Rebuild/Retool?

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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He's shooting 21.5% as well when his career shooting % is 13.0.

Tavares is great, no question. But the difference between him in Toews isn't all that much and in 2-3 years people will likely be complaining about him being overpaid as well.

The difference between the two is pretty massive at this point..
 

migi

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Feb 25, 2015
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Is there anyway we can compete for Tavares? I mean if cap rises 7mil and you deal Seabrook away somehow even with some serious prospects, I'd do it.

I think Tavares wants to get paid but he also wants to win. 9x7, I would do it easily and deal other stuff later.
 

b1e9a8r5s

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Feb 16, 2015
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The difference between the two is pretty massive at this point..
For the start of this season sure. It's also just 27 games and Tavares isn't going to shoot 21% all year.

For the 2 seasons previous the difference between Toews and Tavares is 9 pts a season over 82 games. I have a hard time understanding how a 9 pt difference leads to the thought that Toews has to go and we can never win with him and wouldn't it be amazing if we could sign Tavarez to the Toews deal.
 

b1e9a8r5s

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Feb 16, 2015
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Is there anyway we can compete for Tavares? I mean if cap rises 7mil and you deal Seabrook away somehow even with some serious prospects, I'd do it.

I think Tavares wants to get paid but he also wants to win. 9x7, I would do it easily and deal other stuff later.

Pipe dream.
 

LordKOTL

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Aug 15, 2014
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I mean really? Are people naive enough to think Stan is just sitting there playing chess or words with friends? Making moves to make moves is worse than not making a move.
For the record, I wasn't posting making a move for the sake of making a move. And I do know that come the TDL, the 'hawks didn't look as anemic as they did afterwards.

The cut of my jib was that if Seabs, and any other high-price player who is deemed an albatross cannot be moved, the best thing to do was to try to limit Seabs' role (as has been happening), and plugging in some of the young guys to see if they can stand the heat--like Forsling. If they can't, we'll want to cycle them out (or any player which it's not cost-effective to retain for the duration said "albatross" contracts are signed), for personnel that would be ready when those contracts expire.

So, hypothetically, let's say Seabs is with us until 2024. We can't get rid of him in any way, shape or form and he won't leave money on the table, and there is no compliance buyout. What Stan (or any GM) should be doing is trying to acquire someone that, once 2024 hits, we have someone who can either step into that 1-2 defender role that Seabrook was paid for, or is already in that role but is due a paycheck when Seabs clears.

...and of course acquiring said player without mortgaging the farm. If it takes a player who could be in a step-in role (like El Gato for one of our core forwards), no, non, nein, nie, nyet. But, if the trade would be something like Hartman and Murph for a prospect of that ilk and a bad deal for a couple of years (as opposed to 6)...you consider it IMHO.
 

Toews2Bickell

It's Showtime
Nov 24, 2013
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For the record, I wasn't posting making a move for the sake of making a move. And I do know that come the TDL, the 'hawks didn't look as anemic as they did afterwards.

The cut of my jib was that if Seabs, and any other high-price player who is deemed an albatross cannot be moved, the best thing to do was to try to limit Seabs' role (as has been happening), and plugging in some of the young guys to see if they can stand the heat--like Forsling. If they can't, we'll want to cycle them out (or any player which it's not cost-effective to retain for the duration said "albatross" contracts are signed), for personnel that would be ready when those contracts expire.

So, hypothetically, let's say Seabs is with us until 2024. We can't get rid of him in any way, shape or form and he won't leave money on the table, and there is no compliance buyout. What Stan (or any GM) should be doing is trying to acquire someone that, once 2024 hits, we have someone who can either step into that 1-2 defender role that Seabrook was paid for, or is already in that role but is due a paycheck when Seabs clears.

...and of course acquiring said player without mortgaging the farm. If it takes a player who could be in a step-in role (like El Gato for one of our core forwards), no, non, nein, nie, nyet. But, if the trade would be something like Hartman and Murph for a prospect of that ilk and a bad deal for a couple of years (as opposed to 6)...you consider it IMHO.

I think you make good points, but the process you describe cannot effectively start until they fire Q.

They need to get Bowman's next guy in there and begin the evaluation process with a new voice in the room/system, etc.

I'm ready to just promote Colliton. f*** it. Cannot be worse than the shit lineup management Q is deploying.

Unfortunately I think Q will get the entire season to right the ship and they'll make a sweeping change if they lose in the first round/miss playoffs.
 

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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For the start of this season sure. It's also just 27 games and Tavares isn't going to shoot 21% all year.

