Red Fisher Conference Semi Finals (2) Guards Athletic Association vs (2) New York Americans

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@Johnny Engine @rmartin65

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[Johnny Engine]

I'll fix the links this evening

GUARDS ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION

Assistant GM: Tater the Pug
Head Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain: Sidney Crosby
Alternate: Valeri Vasiliev
Alternate: George Armstrong

Daniel Sedin - Sidney Crosby - Bill Cook
Tommy Phillips - Ron Francis - Didier Pitre
Jiri Holik - Vladimir Shadrin - George Armstrong
Ray Getliffe - Fleming MacKell - Phil Watson

Bill Gadsby - Valeri Vasiliev
Ken Reardon - Eric Desjardins
Flash Hollett - Terry Harper

Ed Belfour
Chuck Rayner

Todd Bertuzzi, Ken Randall, Vasili Pervukhin, Jack Marshall

PP1:
Cook
Francis - Crosby - Hollett
Gadsby

PP2:
Phillips
Pitre - Sedin - Watson
Reardon

PK1:
Holik - MacKell
Vasiliev - Desjardins

PK2:
Shadrin - Armstrong
Gadsby - Harper​

 

[rmartin65]

New York Americans

Coaches: Anatoli Tarasov, Billy Reay
Captain: Boris Mikhailov
Alternate Captains: Sid Abel, Anze Kopitar, Brad Park

Paul Kariya-Stan Mikita-Boris Mikhailov
Sid Abel-Steven Stamkos-Rod Gilbert
Gordon Roberts-Anze Kopitar-Ace Bailey
Dave Balon-Don Luce-Blair Russel

Spare Forwards: Lynn Patrick, LW, Terry O'Reilly, RW

Borje Salming-Brad Park
Babe Siebert-Bob Goldham
Vasili Davydov-Joe Hall

Spare Defense: Lars-Erik Sjoberg

Bernie Parent
Sergei Bobrovsky

PP1
Stamkos-Mikita-Mikhailov
Kariya-Park

PP2
Roberts-Abel-Gilbert
Salming-Hall

PK1
Luce-Bailey
Salming-Goldham

PK2
Kopitar-Dave Balon
Siebert-Park

​

Well, I am sure every GM says it this time of year, but I have to say it- I am really excited about this team.

Coaching and Leadership
This has historically been a weaker part of my teams, but not this year; Tarasov and Reay fit well with my team- an attacking team with a strong defense- with Mikhailov and Abel leading on the ice and in the locker room, I don’t think we have any concerns on that front.

1st Line
This is one of the strongest lines in the draft, in my opinion. Offensively, it has it all- 2 very capable puck carriers that can beat you with a pass or a shot in Kariya and Mikita to go with puck-winning and defensive ability in Mikita and Mikhailov. VsX isn’t the end-all-be-all, but this unit has a 7 year score of 278.7 (if you give Mikhailov an 86, which is roughly the same score as Iginla. I think he should be higher, but I will make that case at another time). As far as negatives- it is not a very physical line. Mikita and Mikhailov are pretty ornery and won’t back down from anyone, but this line wont be a physically punishing unit.

2nd Line
I haven’t run the numbers for all of the teams, but again, this unit has to be one of the more offensively potent 2nd lines out there, with a 7-year VsX of 253.4, with the potential to increase with Stamkos’ current season- it is basically a suped-up GAG line, with Abel playing the ‘driver’/’digger’ role (as he did in real-life) and defensive safety-valve. Stamkos brings top-notch sniping and underrated playmaking, while Gilbert does the same thing he did alongside Ratelle and Hadfield. Everyone can pass (to varying degrees), and everyone can score. I should add that Abel will take the lion’s share of faceoffs. The downside to this line is that I don’t think it is very strong defensively, nor, like the top line, will it be a physically punishing squad. While I don’t think Stamkos and Gilbert are bad defensive players, they don’t seem to be much more than average in that respect. Abel is above average, but still, the unit as a whole is below average in that regard.

3rd Line
Building around Kopitar, my 3rd line is predicated on strong 2-way play. Kopitar has to be one of the upper-tier 2 way 3rd line centers at this point (in terms of total offensive and defensive package), and Roberts and Bailey add additional size and ability to the unit. Getting VsX out of the way (and giving Roberts a 74, as per a number I saw thrown about last year)- 217.7, not including the bump that Kopitar is going to get this year. Each player is well-above average in size, and while maybe not a punishing line, they can each play the body well and effectively.

