Rank These Goalies

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by arrbez, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    In what order would you rank these goalies, and why?

    Olaf Kolzig
    Curtis Joseph
    Mike Richter
    John Vanbiesbrouck
    Ron Hextall
    Tom Barrasso
    Mike Vernon
     
  2. God Bless Canada

    God Bless Canada Registered User

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    Let's get the easy one out of the way now. Mike Vernon is definitely No. 1 on this list. A two-time Cup champion, a two-time Cup finalist, a Conn Smythe winner, a multi-time Vezina nominee and a second team all-star. He was small in stature, but he was very quick and aggressive. He will make it in the HHOF.

    Tom Barasso would be my pick for No. 2. One of the game's last true stand-up goalies. Not exactly the finest example of a human being, but an excellent goalie. Two Cups, could have won the Conn in 1992, a Vezina, several Vezina nominations and several all-star team selections. A very borderline HHOF case.

    I'll give Vernon the edge for two intangible factors: character and consistency. Barasso had a knack for being really good or really bad. You generally knew what you were going to get from Vernon.
    Another reason you couldn't always count on Barasso was health.

    The rest are much harder to judge. None of them belong in the HHOF. Here's my best effort:

    3. Curtis Joseph. I think this thread has been partially inspired by the Joseph for the HHOF thread in the NHL forum. I'll take Joseph, as he was the goalie most likely to put a team on his back. He almost single-handedly won four first round series by himself, and twice set the single-season saves record. His problem is he was a fader. If he gets in the HHOF, he'll be the first goalie since the introduction of the all-star teams in 1931 to make the HHOF without an all-star team birth or a Stanley Cup.

    4. Mike Richter. Much of his legacy is built on two performances: the 1994 Stanley Cup playoffs and the 1996 World Cup. And those are two great performances to base your career on. But much of the rest of his career was dotted with inconsistency. Was a Vezina finalist in his rookie year in 1991, and was Vezina worthy in 1992. Then he imploded in the 1992 playoffs and was horrible in 1993. He was terrible again in 1995. While you can't blame him for the Rangers failures post 1997, he didn't exactly play to the potential he'd shown earlier in his career.

    5. John Vanbiesbrouck. Plenty of success, but consistency wasn't always a strong suit, either. A first-team all-star and Vezina winner in 1986. A second-team all-star and Hart finalist in 1994. Vezina worthy in 1995 and 1996, too. You can never understimate his role for the Panthers in 1996. But from 1987 to 1993, it was a roller coaster. His best year, 1991-92, he was platooned with Richter, and like Richter, was a flop in the playoffs.

    6. Olaf Kolzig. Along with Sean Burke and Martin Brodeur, a trail blazer for the big goalies that are now commonplace in the NHL. When Kolzig was drafted, Burke was the biggest goalie in the league. Few were over 6'0". He's had moments of frustration in his career, but he's generally been one of the top 5-10 goalies in the league for nearly a decade. After Vernon and Joseph, the most consistent goalie on this list. And he has a Vezina. He also has a trip to the Cup final, but he, like the Caps franchise, has had his share of playoff frustration.

    7. Ron Hextall. His peak was as good as any goalie on this list. But he had a definite roller coaster career. He was marvellous in 1987. He was suspect in 1988. He was brilliant for the Flyers in Game 7 vs. Mario's Pens in 1989. He played his way out of Philly, Quebec and Long Island. He had stretches of sensational play in his second stint in Philly, but that tenure will be best remembered for the 1997 Cup final.
     
  3. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    That was actually Ken Wreggett stepping in for an injured Hextall in that game 7. Wreggett was brilliant after playing just 130 minutes over the last 4 months.


    I'd have to have Hextall above Kolzig, having much more playoff success. Joseph at 3 is too high. He was more consistent than the others, but his peak is the worst of the grouping.
     
  4. Bluesfan1981

    Bluesfan1981 Registered User

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    I agree with that order except I would certainly have Hextall over Kolzig. I think Barrasso Vernon is very close, a case can be made for Barrasso. I think they should both make the HoF.
     
  5. 1971

    1971 Registered User

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    1) Vernon- 2 rings and 2 finals losses. 4 trips to the final.
    2) Barrasso- 2 rings and a few conferance final losses.
    3) Hextall- no cups, conn smythe winner playing on losing team.
    4) Richter- 1 cup.
    5) Kolzig- career Cap, very dependable.
    6) Beezer- great career
    7) Joseph- Great regular season, playoff choke artist and choked in Olympics. Joseph for the hall of fame? Yeah right, while we're at it, lets put Felix Potvin there too.
     
  6. gr8haluschak

    gr8haluschak Registered User

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    Wow that is all I have to say. Can you tell me how he choked with the ONLY team he was really favored to win with - the Wings. Oh yes I forgot that it was his fault Luc began celabrating in game on against the Ducks before the made sure the puck was in the net. I also forgot that it was his fault that Detroit's famed offense no showed when it mattered, I mean he had GAAs of 1.39 and 2.08 and SPs of .939 and .917 but it was his fault that the Dead Wings only scored what 2 goals a game (and that is being very generous). Added to that it must have been his fault since the Wings were able to do so much better the following year without him right.
     