For the 2 seasons previous the difference between Toews and Tavares is 9 pts a season over 82 games. I have a hard time understanding how a 9 pt difference leads to the thought that Toews has to go and we can never win with him and wouldn't it be amazing if we could sign Tavarez to the Toews deal.

Tavares is in his prime, Toews is not.. it really is that simple.

Is there a chance Tavares falls of a cliff like Toews? Sure of course, but it doesn't mean he will.. unlike Toews who already has.

Tavares will score you 30 every year, it is extremely unlikely Toews ever does that again, hell at this point he might not even be a consistent 20 goal man in the future and 60 points seems unlikely too.
 

ChiHawks10

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Jul 7, 2009
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Tavares is in his prime, Toews is not.. it really is that simple.

Is there a chance Tavares falls of a cliff like Toews? Sure of course, but it doesn't mean he will.. unlike Toews who already has.

Tavares will score you 30 every year, it is extremely unlikely Toews ever does that again, hell at this point he might not even be a consistent 20 goal man in the future and 60 points seems unlikely too.

You're aware that Tavares is only two years younger than Toews, right?
 

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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You're aware that Tavares is only two years younger than Toews, right?

and? 2 years ago Toews hit a wall and couldn't even put up 60 points, yet now Tavares is having a great year so far.

Not everyone is a Toews or Mike Richards. Alot of players are able to play at a high level well into their 30s... just because we have two in Toews and Seabrook doesn't mean the trigger should not be pulled when the chance comes along.
 

ChiHawks10

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and? 2 years ago Toews hit a wall and couldn't even put up 60 points, yet now Tavares is having a great year so far.

Not everyone is a Toews or Mike Richards. Alot of players are able to play at a high level well into their 30s... just because we have two in Toews and Seabrook doesn't mean the trigger should not be pulled when the chance comes along.

And you're rolling the dice that it doesn't happen to Tavares. There's not a single thing to say that it won't. Then if it happens, you'll be bitching about how he's overpaid like Toews was and they should have never given him 8 years at 8m or some shit like that.

But the "And?" that you're asking for... is the fact that you're talking about Tavares as if he's 20 years old and referred to him as "in his prime" when he's only two years younger than Toews. Toews, technically, should be in his prime, also. For forwards, I consider the eight years from 24-32 as their prime, and then many start to trend downwards from that early 30's point on.
 

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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And you're rolling the dice that it doesn't happen to Tavares. There's not a single thing to say that it won't. Then if it happens, you'll be *****ing about how he's overpaid like Toews was and they should have never given him 8 years at 8m or some **** like that.

But the "And?" that you're asking for... is the fact that you're talking about Tavares as if he's 20 years old and referred to him as "in his prime" when he's only two years younger than Toews. Toews, technically, should be in his prime, also. For forwards, I consider the eight years from 24-32 as their prime, and then many start to trend downwards from that early 30's point on.

It is a risk worth taking, I really don't see any downside to it.

It obviously won't happen but if the opportunity arises I think you would have to do it 100% of the time.

I believe Tavares will keep his high level of play up well into his 30s, like you are seeing with many of the elite centers today... not everyone is Richards or Toews.
 

ChiHawks10

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It is a risk worth taking, I really don't see any downside to it.

It obviously won't happen but if the opportunity arises I think you would have to do it 100% of the time.

I believe Tavares will keep his high level of play up well into his 30s, like you are seeing with many of the elite centers today... not everyone is Richards or Toews.

I wouldn't complain if they brought him in somehow.

And Toews is not Richards. They shouldn't be talked about as if they're the same.
 

x Tame Impala

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@CokenoPepsi save it for the main boards. The Hawks aren't trading their franchise center away. They just spent the last 10 years marketing the franchise around him. Just stop.

On topic, a rebuild absolutely won't happen. There's too much money to be made from Hawks tickets. Wirtz, McD, & Co. won't want to lower ticket prices because the Hawks are playing rebuild hockey. They spent too much time turning the franchise around this past decade to do that and I'm actually a little worried that the Hawks will linger in mediocrity for the next 10 years because of that.

A retool is meaningless without a new coach who can adapt to the new NHL so all the hypotheticals and speculations are personally meaningless to me unless Q is gone. He should've been fired 10 games ago and he's costing the Hawks their season.

No to mention the ~$13 million in dead cap from Hossa and Seabrook. Unless both of those problems are fixed then it won't make a difference.
 

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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@CokenoPepsi save it for the main boards. The Hawks aren't trading their franchise center away. They just spent the last 10 years marketing the franchise around him. Just stop.

