Rebuild/Retool?

b1e9a8r5s

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A couple of the individual player threads were evolving into discussions on rebuilding vs retooling or however else you want to phrase it so I figured I'd start a catch all thread if anyone wants to discuss that here instead of getting off topic in those threads.

I think talk of rebuilding is premature. And I would certainly advocate trying a new coach before making any huge moves like trading from the core (Seabs not withstanding).
 

CallMeShaft

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Apr 14, 2014
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We shouldn't rebuild yet and we're already doing a bit of a retool. The Hawks don't need to be sellers. They need to put the players who deserve to play in the lineup on an every game basis. They need to give players who are performing well (Brinsky) time in a bigger role. If that fails, you look at shaking up coaching and management.

But teams wallow in mediocrity for a long time when they try to rebuild. Oilers, Sabres, and Yotes are a demonstration of how damn hard it is to do successfully. None of us should want that until it's the last possible option.
 

b1e9a8r5s

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They are re-tooling. They've got three guys 21 and under playing major roles.
I agree, that's what they are doing but it seems several people think they should be doing more than that. Maybe it's just the frustration with the current situation talking but I didn't want to go off topic in other threads if people wanted to have the discussion.
 

CallMeShaft

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Apr 14, 2014
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I agree, that's what they are doing but it seems several people think they should be doing more than that. Maybe it's just the frustration with the current situation talking but I didn't want to go off topic in other threads if people wanted to have the discussion.
Or maybe we just have a few crazy posters who over exaggerate everything...
 

ChiHawks10

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Miss the playoffs this season. Get absolutely lucky and land a lotto pick in the top 3. Grab a game-changing center. Rebuild done. :laugh:

Could you imagine the main boards if the Hawks finished one spot outside the playoffs and managed to land the #1 OA with a .9% chance? I'd love watching it burn to the ground.
 

Salvaged Ship

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Its next to impossible to do a big rebuild when your team is full of declining vets with long term NMC contracts and not playing near their AAV’s. To have a chance to move some of these guys you would have to include draft picks or young assets which is exactly what you are trying to accumulate if you are rebuilding.

The options are limited. You pretty much have to build around this aging core and hope the cap goes up, you can accumulate enough young assets through the draft, you can sign some young free agents, and coaching changes make this aging core more effective. To me it looks like we are in a natural decline that we are stuck with and unless we get some great young players that can carry this aging core we will continue to slowly decline. Its the chance you take signing all the vets to long term fat contracts, hoping they continue to play at a high level.
 

LDF

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Miss the playoffs this season. Get absolutely lucky and land a lotto pick in the top 3. Grab a game-changing center. Rebuild done. :laugh:

Could you imagine the main boards if the Hawks finished one spot outside the playoffs and managed to land the #1 OA with a .9% chance? I'd love watching it burn to the ground.
i have been reading up on next yr draft and picking in the top 10, there are some really exciting prospects and yes they are offensive side of the puck.
 

Kaners Bald Spot

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Its next to impossible to do a big rebuild when your team is full of declining vets with long term NMC contracts and not playing near their AAV’s. To have a chance to move some of these guys you would have to include draft picks or young assets which is exactly what you are trying to accumulate if you are rebuilding.

The options are limited. You pretty much have to build around this aging core and hope the cap goes up, you can accumulate enough young assets through the draft, you can sign some young free agents, and coaching changes make this aging core more effective. To me it looks like we are in a natural decline that we are stuck with and unless we get some great young players that can carry this aging core we will continue to slowly decline. Its the chance you take signing all the vets to long term fat contracts, hoping they continue to play at a high level.
You have to take a couple steps back to go forward with the highly paid vets. The best thing the Hawks could do is miss the playofs in 18 and 19 and be toward the bottom of the league, and get some top end talent to supplement 19/88 toward the end of their careers, and hopefully be back to contention in 2020. Keith will probably always be worth his cap hit so you don't have to worry about him. If it costs Schmaltz or DeBrincat to dump Seabs, you bite the bullet and do it. You're going into a mini-rebuild. It really doesn't matter. They should also be taking chances on underperforming high first rounders such as Sam Bennett, Sam Reinhart, and Galchenyuk. There are no guarantees, but they have to try something, because standing pat will do nothing.
 

LDF

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Sep 28, 2016
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Its next to impossible to do a big rebuild when your team is full of declining vets with long term NMC contracts and not playing near their AAV’s. To have a chance to move some of these guys you would have to include draft picks or young assets which is exactly what you are trying to accumulate if you are rebuilding.

