Rumor: Report: Red Wings, Maple Leafs expected to revisit Phaneuf trade during offseason

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
Good to see everyone wants to just treat Smith as a throw in to get DP...even though Smitty has easily been our most consistent defensemen the past couple months. Completely ignore Kronwall's inconsistencies, Dekeyser turning into a turnover machine, Ericsson just flat out terrible in every aspect. It's so true that once you have a reputation it's almost impossible to change it in peoples minds. Honestly feel like I'm not even watching the same team as most of y'all.

Depending what consistent means.

My stats show the most consistent " " for least amount of bad defensive plays is Quincey.

Most consistent for "good plays" is probably Kronwall.

Feel free to look at the SBDSS stats thread or feel free to help me collect this data. I do so to get a feel of how our D men are playing. There is always alot of talk around here rating our D men, and I feel most people have just picked the guy they dislike, and wait for his mistake. So completely agree with your assessment of people watching our D men with blinders on.
 

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
I'm down for it if they'll take on Weiss and retain 2 M of Dion's salary per year.

So if they pay 2M for 6 years and pay 5M for 3 years you are cool with it.

That means for 3 years they get no cap relief from Dion's contract.
Where is their incentive to give us Dion at all?

With that deal they will want some picks/prospects.
And they will need to be pretty good.
1st rounder for sure.
+Probably (a name we dont want).

I dont see how this works out if we want to keep Mantha/Larkin/1sts
 

Zetterberg4Captain

Registered User
Aug 11, 2009
13,727
2,135
Detroit
If we trade them weiss we have zero need for salary retention.

Weiss plus smith plus jurco plus 3rd rd pick whenever we next have one

for

phaneuf
 

BSHH

HSVer & Rotflügel
Apr 12, 2009
2,155
279
Hamburg
If Phaneuf played like a solid #3 defenseman in Detroit, his contract would be much more palpable than most here seem to think. Many UFA defensemen get salaries around 6m AAV without being clear-cut top pairing players (like Niskanen, Orpik or E. Staal). With that said, the Red Wings might be able to attract some good RHD UFAs by offering them similar salaries (perhaps Boychuk or Green, Petry and Franson should be much cheaper), who would complement the current defense corps much better than Phaneuf. Zidlicky might also be re-signed for one year with the Red Wings hoping that Sproul will make the last necessary steps.

Thus Phaneuf's value for Detroit simply is not that high. If the Red Wings could get him by merely giving away questionable contracts in Weiss and Kindl with seeing one expendable player like Smith leave, they should do it. But that would basically mean that Toronto wanted to dump Phanaeuf, which they certainly do not (albeit the contant turmoil surrounding Phaneuf does not help their case at all).

Gruß,
BSHH
 

detredWINgs

Registered User
Jan 1, 2004
17,966
0
Michigan
Visit site
Don't think it would happen at the draft?

That's exactly what I'm worried about. I don't like the idea of giving up assets to acquire Phaneuf and possibly putting ourselves out of the running for Green in the process.

In an ideal world, we trade for Green's rights a week or a few days before the draft and then make a run at Phaneuf. I wouldn't even mind losing a 4th round pick and having Green walk as long as we tried.

Por que no los dos?

When we were talking about adding Phaneuf at the deadline, I ran the numbers and suggested that, cap-wise, adding both would work, assuming we part with some/all of Smith, Quincey and Weiss (obviously not all in the same deal), Nyquist comes in at ~$4.5M and Green accepts ~$6.5M.

Personally, I would love both. I'd feel like we had a legitimate shot at the Cup in what might be Hank and Datsyuk's last good year if that were the case.
 

Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
6,135
1,563
If Phaneuf played like a solid #3 defenseman in Detroit, his contract would be much more palpable than most here seem to think. Many UFA defensemen get salaries around 6m AAV without being clear-cut top pairing players (like Niskanen, Orpik or E. Staal). With that said, the Red Wings might be able to attract some good RHD UFAs by offering them similar salaries (perhaps Boychuk or Green, Petry and Franson should be much cheaper), who would complement the current defense corps much better than Phaneuf. Zidlicky might also be re-signed for one year with the Red Wings hoping that Sproul will make the last necessary steps.

Thus Phaneuf's value for Detroit simply is not that high. If the Red Wings could get him by merely giving away questionable contracts in Weiss and Kindl with seeing one expendable player like Smith leave, they should do it. But that would basically mean that Toronto wanted to dump Phanaeuf, which they certainly do not (albeit the contant turmoil surrounding Phaneuf does not help their case at all).