On topic, a rebuild absolutely won't happen. There's too much money to be made from Hawks tickets. Wirtz, McD, & Co. won't want to lower ticket prices because the Hawks are playing rebuild hockey. They spent too much time turning the franchise around this past decade to do that and I'm actually a little worried that the Hawks will linger in mediocrity for the next 10 years because of that.

A retool is meaningless without a new coach who can adapt to the new NHL so all the hypotheticals and speculations are personally meaningless to me unless Q is gone. He should've been fired 10 games ago and he's costing the Hawks their season.

No to mention the ~$13 million in dead cap from Hossa and Seabrook. Unless both of those problems are fixed then it won't make a difference.

Oh I agree with that, I have said many times there is no way the hawks would trade Toews due to the marketing alone, it isn't what is best for the team what is best for the wallet (in the short term anyhow)
 

x Tame Impala

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It's not the wallet. Any insane hypothetical where Toews is traded and we sign Tavares would cost more money anyway. It's marketing and brand recognition. Chicago and (most importantly) casual Hawks fans love Toews. They know Toews. They associate the Blackhawks with him and they buy tickets to see him and Kane play. John Tavares is a f***ing nobody to them.
 

Marotte Marauder

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Aug 10, 2008
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It's not the wallet. Any insane hypothetical where Toews is traded and we sign Tavares would cost more money anyway. It's marketing and brand recognition. Chicago and (most importantly) casual Hawks fans love Toews. They know Toews. They associate the Blackhawks with him and they buy tickets to see him and Kane play. John Tavares is a ****ing nobody to them.

That could change pretty quickly. When Toews arrived there were 5,000 of us going to games and it took a while for the team to improve to where people noticed.

Tavares would be walking into a much better situation.

If Gretzky could get traded...
 

hawksfan50

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Feb 27, 2002
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Well you could go for the long slide into stinker lije Detroit has sunk for a long time since their glory days if you keep homage to the old now albatross stars and their contracts ...But no way Tavares goes here even if we had tge cap space to pay hom market price..He can see this is a sinking ship that is at best a bubble team ..must be better chances to win a Cup in next 3-5 years elsewhere than Chicago.

Better Stan re-tools at tge 2019 2029 and 2021 drafts which may be the 3 best consecutive draft pools EVER ...so deep and creamy you want to have lots of picks and early picks..coukd re-set for new dynasty of Stan or whoever is GM plays the right cards..if you let Marketing Dept. Sentimentality rum the operation then we are DOOMED to a much Starke long long future..we all know you cannot get good from being just a bubble team year after year just for marketing g ...eg..just barely make playoffs and that will keep the fools paying big bucks to watch mediocrity.
 

DisgruntledHawkFan

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Jun 19, 2004
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That could change pretty quickly. When Toews arrived there were 5,000 of us going to games and it took a while for the team to improve to where people noticed.

Tavares would be walking into a much better situation.

If Gretzky could get traded...
Unless there's suddenly a return of prohibition I don't think Rocky is going to be cash strapped anytime soon. Gretzky wasn't a hockey trade.
 

CokenoPepsi

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Oct 28, 2016
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It's not the wallet. Any insane hypothetical where Toews is traded and we sign Tavares would cost more money anyway. It's marketing and brand recognition. Chicago and (most importantly) casual Hawks fans love Toews. They know Toews. They associate the Blackhawks with him and they buy tickets to see him and Kane play. John Tavares is a ****ing nobody to them.

Exactly, the wallet.. they are worried it would upset all the little fans with their "Marry me Tazer!" signs.

But they should not be afraid, people will come watch a winner play sure there might be a few upset feelings for a week or two but those would fade with a new powerhouse team.
 

ChiHawk21

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Jan 15, 2011
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i think we will be able to outright buy seabrook out with no cap hit by 2020 when there is another lockout just like the last time. I didnt expect him to be so bad so quick.
 

ColdSteel2

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Aug 27, 2010
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Exactly, the wallet.. they are worried it would upset all the little fans with their "Marry me Tazer!" signs.

But they should not be afraid, people will come watch a winner play sure there might be a few upset feelings for a week or two but those would fade with a new powerhouse team.

If this team stays mediocre, they will stop selling out and it might even get ugly...unless they cut ticket prices. Hockey still isn’t popular enough here to withstand a rebuild or even a retool. As soon as it isn’t trendy to be a Blackhawks fan anymore, people will start to file out. I think they know this and will do ANYTHING transaction wise to avoid it.
 

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