  7. 1971

    1971 Registered User

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    He wasn't just favored to win with the Wings, remember he also played in Toronto and always found a way to choke with the series on the line. He found a way to choke when he played in St. Louis when they had one of the best teams in the league and he choked in Edmonton. Then he's given the #1 starting job for Team Canada at the 02 Olympics and he gets bombed for 5 goals in his first and only game. It was his fault, because the Wings won the cup the next year with Hasek in net with basically the same team Joseph had. Joseph is a bum, great regular season goalie, if all you care about is making the playoffs.. get Joseph, you want to win the cup, get rid of him.
     
  8. mrhockey193195

    mrhockey193195 Registered User

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    1. Mike Richter (I know I'm gonna get killed for this one)- 1994 season, playoffs especially, were phenominal...he was as deserving of the Conn Smythe that year as Leetch. His 96 World Cup was outstanding, and he was named best goalie in the 02 olympics (people forget how amzingly he played, just months after returning from his second torn ACL in as many years). One poster said before that his post-97 years were inconsistent: I beg to differ, as his numbers were solid (until injuries hit him in 2001) and he was playing in front of a purely offensive team with minimal, if any defense. And the injuries were a huge factor- torn ACL in 2000, torn ACL in 2001, season ending concussion in 2002, and career ending concussion in the 03-04 season. True, at times he was inconsistent, but he was asked to face 35 shots a night on average during those years, and the wear and tear got to him.

    Another element of his game was his athleticism. In my opinion, he and Hasek were the most athletic and flexible goalies in recent history. In fact, I would argue that he made more highlight reel saves that any goalie in the modern era.

    As much as I loved Richter as a player and as a person, I would have to say no to a HOF induction.....if there was a Hall of Fame for players who worked hard, sacrificed their body for their team, gave 100% every night, never complained, and for players who were great people on and off the ice, in addition to being a great player overall, then Richter would be a first ballot inductee.

    2. Mike Vernon- He was never my favorite, and I didn't necessarily agree with his induction to the HOF (I felt that if he got in, you would have to admit everyone mentioned in this thread, which shouldn't happen), but there's no denying he was an excellent goalie. 2 cups, 1 Conn Smythe, clutch goaltending in big games (94 vs. VAN, 97 cup run with DET, etc.). His career didn't end gracefully, but then again, very few goalies have gone out on a high note, and all those that are being discussed in this thread (at least, all those who have already retired) also weren't able to go out on top.

    3. Tom Barasso- The Buffalo stage of his career was excellent, as were his first years in Pittsburgh. Two cups, 300+ wins, Vezina, Calder, clutch goaltending. However, I felt that after 93, he was a little too inconsistent. Injuries obviously attributed to that, but even before he was forced to spend a lot of time on the sidelines, his play declined. He could have been much better than he was in the early 90s (post cup wins). Again, I'd have to say no HOF...once again, if you inducted Tom, you'd be forced to induct players of similar importance and ability...namely Joseph, Richter, etc.

    From here, it becomes difficult...in fact, I think these following goalies were fairly equal in terms of success and dominance, so my rankings could be switched around and I would not mind at all.

    4. Curtis Joseph- Great goalie, put 100% in each game I saw, the only thing missing from his resume is playoff success...aside from 97, he never put a team on his shoulders in a playoff and led them to a cup/the finals. If he did that early in his career, I think the public outlook on his career would be far different, and he would be in the HOF. But as of now, I'd say no, b/c he was never a "dominant" goalie- he never dominated the league like Roy, Belfour, Brodeur, etc.

    5. Olaf Kolzig- His career has been very similar to Richter's, but only lacks the success on the big stage (aside from leading WSH to the 98 finals). He had some great years in his prime (not quite as good as Richter's, and he was also a late bloomer), but his numbers have declined recently. However, this is no indication that his play has declined. Watch the Capitals today, and you could make the argument that Kolzig is a top 5 goalie in the NHL right now. He's facing 40 shots a night, so naturally his GAA will be higher. I think he's one of the most underrated goalies of the generation, one of the most compassionate athletes on the generation (in terms of charity and other community services), but again, he was never the best goalie in the game, nor did he win a cup (yet), so I don't think he has much of a shot at the HOF.

    6. Ron Hextall- If he continued his excellent play from the late 80s during the 90s, he'd be a sure HOF'er, but he really was inconsistent during this past decade. He, unlike any other goalie in this list, was at one point arguably the best goalie in the league (87, 89), but he had a much worse career after those years than any other goalie in this list did during their worst seasons. His peak was the best peak, but his slumps were the worst slumps.

    7. John Vanbiesbrouck- Vezina winner, Cup finalist, but it was a bumpy road in between. He got booed out of Florida after becoming a hero for his efforts in 94, 95 and 96. His joined PHI when he was getting close to retirement, so his play dropped off quite significantly. However, I think his best years came with the Rangers in the 80's. His efforts in the 86 playoffs were outstanding, and one can argue that he was one of the main reasons that the rangers were not a last place team during that decade.
     