Gruß,
BSHH


I am with you, if Toronto wants to dump Phenuf then its a decent move. Would not want to see top prospects and picks going the other way. If that is what it takes, then move on.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
Jul 27, 2010
36,201
14,683
If Toronto just wants to "dump" Phaneuf, I imagine they would have multiple takers, and would opt for the one not in their division/conference.

I imagine we would have to give up more than just scraps.
 

ArGarBarGar

What do we want!? Unfair!
Sep 8, 2008
44,017
11,677
When we were talking about adding Phaneuf at the deadline, I ran the numbers and suggested that, cap-wise, adding both would work, assuming we part with some/all of Smith, Quincey and Weiss (obviously not all in the same deal), Nyquist comes in at ~$4.5M and Green accepts ~$6.5M.

Personally, I would love both. I'd feel like we had a legitimate shot at the Cup in what might be Hank and Datsyuk's last good year if that were the case.

If that is how Holland plays it (though I don't really think he would), then I would be okay with losing some long-term assets (I.E. Mantha) for it to happen. Phaneuf and Green could be a huge addition to the defensive core.

Mantha may be a Carter type of player, but even if he reaches that level we need to have a center that is capable of doing at least a good portion of what Zetterberg and Datsyuk did in their primes. If we can't get a high-talent center through a trade or free agency, then we have to improve the defense short-term to make a run at it while Datsyuk and Zetterberg can still hack it.
 

Winger98

Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
22,756
4,569
Cleveland
If Toronto just wants to "dump" Phaneuf, I imagine they would have multiple takers, and would opt for the one not in their division/conference.

I imagine we would have to give up more than just scraps.

At the same time, they can't expect a huge haul - especially if the cap doesn't go up much (or at all). Like Z4C, I think it's entirely unnecessary to expect them to retain salary and take back a guy like Weiss. At the same time, it's unreasonable for them to expect to not retain salary and take back better assets. If/when a trade happens, I think there's going to be a number of people unhappy with whatever the components are.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,032
881
Canton Mi
If Toronto just wants to "dump" Phaneuf, I imagine they would have multiple takers, and would opt for the one not in their division/conference.

I imagine we would have to give up more than just scraps.

Why did the only other team interested in him enough to present an offer only present a cap dump then (LA)?

I'm not coming off on specifically you.

But if he is such a good defender why does he only seem palatable as a #3 now and he is 30 next year. For his style of play in 3 years he will be a atrocity especially at his current cap hit. Even at 2 million retained he will suck once he really starts to hit his regression age cycle (most physical defenders drop off a cliff at 32 and onwards). If Toronto is interested in moving him they will have to retain money period. If they don't he is sitting on there team for the remainder of his contract.

It makes no sense what so ever for the Wings to get in on him. If they need a top pairing d make a legitimate offer to Boychuk. He is RH and is a top pairing defender. He provides offense and is the best off all the options in his own end. Green isn't worth what he will command. Trotz doesn't put him above the 3rd pairing at ES. Yet people want to offer him 7+ for 7 to get him. Thank ****ing whatever higher power you believe in that most posters on here don't get a sniff at GM duties.

Or play the patient game resign Zids for 1 year and make a competitive offer to Seabrook next year when he hits UFA. But these conditional defenders that suck ass in at least one facet of there game if not more are not worth making offers too.
 

chances14

Registered User
Jan 7, 2010
10,396
499
Michigan
correct me if i'm wrong but i think phaneuf has a partial ntc so that would limit the number of teams that could get him
 

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
Why did the only other team interested in him enough to present an offer only present a cap dump then (LA)?

I'm not coming off on specifically you.

But if he is such a good defender why does he only seem palatable as a #3 now and he is 30 next year. For his style of play in 3 years he will be a atrocity especially at his current cap hit. Even at 2 million retained he will suck once he really starts to hit his regression age cycle (most physical defenders drop off a cliff at 32 and onwards). If Toronto is interested in moving him they will have to retain money period. If they don't he is sitting on there team for the remainder of his contract.

It makes no sense what so ever for the Wings to get in on him. If they need a top pairing d make a legitimate offer to Boychuk. He is RH and is a top pairing defender. He provides offense and is the best off all the options in his own end. Green isn't worth what he will command. Trotz doesn't put him above the 3rd pairing at ES. Yet people want to offer him 7+ for 7 to get him. Thank ****ing whatever higher power you believe in that most posters on here don't get a sniff at GM duties.

