Replacement Players Question

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SPARTAKUS*

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I have a question that I hope someone can answer. If the NHL uses replacement players can an european player let's take for exemple Kovalchuk and he decides to cross and play for the Thrashers is he allowed to do that?
Thanks.
 

Balej20*

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OTTSENS said:
I have a question that I hope someone can answer. If the NHL uses replacement players can an european player let's take for exemple Kovalchuk and he decides to cross and play for the Thrashers is he allowed to do that?
Thanks.

anyone can cross if they want... and thats what will most likely happen. All the players will just eventualyl cross
 

Vagabond

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Judging by what happened through the NFL, my answer is yes. Otherwise, my answer has no merit at all. Take it for what it's worth. ..And if it's not, it's a major hypocrisy and will make the players look worse than they already do. The players scabbed in Europe, why is it any different for a player to cross a picket-line in the NHL?
 

SPARTAKUS*

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Balej20 said:
anyone can cross if they want... and thats what will most likely happen. All the players will just eventualyl cross
Yes I agree. So all the players who would still have a contract with its respective club would be allowed to come back. Or do they have to sign a new contract?
 

Balej20*

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OTTSENS said:
Yes I agree. So all the players who would still have a contract with its respective club would be allowed to come back. Or do they have to sign a new contract?

i believe they use their existing contract
 

SPARTAKUS*

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Which of the two is most likely to happend before next september. The NHL declaring impasse or a deal being struck?
 

Balej20*

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OTTSENS said:
Which of the two is most likely to happend before next september. The NHL declaring impasse or a deal being struck?

If a deal is not struck in the next few weeks...an Impasse is much more likely in my opinion. In which case, alllll the players will cross an dyou can kiss the power of the union good bye
 

SPARTAKUS*

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Balej20 said:
If a deal is not struck in the next few weeks...an Impasse is much more likely in my opinion. In which case, alllll the players will cross an dyou can kiss the power of the union good bye
I agree with you 100%
 

Jaded-Fan

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Balej20 said:
If a deal is not struck in the next few weeks...an Impasse is much more likely in my opinion. In which case, alllll the players will cross an dyou can kiss the power of the union good bye


I do wonder if the union is worried as hell about this scenerio possibility. In which case they make a deal just to keep this from potentially happening, not wanting to test the strength of the union members not to cross. Live to fight another day sort of thing. Because if it comes to the players being forced to choose whether to cross the picket line and play, and many cross, that union is toast for the next 20 years or more.
 

Balej20*

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Jaded-Fan said:
I do wonder if the union is worried as hell about this scenerio possibility. In which case they make a deal just to keep this from potentially happening, not wanting to test the strength of the union members not to cross. Live to fight another day sort of thing. Because if it comes to the players being forced to choose whether to cross the picket line and play, and many cross, that union is toast for the next 20 years or more.

exactly
 

Mess

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Jaded-Fan said:
I do wonder if the union is worried as hell about this scenerio possibility. In which case they make a deal just to keep this from potentially happening, not wanting to test the strength of the union members not to cross. Live to fight another day sort of thing. Because if it comes to the players being forced to choose whether to cross the picket line and play, and many cross, that union is toast for the next 20 years or more.
Using replacements a confusing option

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=115284&hubName=nhl
 

Wetcoaster

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OTTSENS said:
I have a question that I hope someone can answer. If the NHL uses replacement players can an european player let's take for exemple Kovalchuk and he decides to cross and play for the Thrashers is he allowed to do that?
Thanks.
No, US immigration law prohibits foreign nationals from being issued work visas during a labour dispute.
 

kdb209

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Wetcoaster said:
No, US immigration law prohibits foreign nationals from being issued work visas during a labour dispute.

I would assume current NHL players (like Kovalchuk) would already have work visas in place and could cross a picket line and return as replacement players for their current teams. Would it make a difference if they were already under contract, RFAs, or UFAs?
 

Mess

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kdb209 said:
I would assume current NHL players (like Kovalchuk) would already have work visas in place and could cross a picket line and return as replacement players for their current teams. Would it make a difference if they were already under contract, RFAs, or UFAs?
Kovalchuk is probably a bad example .. He is currently making 3 mil per year to play in Russia .. He just concluded his entry level contract at 3 years at 1.25 /season ..

