goalies chest. For an easy save.

Kyle Quincey.. same amount of goals

Jakub Kindl.. More goals and alot less games

Brendan Smith.. More goals

Xaiver Ouellet. 1 less goal in 20 games

Marek Zidlicky. 1 less goal and he has only played with us for 4 games

Marchenko 1 goal alot less games

They dont want him for his Offensive Production.... The thing with Toronto is that they score alot... And allow more... Toronto does not have a bad offense... they jsut have a garbage garbage garbage defense. which is why they suck... So his point total WILL NOT change much at all



Going back to the shot thing

Dion = 103 shots.


Just go look at the nhl.com page... ALOT of the dmen have more shots then him... And some of them arent known for their offense..

So no... He really cant hit the net alot.

The Leafs had to trade more core guys but they didn't. I don't think they are really tanking per se or what would have helped more and gave them a better position in the standings to increase their odds. Most Leaf fans think they are tanking and will clean house. They are foolish, though. The Leafs organization only cares about $$ and have never really cleaned house. Anyway, enough about that topic...


No, Phaneuf is a lousy dman. Whether you pay him 7 mill. or 5 mill. He's lazy, is very poor positionally wise and a poor skater especially in his own zone. He has awful hockey sense and cannot cover players. For his size, he is not very tough - if you push him around, he caves. You can look at the Bruins series playoff not too long ago.

Anyway, if you are smart, you will not go anywhere near #3. You'll regret it, if they do.

Phanuef CAN be a top 4 dman.. The question is.. Does he want too? You should be playing amazing even if you are on a bad team. no matter what you are a professional


I dont think he wants to be a top 2/4 dman

otherwise more teams would be begging for him And Detroit wouldnt be the front runners up to get him since they dont like to trade the top prospects.

For the record, I do not believe he is a cancer, but it is indeed an interesting topic to me. Because watching 24/7, man, there's not a whole lot off the ice that says "leader" with him. Frankly, the fact that he's an NHL captain is somewhat laughable to me; and helps make Toronto's woes not at all surprising. Blind leading the blind type of thing.

In the end, the fact that he wouldn't be a captain here, wouldn't play on the top pair, and would have fewer minutes than in Toronto would all go a long way toward possibly making him a valuable piece. But I would still bet against it. And it still wouldn't be worth it to me, given his cap hit, unless Toronto did in fact eat a bunch of it AND we still were able to unload Weiss.

Id happy take Phanuef if they can eat almost half of the salary and we can unload Weiss and Kindl.

Hes not worse then Kindl. Hes probably alittle bit better then Ericsson (maybe)

Hes not better then Kronner... Not better then DD and Quincey (in the dzone)
Top 4 dman

Though I still would go after someone else... That contract length is hideous for him


Id rather go for a Free Agent dman.. Overpay if you have too... Only a little though.. Dont pay Boychuck like 8 mil.... Cap is Rising.. We shouldnt be paying people less then Kronner even if they arent as good (Kronners having an off year, and is pretty old) Kronner wont throw a hissy fit about it either... No reason to not overpay a little for something that you need when you have the cap space

 

[Winger98]

Phanuef CAN be a top 4 dman.. The question is.. Does he want too? You should be playing amazing even if you are on a bad team. no matter what you are a professional


I dont think he wants to be a top 2/4 dman

otherwise more teams would be begging for him And Detroit wouldnt be the front runners up to get him since they dont like to trade the top prospects.

On the other hand, it might be the best time to trade for him. His value is low, and it Toronto appears to be very motivated to make a deal. If he comes over, and plays close to his abilities, we could end up getting him for a steal and seriously upgrading our blueline. And when looking at the rumored asking prices for other D we've chased...well, rolling the die on a maybe like Phaneuf is a bit more appealing from that angle, too.

From my angle, I don't like our blueline, and the kids are still at least a year away from getting ice time and probably two years away (minimum) from being guys we are entirely comfortable leaning on for the playoffs. At that point, Datsyuk is on the edge of retirement, and Z and Kronwall are a couple of years closer to the twilight of their own careers. If we can grab Phaneuf for a reasonable price (or better yet a low one), I have to be for it.

It's also a bit of insurance in case we can't sign Green in free agency. And I don't think getting Phaneuf means Kenny will sit on his hands when/if Green hits the open market, either. As I said, though, I don't like our blueline, I probably dislike it more than most, so I might be more open to bringing in Phaneuf because of it.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

On the other hand, it might be the best time to trade for him. His value is low, and it Toronto appears to be very motivated to make a deal. If he comes over, and plays close to his abilities, we could end up getting him for a steal and seriously upgrading our blueline. And when looking at the rumored asking prices for other D we've chased...well, rolling the die on a maybe like Phaneuf is a bit more appealing from that angle, too.