Or play the patient game resign Zids for 1 year and make a competitive offer to Seabrook next year when he hits UFA. But these conditional defenders that suck ass in at least one facet of there game if not more are not worth making offers too.

I wonder if Boychuk will make it to free agency. If he does are you ok with 7M per year x 7???? Cause that might be what it takes to get him as a UFA.

I agree he is the best option. Its only more apparent watching how poorly Boston is playing without him, and how well the NYI are doing.
 

odin1981

There can be only 1!
Mar 8, 2013
5,032
881
Canton Mi
I wonder if Boychuk will make it to free agency. If he does are you ok with 7M per year x 7???? Cause that might be what it takes to get him as a UFA.

I agree he is the best option. Its only more apparent watching how poorly Boston is playing without him, and how well the NYI are doing.

I'd be wary of term but I believe we would get 4-5 good years outta him (ie worth his cap hit) which is a hell of a lot longer than Phaneuf will (probably not 1 year at all). Then i could live with potentially 2-3 years of value under his pay grade. Though if any other team offers him north of 7 million we have to let him go though. If he gets a bad deal from another team then we play it safe for a year and go after Seabrook next UFA.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BinCookin

Registered User
Feb 15, 2012
6,160
1,377
London, ON
I'd be wary of term but I believe we would get 4-5 good years outta him (ie worth his cap hit) which is a hell of a lot longer than Phaneuf will (probably not 1 year at all). Then i could live with potentially 2-3 years of value under his pay grade. Though if any other team offers him north of 7 million we have to let him go though. If he gets a bad deal from another team then we play it safe for a year and go after Seabrook next UFA.

This could totally be Hollands plan. We will never know unless it happens.
 

14ari13

Registered User
Oct 19, 2006
14,033
1,166
Norway
I strongly believe Dion is a product of the system in Toronto. Look no further than Beauchemin as an example... the guy was a disaster in Toronto, goes back to ANA and turns into a very good defenseman again. Dion is easily 2x the player Beauchemin is.

How well does anyone think Kronner would fare were he in Dion's position right now? Given the pressure to Captain a team of one of the most critical markets in the world, told to play top minutes with (more often than not) a clueless defensive partner, against the opposition's top players, in a terribly coached defensive system. I love Kronner, but he'd be no better than Phaneuf if this were the case.

I think Dion would be great here under Bab's tutelage/system. I'm certainly not a fan of his contract, but if Toronto would be willing to eat even $1M of that, i'd be thrilled. Not to mention potentially riding ourselves of Weiss, who clearly has no future here as long as Babcock is coaching.
I think even Lidstrom would struggle there. You need 3-4 experienced players to turn that team around.
If we trade them weiss we have zero need for salary retention.

Weiss plus smith plus jurco plus 3rd rd pick whenever we next have one

for

phaneuf
+1
If we send Weiss and Kindl/Smith plus 2nd, they do not have to retain anything.
 

SpookyTsuki

Registered User
Dec 3, 2014
15,916
671
I dont think my post came up


Phanuef is a terrible dman heres why:

He doesnt know when to hit.. when he hits its always big yes... But after that its almost always an odd man rush. In the Boston series 2 years ago. He hit someone and that led to a GwG... for Boston


He has a booming slapshot.... that CANNOT hit the net... oh happy happy joy joy

He is a cancer in the locker room... Terrible Leader... Cant play in his own zone


Even though he cant play in his own zone that well.. Id rather keep Zidlicky


And id rather keep Ericsson. Even though hes pretty terrible too..
 

14ari13

Registered User
Oct 19, 2006
14,033
1,166
Norway
Why did the only other team interested in him enough to present an offer only present a cap dump then (LA)?

I'm not coming off on specifically you.

But if he is such a good defender why does he only seem palatable as a #3 now and he is 30 next year. For his style of play in 3 years he will be a atrocity especially at his current cap hit. Even at 2 million retained he will suck once he really starts to hit his regression age cycle (most physical defenders drop off a cliff at 32 and onwards). If Toronto is interested in moving him they will have to retain money period. If they don't he is sitting on there team for the remainder of his contract.

It makes no sense what so ever for the Wings to get in on him. If they need a top pairing d make a legitimate offer to Boychuk. He is RH and is a top pairing defender. He provides offense and is the best off all the options in his own end. Green isn't worth what he will command. Trotz doesn't put him above the 3rd pairing at ES. Yet people want to offer him 7+ for 7 to get him. Thank ****ing whatever higher power you believe in that most posters on here don't get a sniff at GM duties.