4th Line
This line is mainly for defensive situations. It could use more physicality, but I think in terms of skill and ability, this line is above average among the other 4th lines in the league.

Spares
It is unfortunate that most people (I assume) pay little attention to spares, because I think I landed 2 players here that could very easily be regulars; Patrick in particular should be a very solid second-liner, but his extreme dislike of the physical game relegates him to spare-status in a draft this size. However, because he is so talented, I have no problems with him taking over for Kariya when Kariya is injured. O’Reilly adds some muscle without being useless offensively. I didn’t draft a center because I have a couple wingers who played center- Abel and Russel can both shift to center.

1st Pairing
While I missed out on one of the elite number 1 defensemen, in a draft this size Park is still an average to above-average one who is very well-rounded. Salming is a low-end number 1/elite number 2 who is also pretty well rounded, so this should be one of the better 1st pairings in the league. Simply put, it is a plus pairing across the board- defensive ability, physicality, skating, passing, and shooting.

2nd Pairing
I follow up my 1st pairing with another strong unit, with Siebert being a high-end number 3/low-end number 2, and Goldham being a solid number 4. Siebert brings the physicality and offensive skills, while Goldham is the stay-at-home shot blocker with a good outlet pass. Stylistically, I really like this pairing.

3rd Pairing
Again, I think I hit on meshing styles, in much the same way as I did on my second pairing- Davydov plays the role of defensive safety-valve (though many people have written about his passing and skating abilities), while Hall plays the role of offensive driver with a (wicked) mean-streak.

Spare
Sjoberg is an undersized defender but brings a physical presence and strong offensive game. He is a spare, but I don’t have a problem with him on my bottom pairing in the event of injury.

Goaltenders
I am below average here, I wont try to argue the point. However, Parent is not weak to the point that I think he puts my team at a significant disadvantage, especially in the playoffs (where Parent shined). Bobrovsky is a bit of a mercurial case, with very high highs and pretty low lows. However, few backups can boast of 2 Vezina’s/1st Team All-Star nods and 2 Top-5 Hart voting finishes in a 30 team league. His playoff record is quite poor… but I (or rather, Tarasov and Reay) wont be starting our backup in the playoffs. Bobrovsky is there to spell Parent in the regular season, and to keep Parent fresh for the playoffs. Bobrovksy certainly has the record for that.

PP
I think my PP units are above average, but not elite. On my top unit, Mikita, Park and Kariya should be able to drive defenses crazy finding the open shooter (ideally Stamkos or Park), with Mikhailov provind screens and getting greasy garbage goals. The second unit is set up in much the same way, with Gilbert, Salming and Siebert (or Hall, I haven’t really decided) distributing the puck to each other or Roberts, and Abel being the net-front presence.

PK
Like my PP units, I think my PK is pretty strong all the way around. Luce is one of the best, and Kopitar is easily a top PK player who I have slumming it on the second unit. The defensemen are all above-average as PKers as well, with Salming, Goldham and Davydov being well-noted shot blockers.

 

[rmartin65]

I always respect the teams you put together, @Johnny Engine, here's to a good series.

Coaching/Leadership
I think I have a decent advantage in terms of coaching, but leadership is probably a wash. Can't go wrong with Crosby/Vasiliev/Armstrong or Mikhailov/Abel/Park/Kopitar.

1st Line
What a close matchup. Mikita v Crosby headlines the show, and I hope we can get some good discussion surrounding the two. Two centers with excellent offensive and defensive abilities, but Crosby gets the edge in terms of play-off play. Cook v Mikhailov is a win for your team, not huge, but a bigger gap than between our two centers (whichever you prefer, it is rather slight). Kariya v Sedin, however, goes to my team. In terms of fit, I think both lines work well, and there shouldn't be any chemistry issues. The Vs.X comes out incredibly close: 278.7 for the Americans (using 86 for Mikhailov), 278.3 for the GAA. In terms of awards, the GAA has 2 Harts, 4 Art Ross, 2 Richards, 8 1st-team All-Stars, and 5 2nd-team All-Stars. The Americans have 2 Harts, 4 Art Ross, 9 1st-team All-Star, 4 2nd-team All-Stars, and whatever you want to "award" Mikhailov for his play in the Soviet League, where he racked up 2 MVPs, 3 goal titles, and 7 All-Star nods. Oh, and the GAA has the 2 Conn Smythe Trophies as well. So, again, it is pretty close between the two teams.

