GDT: Red Wings @ Penguins

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Blashill has complete authority to decide who's in the lineup every night. Blashill isn't tanking. He secured his dream job that pays him millions. He's not flushing it down the toilet and risk being out of the league. He's coaching for his NHL career. If Holland wants to tank he can fire Blashill and coach the team the rest of the season and play whomever he wants.

There's no point in trying to argue with someone who wants to see Mrazek play more when he clearly hasn't earned the opportunity. He's an awful, awful goalie right now. He's been available since the summer. NOBODY WANTS HIM. The best thing the Red Wings can do is just ride the season out and let him walk in free agency. It sucks it ended this way but that's what happens when you sign a big contract and expect to carry the load then fall flat on your face.

Stating things as facts doesn't make them true.

You seriously don't think the GM influences the lineup? Of course Blashill wants to win. But Holland is trying to win and also looking out for the future interests of the team. That's the tension between all GM's and coaches. And you have no idea what teams would want him if he managed to string some decent games together.

For the last time, I'm not arguing he's earned the opportunity. Or that he should play the next 40 games. He's definitely been bad. I'm arguing they give him the opportunity to turn things around because there's literally nothing to lose. The Wings are in the back half of the season. They're not making the playoffs. And only one time has Mrazek gotten two games in a row to turn things around. Why not start him 8 games in a relatively soft part of the schedule?

 

[Claypool]

You seriously don't think the GM influences the lineup?

Name me a single instance this season where you think Holland has influenced who played in a game.

 

[jkutswings]

Name me a single instance this season where you think Holland has influenced who played in a game.

So it has to be obvious, to the extent that a random fan could point it out, to even acknowledge that it's a possibility?

Every team is different. So I'd imagine that, across the league, there's a wide variety of degrees that a general manager has influence or feedback over the sphere of control traditionally given to a head coach. But do you honestly believe that Ken Holland NEVER has anything to say about the lineup? Or other day-to-day aspects?

I'd guess that there are probably several teams out there, with a healthy relationship between coach and GM, that include bouncing ideas off each other, even for things that normally sit on one side of the line (or the other). And there are probably teams (whether that includes Detroit or not), where the GM is breathing down the coach's neck pretty often.

But to act as if, 'Oh, that could NEVER happen here'? C'mon. Even on championship teams, I'm sure all sorts of stuff goes on behind the scenes, at least occasionally.

 

[Claypool]

So it has to be obvious, to the extent that a random fan could point it out, to even acknowledge that it's a possibility?

I'm just asking for someone to name ONE instance where Holland has had clear influence with the line up this season. Just one.

I'm sure Blashill talks to management to get their opinions on players or other ideas. But no, I don't believe Holland has ever told Blashill, specifically, you need to play certain players or give a certain amount of ice time before a game. Which is what I'm arguing against.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Name me a single instance this season where you think Holland has influenced who played in a game.

Considering he has control over the roster, there've been countless times he's had influence over who played in the game. His job title is literally to oversee "all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations, including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movement." You really don't think he's involved in player usage?

I'm not claiming he's saying "play AA 19 minutes and 23 seconds" but it's crazy to think the GM isn't involved in the conversation of how players get utilized.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'm just asking for someone to name ONE instance where Holland has had clear influence with the line up this season. Just one.

I'm sure Blashill talks to management to get their opinions on players or other ideas. But no, I don't believe Holland has ever told Blashill, specifically, you need to play certain players or give a certain amount of ice time before a game. Which is what I'm arguing against.

Name me ONE instance where Holland hasn't had a clear influence on the lineup this season. Just one.

For all we know he's the one telling Blashill to ride Jimmy like a rented mule.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So it has to be obvious, to the extent that a random fan could point it out, to even acknowledge that it's a possibility?

Every team is different. So I'd imagine that, across the league, there's a wide variety of degrees that a general manager has influence or feedback over the sphere of control traditionally given to a head coach. But do you honestly believe that Ken Holland NEVER has anything to say about the lineup? Or other day-to-day aspects?

I'd guess that there are probably several teams out there, with a healthy relationship between coach and GM, that include bouncing ideas off each other, even for things that normally sit on one side of the line (or the other). And there are probably teams (whether that includes Detroit or not), where the GM is breathing down the coach's neck pretty often.

But to act as if, 'Oh, that could NEVER happen here'? C'mon. Even on championship teams, I'm sure all sorts of stuff goes on behind the scenes, at least occasionally.

So now Ken Holland is partially responsible for the day to day coaching decisions. Not responsible in a “he hired Blashill way” but directly responsible. Gotcha.

Or he’s not and the complaints are about that.