Or play the patient game resign Zids for 1 year and make a competitive offer to Seabrook next year when he hits UFA. But these conditional defenders that suck ass in at least one facet of there game if not more are not worth making offers too.

Basicly trading Weiss for Phaneuf is trading 5M for 7M.
Babcock does not use Weiss, so I see it as Phaneuf costs us only 2M, not 7.

So adding a 7M Dman is adding 7M to the payroll, while trading Weiss for Phaneuf is adding 2M and if we count Smith, then it is almost like not adding anything to the payroll.

But how much and for how long is he signed?
 

Claypool

Registered User
Jan 12, 2009
13,670
4,352
Basicly trading Weiss for Phaneuf is trading 5M for 7M.
Babcock does not use Weiss, so I see it as Phaneuf costs us only 2M, not 7.

So adding a 7M Dman is adding 7M to the payroll, while trading Weiss for Phaneuf is adding 2M and if we count Smith, then it is almost like not adding anything to the payroll.

But how much and for how long is he signed?

6 more years after this season. It's far too long for my liking. I'd rather just tough it out with Weiss for another year then but him out. His cap penalty will be less than $2 million for like three seasons.
 

aFish

blub blub blub
Jun 23, 2014
136
15
Ontario
Phanuef is a terrible dman heres why:

He doesnt know when to hit.. when he hits its always big yes... But after that its almost always an odd man rush. In the Boston series 2 years ago. He hit someone and that led to a GwG... for Boston

The odd man rushes were caused by poor defensive support more so than Dion not knowing when to hit. A big hit here in Detroit would likely be aided by a proper back-check. Think back to when Kronwall was a second pairing d-man here, and when he was still kronwalling people. Very rarely did they lead to odd man rushes because Detroit's forwards back check like crazy.

He has a booming slapshot.... that CANNOT hit the net... oh happy happy joy joy

This simply isn't true. Dion's put up many season's of over 200 shots per. The fact that most of his start times in TO are in the defensive zone has really hurt those particular stats recently, but in Detroit, as a second pairing d-man, he'd certainly have many more o-zone starts, theoretically leading to more shots.

He is a cancer in the locker room... Terrible Leader... Cant play in his own zone

All hearsay leading back to his Calgary days. There is nothing to suggest this to be true now that he's in TO. In fact, teammates have recently come to his defense with the media. Why would they do that if he was a locker room cancer?

As far as being a terrible leader, it would be moot here, as he would not be relied upon to play that role.
 

aFish

blub blub blub
Jun 23, 2014
136
15
Ontario
Phaneuf (50% retained)

for

1st
Jurco/Athanasiou
Sproul/Marchenko
Smith
Weiss

This is a ridiculous offer. The Leafs wouldn't retain 50% ($3.5M) for 6 more years even if we offered them both Mantha and Larkin.

I suspect that if we send them 2 cap dumps, they will not retain anything. If we send them 1 cap dump (Weiss), they will retain very little (think $1M-ish).
 

traffic cone

Registered User
May 12, 2011
1,839
1,478
This is a ridiculous offer. The Leafs wouldn't retain 50% ($3.5M) for 6 more years even if we offered them both Mantha and Larkin.

I suspect that if we send them 2 cap dumps, they will not retain anything. If we send them 1 cap dump (Weiss), they will retain very little (think $1M-ish).
You mean the same organization who are glad to pay Nathan Horton for being a scratch?
 

aFish

blub blub blub
Jun 23, 2014
136
15
Ontario
You mean the same organization who are glad to pay Nathan Horton for being a scratch?

HUUUUGE difference here.

Nathan Horton will be LTIR. His contract will NOT count against the cap. Yes they will have to pay him out, but for TO, that's better than keeping Clarkson's cap hit on the books.

if they retain $3.5M of Dion's contract, it WILL count against their cap for the reaminder of Phaneuf's contract. That's 6 years of $3.5M against your cap.
 

traffic cone

Registered User
May 12, 2011
1,839
1,478
HUUUUGE difference here.

Nathan Horton will be LTIR. His contract will NOT count against the cap. Yes they will have to pay him out, but for TO, that's better than keeping Clarkson's cap hit on the books.

if they retain $3.5M of Dion's contract, it WILL count against their cap for the reaminder of Phaneuf's contract. That's 6 years of $3.5M against your cap.
Which is likely the time they're rebuilding.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->