2nd Line
I'm going to need some outside help on this one, because I readily admit I dont have a great grasp of Phillips and Pitre outside of what is here on this site. So... I'll hold off on my comparison until I get more info/you weigh in/outsiders weigh in (please do!). In any case, my gut tells me that this is not a huge win for either team.

3rd Line
I think my line takes this one. I think Roberts and Holik are pretty even, you have the advantage at RW, while i have a bigger advantage at C. Both lines are built as solid 2-way lines, but I think I'll get more offense and physicality out of mine than you will out of yours, without sacrificing defensive ability.

4th line
I reckon your team has a slight advantage for the handful of minutes these lines play at ES.

1st Pairing
We have our first substantial victory for either team- I think my pairing is clearly on another level than yours. Park is a couple tiers superior to Gadsby, and Salming is at least a notch above Vasiliev. Interestingly, it appears Mikita was not fond of going up against Gadsby!

2nd Pairing
Pretty close.

3rd Pairing
Advantage my team. Hall is, in my opinion, a solid number 4, and I have him slumming it here as a 5. I am also pretty high on Davydov.

Goalies
While I think the two are pretty even, Parent's play in the playoffs give him the edge.

Special Teams
They look pretty even to me.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I always respect the teams you put together, @Johnny Engine, here's to a good series.

Cheers!

Coaching/Leadership
I think I have a decent advantage in terms of coaching, but leadership is probably a wash. Can't go wrong with Crosby/Vasiliev/Armstrong or Mikhailov/Abel/Park/Kopitar.

Perhaps Tarasov belongs above Imlach on a list of best all time coaches, but what specifically makes him the man to lead your particular team? Your description of "an attacking team with a strong defense" is a bit vague, can you expand on that?
For my part, I'll submit that my team is built to be grinding, systematic and even boring in all three zones, and will rely on a forward group that will push and push for garbage goals, while the defense, all the way down to Belfour, will be mean and merciless. My team is the kind of group who Imlach will not only put in order defensively, but also will get their goals with methods that fit their coach's - it's not a group that will be neutralized by a conservative game plan.
Agreed that both leadership groups are formidable. Since you pointed out 4 guys on your team, I should note that Cook, Francis, Gadsby and Desjardins also have a solid captaincy record. A hat tip is also in order to Paul Kariya, and Borje Salming (who should have captained his horribly dysfunctional team instead of Vaive).

1st Line
What a close matchup. Mikita v Crosby headlines the show, and I hope we can get some good discussion surrounding the two. Two centers with excellent offensive and defensive abilities, but Crosby gets the edge in terms of play-off play. Cook v Mikhailov is a win for your team, not huge, but a bigger gap than between our two centers (whichever you prefer, it is rather slight). Kariya v Sedin, however, goes to my team. In terms of fit, I think both lines work well, and there shouldn't be any chemistry issues. The Vs.X comes out incredibly close: 278.7 for the Americans (using 86 for Mikhailov), 278.3 for the GAA. In terms of awards, the GAA has 2 Harts, 4 Art Ross, 2 Richards, 8 1st-team All-Stars, and 5 2nd-team All-Stars. The Americans have 2 Harts, 4 Art Ross, 9 1st-team All-Star, 4 2nd-team All-Stars, and whatever you want to "award" Mikhailov for his play in the Soviet League, where he racked up 2 MVPs, 3 goal titles, and 7 All-Star nods. Oh, and the GAA has the 2 Conn Smythe Trophies as well. So, again, it is pretty close between the two teams.

I like to think that the gap between Mikita and Crosby as playoff performers makes a small but very importance difference here, given that they'll be facing off directly with each other (yeah, let's go power on power this series, why not). As far as playoff performances go, Sedin and Kariya have a lot in common. One big run to the finals, but the overall career production is a little underwhelming. To me this is a little more alarming for a guy who might be expected to carry the puck and make a lot of plays on his line - Sedin is clearly the third wheel on a line with two grittier players.

2nd Line
I'm going to need some outside help on this one, because I readily admit I dont have a great grasp of Phillips and Pitre outside of what is here on this site. So... I'll hold off on my comparison until I get more info/you weigh in/outsiders weigh in (please do!). In any case, my gut tells me that this is not a huge win for either team.

I personally think I have the advantage here, chiefly because Stamkos has to go up against a bigger, smarter and more responsible centre in Francis. You've also got a fantastic battler in Abel, playing left wing, but in my mind, you're facing a line that's just tougher on balance, without giving up too much offense. I see Phillips as being a notch behind Abel as a two way force, and Pitre as a similar (but more shoot-first) threat to Gilbert, with the centers making all the difference.
(I'm not really sure how to back any of this up right now... hopefully we get some time this weekend to dive into the specifics of my older players).

