Reality Check - Time for players to listen to it's fans - majority opinion

[Brent Burns Beard]

No, but he can hold out and force a trade or seek arbitration.

1) if he has completed the terms of his contract, isnt it his right if he chooses to not play pro hockey unless he is paid an amount he thinks is fair ? if some player has completed his deal and decides he wont play in the NHL for less than $5,000,000, than isnt that his right ? Lord knows, you could ask for it from your employer and hold out if he doesnt pay it. Why shouldnt a hockey player have that right ?

2) whats wrong with a player forcing a trade ? besides, how many times a year does it happen ? once or twice ? out of 700 players ? hardly a problem.

3) players are willing to negotiate abritration. in fact, im sure if the owners agreed to no cap, the players would give up arbitration all together.

hardly reasons to support a lockout.

dr

 

[HckyFght*]

When Major League Baseball was threatening another labor strike a couple of years ago the hue and cry from fans around the country was so spontaneous and loud that both union and management shriveled back under the rocks they had crawled out from under. I think hockey fans this past year knew things needed fixing, from salary structure, to the rules changes that have neutered the quality of games being played on the ice. Fans have said all over North America they were willing to lose a season so the NHL could get it right. It's not just one poll people are looking at, these opinions have been coming from all quarters. The biggest danger the league faces is a long lay-off, and then NOT getting it fixed. Getting salaries back in balance is only half the job. The union will never have a chance when ownership is unified, so the union will lose, it's just a matter of time. No big deal. The noises that scare me are the ones that the league is making about the "New NHL." An NHL that is still courting a misguided notion that TV riches are right around the corner if only they could find the appropriate mix of concessions in the concept of what a hockey game is, changing the product into something that will make the networks finally agree this league will be a winner on television. That is a pie-in-the-sky theorem that will only lead the owners down the road to perdition. Labor deal or no labor deal. I don't want a "New NHL," I want the "Old NHL" back! Fans opinions count greatly, but we need to be loud and clear about what we want.
-HckyFght!

 

[eye]

Changing thr size of the goalie equipment won't change which goalies are best at all. Take a look at the AHL sv%. They are using the smaller goalie equipment. Bottom line is that goalies are that good now, and sv% will never drop anywhere close to previous levels (.890 - .905)

Do you ever try to look at both sides of a debate? The AHL are not using the smaller goalie equipment this year so it shows how much you have been paying attention. Put 10" pads on Kiprusoff with a normal sized catcher and the Flames don't see the 2nd round last year. Goalie equipment and not calling the rules are the 2 great equalizers and the only reasons small market clubs have a chance to compete. That's one of the reasons the owners want to fix a broken league that right now doesn't allow it's stars to shine or the skills of our players to stand out and make a difference.

 

[eye]

The only reputable poll I've seen has the majority of people not giving a damn about either side. Why you ask? Common sense!!

If you used some of this common sense you would acknowledge that the NHL is in need of major repair. Every poll taken by TSN, ESPN, Sportsnet, Hockey's Future is around 80% supportive of the owners so your in the minority and I'm guessing you have something personal at stake here.

 

[HckyFght*]

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing about letting players "display their skills." Leave it to the players and they will outlaw defense and all wear bubble-wrap. I care not a whitt about what players want. As a paying customer I expect to be given what I want. I want to see players who care enough about the team and the game to play hard and make some sacrifices for the money they make, money I am willing to pay dearly to get that kind of entertainment. Shrink goalie equipment by half, and don't call anything unless it interferes with the logical movement of the puck around the ice. I feel opposite to lots of you. I think rules should be called subjectively, not objectively. Not every malfeasance is worth stopping the game over.
-HckyFght!

 

[YellHockey*]

If you used some of this common sense you would acknowledge that the NHL is in need of major repair. Every poll taken by TSN, ESPN, Sportsnet, Hockey's Future is around 80% supportive of the owners so your in the minority and I'm guessing you have something personal at stake here.

From here.

More than 60 per cent of National Capital residents do not miss the National Hockey League, according to a Decima Research poll commissioned by the Citizen.

That means that the vast majority of people don't give a damn about the lockout.

Do you have a link to a reputable poll to back up your claims or are you just referring to fanboy polls where 12 year olds vote over and over again?

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Put 10" pads on Kiprusoff with a normal sized catcher and the Flames don't see the 2nd round last year. Goalie equipment and not calling the rules are the 2 great equalizers and the only reasons small market clubs have a chance to compete. That's one of the reasons the owners want to fix a broken league that right now doesn't allow it's stars to shine or the skills of our players to stand out and make a difference.

You think Kipper is the only goalie using the bigger equipment ???

All NHL goalies use pads that are 12" wide. Now some use longer pads than others, but the width for goalies is the same.

A salary cap isn't going to make the game more wide open. Coaches that get fired if they lose, will continue to demand that players play defense. That isn't going to change.