He is currently unsigned and a RFA ..

Kovalchuk would never give up $ 3 mil to cross NHLPA Picket lines and play for scab wages as a replacement player which would be far far less then he even made earlier.

NO motivation what so ever to do anything but play in the RSL until a NEW CBA agreement is reached and then force Atlanta to nearly triple his previous Salary or he will continue to play for 3 Mil at home in Russia ..
 

kdb209

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The Messenger said:
Kovalchuk is probably a bad example .. He is currently making 3 mil per year to play in Russia .. He just concluded his entry level contract at 3 years at 1.25 /season ..

He is currently unsigned and a RFA ..

Kovalchuk would never give up $ 3 mil to cross NHLPA Picket lines and play for scab wages as a replacement player which would be far far less then he even made earlier.

NO motivation what so ever to do anything but play in the RSL until a NEW CBA agreement is reached and then force Atlanta to nearly triple his previous Salary or he will continue to play for 3 Mil at home in Russia ..

I just used Kovalchuk as an example because a previous poster used him, so lets change it from Kovalchuk to generic-european-player-making-a-fraction-of-his-NHL-salary. If an impasse is declared, the league drops the lockout and implements whatever CBA it does, the PA challenges it and strikes, can Mr generic cross the line and play as a replacement player. Does it make a difference if he is currently under contract, an RFA, or a UFA. Does anyone know? Wetcoaster?
 

Donnie D

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Wetcoaster said:
No, US immigration law prohibits foreign nationals from being issued work visas during a labour dispute.

No one can say with any certainty what the law is in this area becuase it hasn't been tested. They could rule that the "union" isn't a union in the truest sense. As pointed out in the TSN story, the union isn't recognized in the 2 provinces that you keep citing.

This is so gray that it would take years to litigate and by time it is resolved, Crosby will be retired. Ok, maybe not him, but about 1/3 of the current players.
 

SENSible1*

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Wetcoaster said:
No, US immigration law prohibits foreign nationals from being issued work visas during a labour dispute.

Let's see what ANOTHER labour lawyer has to say.



David Elenbaas, head of the employee and labour relations group at McMillan Binch LLP in Toronto, believes the league would consider replacements if they felt confident they'd win a long drawn-out legal battle on the issue -- and believed it could break the union.

"I think the league would do it if they thought a large percentage of (regular) players would decide to play rather than sit out," Elanbaas said.

But Elanbaas said labour laws are so grey when it comes to pro sports that it could take months -- and a great deal of wasted resources -- to determine whether the move would be legally allowed.

Seems things aren't quite as cut and dry, black and white as good old Wettie would lead everyone to believe.

From article

It should be noted that the article does point out that this option is very risky and generally takes a negative view.
 

GKJ

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OTTSENS said:
Which of the two is most likely to happend before next september. The NHL declaring impasse or a deal being struck?


I say a deal being struck
 

Fredrik

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Thunderstruck said:
Let's see what ANOTHER labour lawyer has to say.





Seems things aren't quite as cut and dry, black and white as good old Wettie would lead everyone to believe.

From article

It should be noted that the article does point out that this option is very risky and generally takes a negative view.

The article you are linking to talks about labour law but Wetcoaster are talking about immigration law. They aren't necessarily linked.
 

Bicycle Repairman

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Donnie D said:
No one can say with any certainty what the law is in this area becuase it hasn't been tested. They could rule that the "union" isn't a union in the truest sense. As pointed out in the TSN story, the union isn't recognized in the 2 provinces that you keep citing.
So then you're saying that the lockout is illegal in Quebec and British Columbia?

I'm sure the Canadiens and Canucks players will be delighted to recieve back pay.
 

Wetcoaster

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Donnie D said:
No one can say with any certainty what the law is in this area becuase it hasn't been tested. They could rule that the "union" isn't a union in the truest sense. As pointed out in the TSN story, the union isn't recognized in the 2 provinces that you keep citing.