Sports teams do not think in “there is no downside way”. And here’s a possible downside for you. You always complain about how there are no repercussions for veterans and that rookies get so much latitude... what the hell do you think AA and Mantha will respond with when they see an obviously worse player get the nod just because? You’re trying to tell them, “It’s a meritocracy. Play well and you’ll be drowning in minutes. Be engaged and we will engage in you” and then following it up with “Let’s toss Pete in because this season doesn’t matter and let’s keep him in for a string of games because it’s not like we will be any worse”.

Logically, there may not be a difference between Jimmy being in net or Petr being in net but tossing in Petr just because runs counter to everything that the Wings have ever done and would serve as clear evidence internally and externally that the Wings don’t know what the hell theyre doing anymore.

 

[Claypool]

Name me ONE instance where Holland hasn't had a clear influence on the lineup this season. Just one.

Eh, you made the claim is has influence. You're the one that needs to back up the claims now.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

So now Ken Holland is partially responsible for the day to day coaching decisions. Not responsible in a “he hired Blashill way” but directly responsible. Gotcha.

Or he’s not and the complaints are about that.

Sports teams do not think in “there is no downside way”. And here’s a possible downside for you. You always complain about how there are no repercussions for veterans and that rookies get so much latitude... what the hell do you think AA and Mantha will respond with when they see an obviously worse player get the nod just because? You’re trying to tell them, “It’s a meritocracy. Play well and you’ll be drowning in minutes. Be engaged and we will engage in you” and then following it up with “Let’s toss Pete in because this season doesn’t matter and let’s keep him in for a string of games because it’s not like we will be any worse”.

Logically, there may not be a difference between Jimmy being in net or Petr being in net but tossing in Petr just because runs counter to everything that the Wings have ever done and would serve as clear evidence internally and externally that the Wings don’t know what the hell theyre doing anymore.

It's rare in any job where the boss isn't going to have a fair amount of say in how someone does their job. Professional coaching is no exception.

It's one thing if you're Scotty Bowman behind the bench. But if you're a third year coach who's managed one winning season, you bet the boss is involved.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Eh, you made the claim is has influence. You're the one that needs to back up the claims now.

And you made the claim he doesn't. You need to back up that claim.

The reality is neither one of us know, but you seem to think your opinion is fact. My opinion at least has basis in Holland's role within the organization.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It's rare in any job where the boss isn't going to have a fair amount of say in how someone does their job. Professional coaching is no exception.

It's one thing if you're Scotty Bowman behind the bench. But if you're a third year coach who's managed one winning season, you bet the boss is involved.

That’s a reasonable point... but Holland was also the guy who neglected to put Mrazek on the protected list. He’s also the guy who was a failed goaltending prospect himself and if there was any position where you would figure he might give some leeway, it is in net... yet, he’s shown no interest in extending a branch to Petr.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That’s a reasonable point... but Holland was also the guy who neglected to put Mrazek on the protected list. He’s also the guy who was a failed goaltending prospect himself and if there was any position where you would figure he might give some leeway, it is in net... yet, he’s shown no interest in extending a branch to Petr.

It does make me wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes and it's not just about Mrazek's play on the ice. If attitude is part of it or something. It just seems so strange to give up on a 25 year old goalie who's shown flashes of greatness.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Name me ONE instance where Holland hasn't had a clear influence on the lineup this season. Just one.

For all we know he's the one telling Blashill to ride Jimmy like a rented mule.

Andreas Athanasiou. Anthony Mantha. Unless you’re telling me that Blashill keeps flip-flopping their minutes as some kind of preemptive cap management strategy (which would be ridiculous and stupid).

Deploying the 13M third line. Think Holland wants his big free agent acquisition Nielsen playing a checking line role?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

It does make me wonder if there's something going on behind the scenes and it's not just about Mrazek's play on the ice. If attitude is part of it or something. It just seems so strange to give up on a 25 year old goalie who's shown flashes of greatness.

I think there is more truth to the HSJ stories about Mrazek’s attitude than the “mouthpiece of the franchise” derision it received. Not that Pete was a whiny man child who should be cut, but that when he was struggling, he didn’t try everything possible to get better voluntarily (staying late, working extra hours with the coaching staff, poring over game film, etc) and instead started pointing fingers and belatedly working after being prodded.

HSJ is still a hack without a whole lot of credibility but I agree it seems odd that they would completely decide to move on from a guy if he just had a confidence setback. However, at this point, it is clear as day that the Wings have moved on, whatever the reason

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Andreas Athanasiou. Anthony Mantha. Unless you’re telling me that Blashill keeps flip-flopping their minutes as some kind of preemptive cap management strategy (which would be ridiculous and stupid).

Deploying the 13M third line. Think Holland wants his big free agent acquisition Nielsen playing a checking line role?

My point was really that we don't know for sure.

To me it seems unlikely that a GM with 20 years experience and 3 stanley cups to his name couldn't have a significant influence on the roster decisions of his third year coach.