3rd Line
I think my line takes this one. I think Roberts and Holik are pretty even, you have the advantage at RW, while i have a bigger advantage at C. Both lines are built as solid 2-way lines, but I think I'll get more offense and physicality out of mine than you will out of yours, without sacrificing defensive ability.

I'll conceed the offense. Bailey had that brief peak, Roberts has a cannon, and Kopitar is that all-around horse that every team wants. But why physicality? I think Bailey and Shadrin have pretty similar styles, and the other four guys are all gronks.
But defensively, I think I have the best player here in Armstrong. Kopitar is the best of the rest with, Holik, Shadrin and Bailey all being solid, but Roberts really only has a record of positionally versatility to go on - I can't really remember anything written about his defensive play as a forward (I had him a couple of years ago).

4th line
I reckon your team has a slight advantage for the handful of minutes these lines play at ES.

I'm banking on Phil Watson's playmaking to be a big spark here - and for all my guys to be really annoying. Yours looks like a bit more of a repository for penalty killers, which is also a good way to go about building a 4th line.

1st Pairing
We have our first substantial victory for either team- I think my pairing is clearly on another level than yours. Park is a couple tiers superior to Gadsby, and Salming is at least a notch above Vasiliev. Interestingly, it appears Mikita was not fond of going up against Gadsby!

Well, as I said above I think I've got the matchup of second lines clearly, but no argument on this matchup. Incidentally, are Park and Salming the right group to go toe to toe with a Crosby-Cook-Sedin cycle? Or is the task more suited to a pairing with at least one exceptionally physical guy? I don't doubt they could hold their own, but I'm interested in how you visualize them playing each other.

2nd Pairing
Pretty close.

Fair enough. I personally value Desjardins over Goldham to a higher degree than Siebert over Reardon, but I suppose the #3s are a little more important than the #4s.

3rd Pairing
Advantage my team. Hall is, in my opinion, a solid number 4, and I have him slumming it here as a 5. I am also pretty high on Davydov.

When you say you're high on Davydov, how high are we talking? Similarly, I think Terry Harper's an underrated quiet stay at home guy, but I'd like to be able to debate a direct comparison. I don't know that I have anyone playing too low on this pairing, but I do see these guys as a pair of potential #5s.

Goalies
While I think the two are pretty even, Parent's play in the playoffs give him the edge.

Special Teams
They look pretty even to me.

No debate here...or at least not at quarter after one on a Friday night. Maybe more tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

 

[BenchBrawl]

Great series guys.

Surprised Johnny let rmartin65 get away so easily with his Parent > Belfour statement.

 

[rmartin65]

Perhaps Tarasov belongs above Imlach on a list of best all time coaches, but what specifically makes him the man to lead your particular team? Your description of "an attacking team with a strong defense" is a bit vague, can you expand on that?

I think Tarasov would treat this team in much the same way that he did his Soviet teams- it will win through a puck-possession offense, and everyone pitching in on D. My top 3 lines are where most of my offense will come from, and each have the talent to execute this scheme.

Most importantly, the Americans will seize the initiative, as Tarasov himself believed a good team should; to use a quote from his bio:

I don’t think it’s possible to play a defensive game against a strong team and win, except perhaps once, by sheer luck. Because, when you play a defensive game, you forfeit the main thing – initiative. And it is initiative that most often decides who will win.

I think that is the kind of mindset that gives the Americans the edge.

Agreed that both leadership groups are formidable. Since you pointed out 4 guys on your team, I should note that Cook, Francis, Gadsby and Desjardins also have a solid captaincy record. A hat tip is also in order to Paul Kariya, and Borje Salming (who should have captained his horribly dysfunctional team instead of Vaive).

Adding a 4th player from my team wasn't an intentional dig at your team, I was just listing the players wearing letters.

I like to think that the gap between Mikita and Crosby as playoff performers makes a small but very importance difference here, given that they'll be facing off directly with each other (yeah, let's go power on power this series, why not). As far as playoff performances go, Sedin and Kariya have a lot in common. One big run to the finals, but the overall career production is a little underwhelming. To me this is a little more alarming for a guy who might be expected to carry the puck and make a lot of plays on his line - Sedin is clearly the third wheel on a line with two grittier players.