The options are limited. You pretty much have to build around this aging core and hope the cap goes up, you can accumulate enough young assets through the draft, you can sign some young free agents, and coaching changes make this aging core more effective. To me it looks like we are in a natural decline that we are stuck with and unless we get some great young players that can carry this aging core we will continue to slowly decline. Its the chance you take signing all the vets to long term fat contracts, hoping they continue to play at a high level.
rebuilding, yeah i mention it yesterday out of spite. but i really hate to see the rebuild. the main problem is this, the Bhawks main bosses will not agree and i am wondering if SB is capable of making the necessary trade, change in the team to do it.

the natural decline is what i believe the org took seriously. i also believe that Q is not the coach who can operate around the nuisance of a team that will need patience. esp if the young players are expected to develop into something special.

the other part is, in theory the salary cap will increase, but can the org make the necessary moves to make it work ??
 

LDF

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You have to take a couple steps back to go forward with the highly paid vets. The best thing the Hawks could do is miss the playofs in 18 and 19 and be toward the bottom of the league, and get some top end talent to supplement 19/88 toward the end of their careers, and hopefully be back to contention in 2020. Keith will probably always be worth his cap hit so you don't have to worry about him.

#2 -- If it costs Schmaltz or DeBrincat to dump Seabs, you bite the bullet and do it. You're going into a mini-rebuild
. It really doesn't matter. They should also be taking chances on underperforming high first rounders such as Sam Bennett, Sam Reinhart, and Galchenyuk. There are no guarantees, but they have to try something, because standing pat will do nothing.

ref #1 bold, keith, imho can be worth his contract now, if he is move to the middle pairing D-man and i can see him as being a great mentor.

ref #2, that is the price that will need to be paid, but i would refuse to include D-cat in any pkg.
 

Kaners Bald Spot

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ref #1 bold, keith, imho can be worth his contract now, if he is move to the middle pairing D-man and i can see him as being a great mentor.

ref #2, that is the price that will need to be paid, but i would refuse to include D-cat in any pkg.
ref#2, If I could dump Seabs without losing DeBrincat, I would, but there is some collusion in the league vs. the Hawks and it wouldn't surprise me if it took him to move that contract. It would be a hard pill to swallow. I would wait until the next CBA fight to see if there are any compliance buyouts but if it doesn't look that way, act beforehand.
 

Salvaged Ship

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ref #1 bold, keith, imho can be worth his contract now, if he is move to the middle pairing D-man and i can see him as being a great mentor.

ref #2, that is the price that will need to be paid, but i would refuse to include D-cat in any pkg.
Agreed, you dont give up Debrincat just to get rid of Seabrook. Debrincat is exactly the kind of player you need for the future. Schmaltz fine, but if you have to include Cat just to dump Seabrook you are better off just keeping him.
 
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b1e9a8r5s

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I can't get behind moving a guy like Cat to get rid of Seabs. No way. Cat is the kind of player that the Hawks need to find in the draft. A top level talent. In all likely hood there will be some kind of compliance buyout in the new CBA like there always is. Wait the 2 (I think it's 2 years) to dump Seabs for free instead of giving up your best young offensive player.
 

featherhawk

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Already in a retool which was too late IMO but whatever.

The problem with the process so far is that the coach had not been replaced, he needs to be gone if the retool will succeed. He is not on the same page.

The longer that they wait to make changes to the coaching staff and bring in staff that will embrace the change is just wasted time, no good will come of it.

If they wait till next year or the of season to make a change with coaches then I am off the opinion that they should blow it up and try to trade jt, seabrook, crow and yes Kane if the offer is that good.

Might need to send Stan packing also to get a clean slate

If they change coaches in the near future and Ice the best team possible then the retool that has been started may work but I have my doubts

At this point you don't give anyone better than hartman away to rid yourself of 7
 

Kaners Bald Spot

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Agreed, you dont give up Debrincat just to get rid of Seabrook. Debrincat is exactly the kind of player you need for the future. Schmaltz fine, but if you have to include Cat just to dump Seabrook you are better off just keeping him.
But if DeBrincat is as good as we think he is, then the Hawks won't be able to afford him because he's costing at least 7.5-8.5 off his ELC anyway, and with the salary structure currently in place it will be nearly impossible to fit him in. So you have to look at it this way: 1) He's under control for the 3 seasons the Hawks aren't competing 2) It is unlikely that they will be able to fit him under the cap. 3) Seabs is a huge problem and since the Hawks won't have DeBrincat past 19-20 anyway, so what does it matter?
 

ChiHawks10

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Already in a retool which was too late IMO but whatever.

The problem with the process so far is that the coach had not been replaced, he needs to be gone if the retool will succeed. He is not on the same page.

The longer that they wait to make changes to the coaching staff and bring in staff that will embrace the change is just wasted time, no good will come of it.

If they wait till next year or the of season to make a change with coaches then I am off the opinion that they should blow it up and try to trade jt, seabrook, crow and yes Kane if the offer is that good.