From my angle, I don't like our blueline, and the kids are still at least a year away from getting ice time and probably two years away (minimum) from being guys we are entirely comfortable leaning on for the playoffs. At that point, Datsyuk is on the edge of retirement, and Z and Kronwall are a couple of years closer to the twilight of their own careers. If we can grab Phaneuf for a reasonable price (or better yet a low one), I have to be for it.

It's also a bit of insurance in case we can't sign Green in free agency. And I don't think getting Phaneuf means Kenny will sit on his hands when/if Green hits the open market, either. As I said, though, I don't like our blueline, I probably dislike it more than most, so I might be more open to bringing in Phaneuf because of it.

You go for Green first, and other dmen.. Then try to trade for Phanuef

Like I said.. Cap is going up... So there is absolutely zero reason to deny players cause they want more then Kronner

 

[Claypool]

Phaneuf has a poor attitude, a poor work ethic, and comes from an organization that doesn't prioritize winning. He's be terrible in Detroit. No thanks.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

i think its funny all the comments about Phaneufs attitiude

the way he handles the toronto media and the scruitny with absolute professionalism and integrity, I think every single current red wing would have cracked long before had they been playing in toronto.

some of this criticism is really unjust

while he may be getting overpaid for a #2 dman, personality issues are really unfair to level against him given no red wing has ever, ever, had to deal with 1/10th the scrutiny Dion has and does have to deal with

 

[InjuredChoker]

i think its funny all the comments about Phaneufs attitude.

the way he handles the toronto media and the scruitny, I think every single current red wing would have cracked long before had they been playing in toronto.

some of this criticism is really unjust

i agree and i don't even want phaneuf.

 

[aFish]

Kronwalls hits when he knows his fowards are on the backcheck

This is exactly my point. Kronner knew he'd have support, so he wasn't afraid to hit people in the offensive zone. It would be much the same for Phaneuf.

In the Boston game, He just runs over the guy who has the puck with Kessel in the Ozone (just lost the puck) and his teamate screening the goalie (still thinking kessel has the puck) Phanuef doesnt know when to hit... Not to mention countless times he hits his own players and bumps into them (He runs into JVR)

One very specific incident doesn't make him a bad hitter.

Ok..He has shots.. Theyre obviouvsly shooting into the right in the middle of the goalies jersey.. he has 3 goals this season.... 2 goals are on the Powerplay.. .. That means he has 1 even strength goal in fifty six games... You can not honestly believe he has had bad puck luck for that long.

So which is it? He can't shoot? Or is he just a logo hunter? Make up your mind already. Next you'll be telling us all how he's got a weak slap shot?

They dont want him for his Offensive Production.... The thing with Toronto is that they score alot... And allow more... Toronto does not have a bad offense... they jsut have a garbage garbage garbage defense. which is why they suck... So his point total WILL NOT change much at all

If they don't want Dion for his offensive production, then why would his (poor) shot matter so much? Why should they care if his point totals not change? I disagree though, I think his point totals would certainly increase with better linemates and better structure.

Oh, and for the record, TO doesn't score a lot of goals. They're in the bottom third of the league in scoring. But i bet that's all Dion fault too, right?

Phanuef CAN be a top 4 dman.. The question is.. Does he want too? You should be playing amazing even if you are on a bad team. no matter what you are a professional
Though I still would go after someone else... That contract length is hideous for him

I can agree with you on this. I don't like seeing him seemingly "quit" on his team this year. Though a losing culture for so long can be a very frustrating thing to have to put up with.
The contract length is the only thing that scares me with Dion. I think he'd be a fine top 4 defenseman for us, but I wouldn't trade for him unless Weiss was part of the deal, and they retained salary (at the very least $1M).

Id rather go for a Free Agent dman.. Overpay if you have too... Only a little though.. Dont pay Boychuck like 8 mil.... Cap is Rising.. We shouldnt be paying people less then Kronner even if they arent as good (Kronners having an off year, and is pretty old) Kronner wont throw a hissy fit about it either... No reason to not overpay a little for something that you need when you have the cap space

I like Boychuck, and would be thrilled if we could land him in free agency. If this is something we could do instead of landing Dion, I'd be all for it. Though I have a hunch NYI will lock him up before he hits free agency.
The thought of landing Boychuck and trading for Dion kind of excites me though... imagine a top 4 of:

Kronwall - Boychuck
Phaneuf - DDK

...quite an upgrade over what we have now.

 

[KJoe88]

The hate for the guy is just absurd. He's a really good defenseman on a really ***** team.

I hope Kenny grabs the dude, because he's got game.

Although I've been an advocate of trading for him ever since rumours surfaced. I like the guy.