I don't have a problem giving Crosby a slight edge due to playoff play. Mikita has the better body of work in the regular season, but Crosby's playoffs are definitely superior. Taking both into account, it is close, but the edge goes to the Kid. As for Kariya... he isn't the primary puck carrier on that line, Mikita is. Kariya is the secondary puck carrier, which I think is something that your line may be lacking. Sedin never struck me as much of a puck carrier through the neutral zone, and while I never watched Cook play, he reads as someone who mainly attempted to bully his way to the net. Your line needs Crosby to be that guy to get into the zone (but then once there, your cycle should be incredible!), while my line has 2 players that can do the job.

I personally think I have the advantage here, chiefly because Stamkos has to go up against a bigger, smarter and more responsible centre in Francis. You've also got a fantastic battler in Abel, playing left wing, but in my mind, you're facing a line that's just tougher on balance, without giving up too much offense. I see Phillips as being a notch behind Abel as a two way force, and Pitre as a similar (but more shoot-first) threat to Gilbert, with the centers making all the difference.
(I'm not really sure how to back any of this up right now... hopefully we get some time this weekend to dive into the specifics of my older players).

I think the Stamkos/Francis matchup would be fascinating to watch. Stamkos is darn good at slipping away and getting open, while Francis is a darn good defensive center. That said, I don't buy the size thing; 2" and 6 pounds hardly gives Francis a substantial edge, especially considering Francis wasn't known for being physically dominating, nor is Stamkos known for wilting under physicality. I can buy your team having a slight advantage at C (though the 2 centers are being asked to do 2 very different things), but I am feeling more and more comfortable with placing both my wingers above your wingers. So, while it is close, I think I come out ahead here.

If I was going to rank the six players, I would probably have them
Abel
Francis
Stamkos
Gilbert
Pitre/Phillips

I
But defensively, I think I have the best player here in Armstrong. Kopitar is the best of the rest with, Holik, Shadrin and Bailey all being solid, but Roberts really only has a record of positionally versatility to go on - I can't really remember anything written about his defensive play as a forward (I had him a couple of years ago).

I'm going to challenge your assertion that Armstrong was a better defensive player than Kopitar. Kopitar consistently goes against opponents' top units, and usually comes out ahead. His Selke record is strong (4 top 3 finishes, at least 1 win). Armstrong seems like a great corner man, but I don't see anything in his bio that makes me think that he is better than Kopitar. Additionally, Kopitar is a center, which boosts his defensive value (as opposed to the winger Armstrong).

As for Roberts- are you thinking of the right Roberts? I don't think this one was ever a defender. This one's only real defensive history is a couple quotes from a Stanley Cup series. He's hardly a defensive stalwart, but I'm not trying to pass him off as one. Kopitar and Bailey are doing most of the work there, Roberts is there for some offense while not being useless defensively.

Well, as I said above I think I've got the matchup of second lines clearly, but no argument on this matchup. Incidentally, are Park and Salming the right group to go toe to toe with a Crosby-Cook-Sedin cycle? Or is the task more suited to a pairing with at least one exceptionally physical guy? I don't doubt they could hold their own, but I'm interested in how you visualize them playing each other.

I think watching your Sedin/Crosby/Cook line try to cycle against my Salming-Park duo (or, if you want to look at it another way, watch my pairing try to stop the cycle) would be awesome. I am surprised you are implying that the pairing isn't ideal for the matchup; sure there isnt a thumper like Stevens, but I dont think that's what is required to beat the cycle. Both Salming and Park are strong skaters who are more than willing to lay the body and play nasty, and that is what is required to beat the cycle. Additionally, Mikita, while ceding some size, certainly has the right temperament and ability to assist Salming and Park.

When you say you're high on Davydov, how high are we talking? Similarly, I think Terry Harper's an underrated quiet stay at home guy, but I'd like to be able to debate a direct comparison. I don't know that I have anyone playing too low on this pairing, but I do see these guys as a pair of potential #5s.

I think Davydov is a borderline 4/5. His only downside is his size- he skates well, has a strong pass, is solid defensively, and willing to sacrifice his body for the team. One of these years I'm going to have the time to do an extensive Russian language search on him, and see what pops up.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Adding a 4th player from my team wasn't an intentional dig at your team, I was just listing the players wearing letters.

No worries, didn't take it that way!

 

[Johnny Engine]

I don't have a problem giving Crosby a slight edge due to playoff play. Mikita has the better body of work in the regular season, but Crosby's playoffs are definitely superior. Taking both into account, it is close, but the edge goes to the Kid. As for Kariya... he isn't the primary puck carrier on that line, Mikita is. Kariya is the secondary puck carrier, which I think is something that your line may be lacking. Sedin never struck me as much of a puck carrier through the neutral zone, and while I never watched Cook play, he reads as someone who mainly attempted to bully his way to the net. Your line needs Crosby to be that guy to get into the zone (but then once there, your cycle should be incredible!), while my line has 2 players that can do the job.