  9. gr8haluschak

    gr8haluschak Registered User

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    Wow keep grasping for straws, Do you know what you are talking about ? seriously can you tell me how in gods green earth did he choke in Edmonton and tell me how was St Louis EVER considered a cup contender when he was there (and unlike you I actually watched both teams) Finally How many years were the Leafs supose to win the cup - NONE, they always had the same knock on them - NO DEFENSE, umm seems to me that if you have such a MAJOR KNOCK on you like that you are in NO WAY shape or form even considerd to be a good team let alone a contender. As for the wings maybe you should get it through your skull that he did his job, unlike the rest of his team (In 2002 they averaged 3.35 GF per game while in the two years with Joseph scored an earth shattering 1.75 GF per game). Added to that in Joseph's seasons with the Wings he has better numbers in the playoffs than Hasek did, But yes i forgot it was his fault.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2006
  10. 1971

    1971 Registered User

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    Just to start...No one said anything about "supose to win" Thats not what being a Cup contender means. and the Blues were Stanley Cup contenders in 1990-91 when they finished with over 100 points in the standings. They were a Cup contender in the middle of the decade as well. The maple Leafs were contenders in the late 90's due to their two 100 point seasons. Joseph played on atleast 2 Stanley Cup contending teams in the early and mid 90's and then 2 or 3 more Cup contending teams in the late 90's. The Oilers are the only team that no one ever called a contender. The Wings were a Cup contending team. Make all the excuses you want for him. He chokes in big games and thats a fact. He couldnt get a good Leafs team into the final, he couldnt get a good Blues team into the final, he couldnt get a good Wings team past the 1st round. He did good in Edmonton, I give him that. I'm not a fan of Edmonton, Toronto, Detroit or St. Louis. I have no bone to pick with him, I just call it the way I see it. I was also very happy to see him bomb in the first game of the 2002 Olympics against Sweden(5 goals allowed) that just forced Pat Quinn to put the real deal in the net. Why Curtis Joseph was given the #1 job over Marty Brouder is beyound me to begin with. Out of all 7 of the goalies that guy listed, 6 of them have carried their team on their back into the Stanley Cup final. Joseph hasnt and he never will. Sorry. Just my opinion, you should just get over Cuja because your hero is just an everage goalie.
     
  11. NOTENOUGHBREWER

    NOTENOUGHBREWER Registered User

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    Can anyone tell me how to use ignore list? At least Snipermogilny and Chooch are funny. This one isnt even slightly.
     
  12. Bluesfan1981

    Bluesfan1981 Registered User

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    Kolzig ahead of Joseph. :biglaugh: And Joseph is far ahead of Felix Potvin, that's not a good comparison.
     
  13. gr8haluschak

    gr8haluschak Registered User

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    Wow is all I have to say, how about you just quit because you clearly have no clue what you are talking about especially after your new arguments. You sit there and talk how the Blues were a cup contendor in 90-91 can you answer me this who was the starting goalie at that time ? Oh yeah I forgot that that must have been Cujo since he played 30 games that year, and how do you blame him when in the 90-91 playoffs HE WAS NOT EVEN IN NET. How about you get some facts staright before you spout off your BS. Added to that you have not answered me the question - who is at fault when your team only scores less that 2 goals a game in the playoffs for the two years that he was in net when the year before they scored 3.4. Oh yeah it must have been cujos fault that the Dead Wings no showed in games 3 and 4 against the ducks and 5 and 6 against the Flames, seems to me it is pretty hard to win WHEN THE TEAM INFRONT doesn't score a goal. But then again it must be me.
     
  14. seventieslord

    seventieslord Student Of The Game

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    Great question, because they are all "second tier" all-time greats. They're actually all very close.

    1. Tom Barrasso - Two time cup winner, vezina winner, good long career, and was top 3 in GAA and sv% a few times.
    2. Curtis Joseph - Too many regular season wins, playoff wins and playoff SO to ignore. Great in the first two rounds of the playoffs. As a Leafs fan I can say that even when he gets beaten, he's usually the better goalie.
    3. Mike Richter - Cup winner, world cup winner, and was regarded as a top-6 or top-7 his whole career.
    4. Mike Vernon - 2 time Cup winner, cup finalist, vezina finalist, conn smythe on a stacked team, and pretty good when not on top of the league too.
    5. Olaf Kolzig - Highest career playoff save% of all-time. Has won a vezina and been to the finals.
    6. John Vanbiesbrouck. Like Richter, was a top-8 his whole career (almost). Never got that cup, but did win a vezina and get to the finals.
    7. Ron Hextall - a Vezina and a Smythe early on, but ordinary for most of the rest of his career.
     
  15. MiamiScreamingEagles

    MiamiScreamingEagles A Fistful of Dollars

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    Very good question. I'm opting out from ranking Hextall just because my opinion is clouded from the fact that I was a huge fan.

    1. Barrasso -- I think he is the cream of the crop.

    2. Richter -- The next three are very close, could go anyway.
    3. Cujo
    4. Vernon

    5. Kolzig -- Solid players but a notch down from the top 4.
    6. Beezer
     

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