Might need to send Stan packing also to get a clean slate

If they change coaches in the near future and I've the best team possible then the retool that has been started may work but I have my doubts

At this point you don't give anyone better than hartman away to rid yourself of 7

Then 7 is staying for the next couple years, at least. Because there's no way that Hartman gets anyone to bite on Seabs and his contract. If you're going to get anyone to bite on Seabs' contract, it would have to be Cat, Schmaltz, or Forsling included at this point.

And Seabs is fine... when put in the proper role. If he plays 15 minutes a night or less, and is rested on B2Bs, his play is more than adequate.

As far as the rest of it... you're talking about a full-blown rebuild to the extent of the Hawks being the team they were in the mid 90's again. They don't need a full blown rebuild... Far from it.

They have done a pretty damn good job of retooling on the fly. If Toews and/or Seabs were the same player they were a few years ago, this team(as constructed) is a Cup favorite. That doesn't say full rebuild to me. That says you're a good piece or two away from contending for another couple years.
 

LDF

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ref#2, If I could dump Seabs without losing DeBrincat, I would, but there is some collusion in the league vs. the Hawks and it wouldn't surprise me if it took him to move that contract. It would be a hard pill to swallow. I would wait until the next CBA fight to see if there are any compliance buyouts but if it doesn't look that way, act beforehand.
if D-cat is a necessity for moving Seabs, then screw it, put him in the press box next season.
 

b1e9a8r5s

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But if DeBrincat is as good as we think he is, then the Hawks won't be able to afford him because he's costing at least 7.5-8.5 off his ELC anyway, and with the salary structure currently in place it will be nearly impossible to fit him in. So you have to look at it this way: 1) He's under control for the 3 seasons the Hawks aren't competing 2) It is unlikely that they will be able to fit him under the cap. 3) Seabs is a huge problem and since the Hawks won't have DeBrincat past 19-20 anyway, so what does it matter?

1) I definitely don't accept that this team is done for the next 3 seasons, and actually the only way to assure that they are done is by trading the young guys who are getting better like Cat

2) Projecting where the cap is 3 years seems dubious. There will be a new CBA in that time and how the cap is calculated could be changed, to say nothing about any possible revenue growth in that time. Wasn't there talk that next years cap could go up 4-5 mil?

3) Along with the new CBA, likely comes a compliance buyout, if the past is any indicator. Get rid of the Seabs then.
 
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LordKOTL

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You're looking at 31M on the books until 2023 with ironclad NMCs. If Seabs is jettisoned that's still over 20m. The rebuild isn't happening until Keith and Seabs are gone, and if they're resigned, Kane and Toews are signed for less.

Right now the 'hawks need to be looking at who's next, and part of that is timing--5 years out. Who is going to be coming up right about when TKKS are heading out? Those are the guys we should be grooming--be it the next core batch or important depth.
 
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LDF

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But if DeBrincat is as good as we think he is, then the Hawks won't be able to afford him because he's costing at least 7.5-8.5 off his ELC anyway, and with the salary structure currently in place it will be nearly impossible to fit him in. So you have to look at it this way: 1) He's under control for the 3 seasons the Hawks aren't competing 2) It is unlikely that they will be able to fit him under the cap. 3) Seabs is a huge problem and since the Hawks won't have DeBrincat past 19-20 anyway, so what does it matter?
ref D-cat, well no one can see what the future holds for him. but as you and many others are thinking about, he is too valuable to move. i would rather roll the dice for another day.
 

LDF

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You're looking at 31M on the books until 2023 with ironclad NMCs. If Seabs is jettisoned that's still over 20m. The rebuild isn't happening until Keith and Seabs are gone, and if they're resigned, Kane and Toews are signed for less.

Right now the 'hawks need to be looking at who's next, and part of that is timing--5 years out. Who is going to be coming up right about when TKKS are heading out? Those are the guys we should be grooming--be it the next core batch or important depth.
i agree but the dilemma, what can the team do in the next 3 yrs ..... nothing ?? would the owners like that, ?? will the fans like that ??
 

ChiHawks10

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i agree but the dilemma, what can the team do in the next 3 yrs ..... nothing ?? would the owners like that, ?? will the fans like that ??

What are you talking about here? They can play hockey. They can let their GM do his job, and try to put the best team on the ice as they possibly can each season. They can fire the coach, or "promote" him, or whatever they feel like doing with him.

People need to stop talking about this team like they're the damn Avs or Yotes. With very poor play a large chunk of this season, they're still only out of a playoff spot by a single damn point. And they're always good for at least a string of 6-8 wins in a row at any point in the season.

Why do people act like the Hawks have to dominate and win the division in order to have success in the playoffs?
 

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