If you want more wide open hockey, make it so that 28 teams make the playoffs, the regular season will lack importance (like it did during the 1980's) and teams will play more wide-open, and then try and buckle down during the playoffs.

Me, I prefer the regular season to mean something.



The NHL & NHLPA have no hidden ulterior motives in this dispute. It's about $$$$$ and only about $$$$$. It has nothing to do with trying to make the on-ice product better.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

If you used some of this common sense you would acknowledge that the NHL is in need of major repair. Every poll taken by TSN, ESPN, Sportsnet, Hockey's Future is around 80% supportive of the owners so your in the minority and I'm guessing you have something personal at stake here.

Sure the NHL is in need of repair...but the question is how to fix the problems? Its not just common sense that the owners' plan is better than any other potential plan. Plus, all these polls you refer to with 80% supporting the owners doesn't make the other 20% of the opinions any less valid. Everyone can have an opinion and guess what, its virtually impossible to prove an opinion right or wrong. So you can keep referring to the 80% number all you want...doesn't really change anything that its just an opinion and no more important than the other 20%. BTW, every fan that has an opinion has something personal at stake...otherwise, we wouldn't be spending our hard earned money on the sport!

 

[eye]

From here.

More than 60 per cent of National Capital residents do not miss the National Hockey League, according to a Decima Research poll commissioned by the Citizen.

That means that the vast majority of people don't give a damn about the lockout.

Do you have a link to a reputable poll to back up your claims or are you just referring to fanboy polls where 12 year olds vote over and over again?

Not missing the game is one thing but every poll that I have read and there are many support the owners over the players. You can only vote once on the polls I referred to and their all there for your easy reading and reference.

 

[eye]

You think Kipper is the only goalie using the bigger equipment ???

All NHL goalies use pads that are 12" wide. Now some use longer pads than others, but the width for goalies is the same.

A salary cap isn't going to make the game more wide open. Coaches that get fired if they lose, will continue to demand that players play defense. That isn't going to change.

If you want more wide open hockey, make it so that 28 teams make the playoffs, the regular season will lack importance (like it did during the 1980's) and teams will play more wide-open, and then try and buckle down during the playoffs.

Me, I prefer the regular season to mean something.

The NHL & NHLPA have no hidden ulterior motives in this dispute. It's about $$$$$ and only about $$$$$. It has nothing to do with trying to make the on-ice product better.

First you say the AHL goalies are using the smaller pads which was incorrect and now your saying the length is different. There are restrictions on length as well. Kiprusoff was the biggest reason the Flames made it past Round One and as far as they did. He wouldn't have been as big a difference maker if he was wearing normal sized equipment. I know both goalies were wearing the same or similar sized equipment but Kiprusoff's equimpment more than made up for lack of team skill and complimented the Flames style of play.

The NHL want to open up the game as part of the next CBA, and that's another reason for this lockout. The owners and NHL execs want the right to implement changes to the game without the NHLPA always sticking their nose into it and prevent the necessary improvements that this game has needed for sometime now.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

From here.

More than 60 per cent of National Capital residents do not miss the National Hockey League, according to a Decima Research poll commissioned by the Citizen.

That means that the vast majority of people don't give a damn about the lockout.

Do you have a link to a reputable poll to back up your claims or are you just referring to fanboy polls where 12 year olds vote over and over again?

I think your reading comprehension needs some work. The poll in Ottawa was about whether people miss the national hockey league, not which side of the argument they stand on. As for polls there have been many on such sites as ESPN, THN, Slam, TSN, etc. and the majority of those have returned results heavily in favor of the owners. I'm not sure how many "fanboys" voted in these, but I suspect that more "fanboys" would be entrenched on the players' side as those that voice their concern on the PA side are predominantly focused on individual players and their rights to make massive amounts of money, rather than the NHLPA collective. The whole "fanboy" mentality entails that you are obsessed with one player/team, and not the whole body/league. Seems unlikely that the "fanboys" would be behind a bunch of stodgy owners. At least that's what my perception of the "fanboy" phenomina has been.

 

[CoolburnIsGone]

I think your reading comprehension needs some work. The poll in Ottawa was about whether people miss the national hockey league, not which side of the argument they stand on.

But what you need to realize is that those that don't miss the NHL also probably didn't vote in all these polls that are being referred to. And this is in capital of Canada...can you imagine what the results of a similar poll would be in the US, particularly in the southern US? I'd bet that its probably 75% of residents don't even realize that hockey is locked out (not even if they miss it but they don't even care). As I mentioned before, who exactly these polls consist of is important to determine the actual statistical significance within the group voting out of the entire fan population. I think the saying is "Lies, damn Lies, and Statistics"!