Bullying your way to the net is still getting there, right?
Quotes like these, among others:

...played a very similar style to that of Gordie Howe - a hard and physically dominating style, overpowering his opponents, going through them instead of around them...

If he were around for us to see play today we would be in awe of his uncanny stickhandling skills, his "hard and fast" skating...

He was an outstanding stick-handler, a hard and fast skater...

...paint a picture of a guy who's going to be tough to knock off the puck, and will open up space for his linemates when he gains the zone and draws defenders.

I think the Stamkos/Francis matchup would be fascinating to watch. Stamkos is darn good at slipping away and getting open, while Francis is a darn good defensive center. That said, I don't buy the size thing; 2" and 6 pounds hardly gives Francis a substantial edge, especially considering Francis wasn't known for being physically dominating, nor is Stamkos known for wilting under physicality. I can buy your team having a slight advantage at C (though the 2 centers are being asked to do 2 very different things), but I am feeling more and more comfortable with placing both my wingers above your wingers. So, while it is close, I think I come out ahead here.

The size difference is bigger than that. Francis isn't exactly ancient history, but the biggest guys he faced (Kjell Samuelsson and Uwe Krupp), had 3 inches and 35 pounds on him. Compare that to the Charas, Byfugliens, Myers, Oleksiaks that Stamkos faced, and there's been some evolution in that time. Even Stamkos's best teammate is close to the same size as Krupp. Adjusted size would widen that gap by an inch and ten pounds, and even if you don't like that metric, that's noticeable.
Anyway, I think saying Francis wasn't "physically dominating" is barking up the wrong tree. He's a beast on the faceoff, and he doesn't have to lay a finger on any of your players to take up zone space with his larger-than-average body. To be honest, I don't even think that body measurements (adjusted or otherwise) even correlate all that well with aggression and brutishness in the ATD, but the big guys in this league all use their size to gain some advantage. Francis is no different.

If I was going to rank the six players, I would probably have them
Abel
Francis
Stamkos
Gilbert
Pitre/Phillips

Phillips belongs nowhere near the bottom of the list. He's got a litany of quotes describing him as the best and most complete player in the world of his day, and paced two Cup Champions in scoring while putting up high (if against questionable competition) league finished.

I'm going to challenge your assertion that Armstrong was a better defensive player than Kopitar. Kopitar consistently goes against opponents' top units, and usually comes out ahead. His Selke record is strong (4 top 3 finishes, at least 1 win). Armstrong seems like a great corner man, but I don't see anything in his bio that makes me think that he is better than Kopitar. Additionally, Kopitar is a center, which boosts his defensive value (as opposed to the winger Armstrong).

There may be some era bias here. Who's the equivalent of Armstrong, (or Provost, Pavelich, Pulford, Klukay, etc.) today? It's very possible that every single one of those players would be developed as a centre today, and I don't think its fair to discount their value because of how teams are built in this exact moment.

As for Roberts- are you thinking of the right Roberts? I don't think this one was ever a defender. This one's only real defensive history is a couple quotes from a Stanley Cup series. He's hardly a defensive stalwart, but I'm not trying to pass him off as one. Kopitar and Bailey are doing most of the work there, Roberts is there for some offense while not being useless defensively.

You may be right here. I'm going to keep looking to see if I can figure out what I'm thinking of. Either way, I can buy him in the role you have him in.[/QUOTE]

 

[Johnny Engine]

Surprised Johnny let rmartin65 get away so easily with his Parent > Belfour statement.

I'll go there.
Parent's back to back cups give him a little more "wow factor" when it comes to his standing specifically as a playoff performer, but the fact of the matter is that Belfour has himself 3 finals appearances, one win, and raises his career save percentage from .906 to .920. He has a himself 3 year run where he appeared in 17 or more games, with a 1.87 or lower GAA each time - and had to go through at least one of the Wings or Avalanche each time.
It's not as eye-popping as back-to-back Conn Smythes, but it's a picture of a guy who brought it in the playoffs many, many times.

I don't see this as a battle of a great playoff goalie versus a great regular season goalie - the dichotomy is more peak versus longevity. I think the goaltending battle is a close but decisive advantage for Guards and Belfour - and that both goaltenders have the ability to raise their games in high-leverage situations.