This is so gray that it would take years to litigate and by time it is resolved, Crosby will be retired. Ok, maybe not him, but about 1/3 of the current players.
We are not talking about whether or not replacement players could be used in BC and Quebec but the issue of whether or not immigration law would prevent foreign nationals who require work permits from playing in the US and Canada during a labour dispute. It does.

No need for interpretation - the statutory bar is clear and it was applied during the ECHL strike several years back. No work visas in the US will be issued. No Canadians - no Europeans allowed.

The immigration law is the same in Canada and would bar non-Canadian citizens or anyone who was not a legal permanent resident. No Europeons - no US citizens allowed.

BTW replacement players are not that grey an area - people should actually take the time to read the law before commenting.

During 1994 the Expos could not play "scab ball" and the law has not changed. Why???? The reports overlook the exception to the general requirement that a union must be certified to gain protection of a provincial labour code. The exception is known as "voluntary recognition" and is part of the various provincial codes. It applies where a CBA has already been reached previously and the employer has recognized the bargaining agent as has occurred with the NHL.

That is the problem when you have reporters jumping to conclusions without knowing the law. Most sport reporters have trouble finding their way to the free eats table - legal analysis is beyond most of their capabilities with a few exceptions.

I have dealt with this situation on several occasions in the past during multi-employer bargaining involving national and international unions. Here is the how the BC Labour Relations Board defines "voluntary recognition" and its effect which is to grant prottections and rights as if the union was in fact certified. This comes from the BC LRB Guide to the Code used by union and management practitioners:

If a group of employees wants to be represented by a union, the Code provides the means for that union to be legally recognized as the exclusive bargaining agent for those employees. This recognition is called “certification†and carries with it certain rights and obligations. The union acquires the right to bargain with the employer on behalf of the employees it represents (the bargaining unit) and, on their behalf, to enter into a collective agreement setting out the terms and conditions of their employment. In return for that right, the union has the duty to represent all of the employees in the bargaining unit in a manner which is not arbitrary, discriminatory or in bad faith, whether or not those employees are members of the union.

Even where a union has not sought certification under the Code, an employer may agree to acknowledge the union as bargaining agent for the employees and to conclude a collective agreement with the union. This is called voluntary recognition. In such cases the union will normally have the same rights and be subject to the same obligations under the Code as a certified union. The Board, however, must be satisfied that the voluntary recognition has been approved by the employees affected.
http://www.lrb.bc.ca/codeguide/chapter1.htm

Since the players have signed contracts and operated under the 1994 CBA, it is pretty clear they have approved the CBA via voluntary recognition.

No grey area. Just lack of research and grey matter when analysing the situation.
 

Wetcoaster

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Thunderstruck said:
Let's see what ANOTHER labour lawyer has to say.

Seems things aren't quite as cut and dry, black and white as good old Wettie would lead everyone to believe.

From article

It should be noted that the article does point out that this option is very risky and generally takes a negative view.

First off that article does not deal with the issue I was discussing which was how immigration law would provide constraints on foreign nationals playing in the US and Canada under a replacement player regime. Try to stay with the issue.

Secondly in BC and Quebec IMHO the "voluntary recognition" exception to the general rule requiring union certification to obtain labour code protection would be applicable as I have set out in the post above.

An Ontario labour lawyer posting here in another thread indicated that Ontario accepts certification via voluntary recognition. Not surprising since it makes sense that if the employer and union bargaining agent have already negotiated an agreement, a formal certification as a bargaining agent appears redundant since the function of the certification vote is to determine if the agent has sufficient support from the union members to represent them and negotiate a CBA.
 

Donnie D

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Wetcoaster said:
We are not talking about whether or not replacement players could be used in BC and Quebec but the issue of whether or not immigration law would prevent foreign nationals who require work permits from playing in the US and Canada during a labour dispute. It does.

No need for interpretation - the statutory bar is clear and it was applied during the ECHL strike several years back. No work visas in the US will be issued. No Canadians - no Europeans allowed.

If it is so cut and dry, what were all those latin american players doing out there on the field playing baseball when the MLB was using replacement players? This is way beyond reading a few articles and becoming an expert. This is legal research for with a staff of experienced lawyers for months.
 
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