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

Oh I agree with you. I live in the southern States and no one even notices hockey isn't going on. Its a non-issue and the voting would be skewed a bit IMO. But when you do manage to track down a hockey fan (I know a bunch because I skate with them every now and then) they are usually firmly on the owners side. I think the 80/20 break is a pretty good call as to what the break down is. Its not just "fanboys" who feel that way, but the guys who are hurting because hockey is not being played.

 

[I in the Eye]

its virtually impossible to prove an opinion right or wrong. So you can keep referring to the 80% number all you want...

In fact (relatively speaking), it's impossible for us humans to prove anything right or wrong with 100% certainty... We don't have the "tools" to inspect or authenticate anything to degrees of infinity... and even if we could "know" something with 100% certainty (which we can't), the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle results in yet another factor that would render us infinitely uncertain...

According to what I've read...

Polls mean very little other than an opinion at a particular moment (and who is being polled is just as important as the questions being asked - IMO, the opinion of season ticket holders is what matters most of all, since hockey is a gate-driven business)... and IMO, the NHL is in for a big shock if they think that a prolonged lockout won't trigger a major setback to NHL hockey - in terms of decreasing season ticket renewals in addition to increasing apathy...

 

[Trottier]

I appreciate the counter-arguments to my post. Will simply offer the following.

No, I'm not related to Bob Goodenow.

Yes, TAT, I made my money running my own successful business (marketing/PR, ironically) and am comfortably semi-retired less than two full decades out of school, so I know just a bit about it. Would love to share with you offline, if interested. We could start with a discussion about how you will let your customers' POV dictate your strategy the next time you are involved in a labor negotiation. Perhaps you would take a poll and go with popular opinion. I wouldn't and certainly Goodenow and Bettman, as custodians of hundreds of millions of dollars and with hundreds of players careers at stake, won't either.

CarlRacki - You are correct. Fans are not irrelevant. They are paying customers. However, count me out when one suggests (as someone did in this thread) that fans are "as important as the owners and players". One gets the feeling that some think that Joe Smuck from MooseJaw should be sitting at the negotiating table with the two sides. Let's get real.

Eye - The impetus for my comment about the fans' relative lack of importance in this situation was the subject title of the thread:

"Time for players to listen to it's fans - majority opinion" (emphasis added)

You may agree with that mentality, namely that business decisions should be based upon fan polls. Sorry, not me.

And belittling the accomplishments of Calgary, Anaheim and Carolina is petty. You don't get to the Finals by virtue of luck (or larger goalie equipment!) C'mon! Damn straight those teams deserved to be there. In what bizarro world does a team win three series over two months of the most physically and mentally grinding hockey in the world, without earning it? Let me guess: your team didn't make it?

 

[codswallop]

I appreciate the counter-arguments to my post. Will simply offer the following.

No, I'm not related to Bob Goodenow.

Yes, TAT, I made my money running my own successful business (marketing/PR, ironically) and am comfortably semi-retired less than two full decades out of school, so I know just a bit about it. Would love to share with you offline, if interested. We could start with a discussion about how you will let your customers' POV dictate your strategy the next time you are involved in a labor negotiation. Perhaps you would take a poll and go with popular opinion. I wouldn't and certainly Goodenow and Bettman, as custodians of hundreds of millions of dollars and with hundreds of players careers at stake, won't either.

CarlRacki - You are correct. Fans are not irrelevant. They are paying customers. However, count me out when one suggests (as someone did in this thread) that fans are "as important as the owners and players". One gets the feeling that some think that Joe Smuck from MooseJaw should be sitting at the negotiating table with the two sides. Let's get real.

Eye - The impetus for my comment about the fans' relative lack of importance in this situation was the subject title of the thread:

"Time for players to listen to it's fans - majority opinion" (emphasis added)

You may agree with that mentality, namely that business decisions should be based upon fan polls. Sorry, not me.

And belittling the accomplishments of Calgary, Anaheim and Carolina is petty. You don't get to the Finals by virtue of luck (or larger goalie equipment!) C'mon! Damn straight those teams deserved to be there. In what bizarro world does a team win three series over two months of the most physically and mentally grinding hockey in the world, without earning it? Let me guess: your team didn't make it?

The majority of people who post here tend to zone in on a certain subject, and subsequently take the context out of the overall issue. On occasion, that's a good thing (if the poster has experience with that certain subject). But, by and large, it's not a good thing. Too much opinion and too little factual knowledge radiate throughout these threads for us to take them seriously. The need to, in any way, berate the comments of others seems unnecessary and tends to serve as antagonistic more than anything else.

Take this comment with my context: I'm Economics/Management by trade but the psychology in a given situation is a skill that I've developed. How I came by this is not a story that needs to be told here, even if relevant.

Not trying to come off as a pr*ck, though that has been said of me many times before. Just trying to smooth the waters, as much as is humanly possible on these boards.