Rank These Four Players

[Hockey Outsider]

I'll take Dave Lewis's word over some reporter that says he heard Bowman say it. Dave Lewis had been there for Lidstrom's entire career and for most of Yzerman's career.

Damn those reports, always accusing Bowman of saying things he never did! So now the reporter's a liar, too, putting words in Bowman's mouth? Is everyone who disagrees with you a liar?

Don't forget that Bowman never liked Yzerman anyways. Remember he tried to trade Yzerman when he first came here and now I wish he would've done that. It would've been better for Yzerman's career.

What _actually_ happened is that Bowman helped Yzerman evolve into a more complete player. I'd say it worked out pretty good for both Yzerman and the Red Wings franchise.

So you're admitting that Yzerman was the Red Wings best player in the 2002 playoffs? If not then you aren't on my side.

I said Yzerman was great during the 2002 playoffs.

That so called best defenseman didn't do anything in the first round.

OK. He didn't shut down Naslund, Bertuzzi and Morisson. He didn't score the goal that prevented the team from going down 3-0 to Vancouver. He didn't play 30 minutes per game. He didn't score a point per game.

First of all, Lidstrom didn't play like a Norris trophy winning nor conn smythe winning defenseman. It was Yzerman that played like the conn smythe winner and he got shafted big time.

Nothing new here.

1. Yes, Yzerman played like a Conn Smythe winner
2. No, Lidstrom did play like a Conn Smythe winner. I've already posted a lot of facts and evidence, which you've never addressed.
3. There can be more than one Conn Smythe calibre performance by two players on the same team!

Even the crowd at the Joe was stunned. Did you not hear the silence when Lidstrom was first announced as the winner?

Another outright lie. Watch this video. http://www.detroithockey.net/multimedia/196.php Listen carefully. You might hear the "silence", but it's mostly overwhelming by the crowd erupting in cheers.

Once again, the Red Wings didn't have anybody else. With Hasek in the net they could've stuck just about anybody back there and they would've been fine.

So the Stanley Cup winning team didn't need any defensemen?

I just completely disagree with it. Lidstrom wasn't the best player. At the time Yzerman was not expected to play again.

You disagree. No need to call Bowman a liar. Saying "I disagree with Bowman" is one thing. Saying "Bowman is lying, and lied only to appease the crowd, because he secretly believes that I'm right" is the height of dishonesty.

Apparently you watched a different game.

I'm starting to reach the same conclusion.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

We're going in circles now.

I never said Bowman was liar. Some players just need their ego stroked more than others.

This is all baseless speculation with no facts whatsoever.

I know what Bowman did. He took a great player and turned him into garbage. It might have worked out for the Red Wings, but it didn't for Yzerman.

Completely disagree with this. What do you think Yzerman would rather be: a 150-point offensive forward who can't bring his team to greatness (Marcel Dionne), or a forward who became one of the most complete players in NHL history, which allows his team to become a near-dynasty? I'm positive Yzerman would trade his offensive stats for the team success his two-way role allowed him to achieve. ANY player in NHL history would do the same.

I never said Lidstrom didn't score the goal, I just said it wasn't important. We don't win that game without Yzerman's goals either.

What is your definition of an important goal, then? The game-winning goal, that shatters the confidence of your opponents, while you're one period away from falling behind 3-0, in the playoffs, which turns out to be the turning point of the series, is not important?

Again: Detroit doesn't win without Yzerman. But they don't win without Lidstrom either.

I agree that a team can have more than one Conn Smythe caliber performance, but Lidstrom's wasn't one of them. I would say Fedorov, Hasek, and Hull also played like conn smythe winners.

No argument here, all of those players had great playoff runs.

Who's to say the applause wasn't added to that video. I watched the game on a different channel and I remember silence for a few seconds and then some applause.

OK, I'll admit it. I edited the video and added the sound of applause to prove my point. I also superimposed images of cheering fans, just to make it extra convincing.

Also, there's a sniper on the grassy knoll.

No, I never said Bowman is a liar. I have no idea what he believes. Only he knows for sure. Maybe he really thinks Lidstrom is the best player ever? I don't know.

You said Bowman was just saying what he said to appease fans. That sounds like lying to me. Anyway, the logical thing to do is to assume Bowman is honest and truthful (like he has been for more than 30 years!) and not make any assumptions about ulterior motives unless you have facts to prove otherwise.

Anyway, this is really getting ridiculous. Scotty Bowman is a liar, quotes from newspapers are made up, and videos are edited in some sort of vast Lidstrom conspiracy.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Hasek
Lidstrom
Yzerman
CHelios

Certainly not the order in which I like the players, but hasek and lidstrom were for periods the undisputed best at their positions. Yzerman and Chelios were among the best as well, but the other few were #1 for decent frames of time. Chelios got some Norris action, but I couldn't bear to put him ahead of Yzerman.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm done defending Yzerman because I'm wrong and I'm wasting my time. You can trash him all you like.

I never said a bad thing about Yzerman--never. Stop lying about me. I only said that Lidstrom was worthy of the Conn Smythe in 2002, and somehow you interpreted this as some sort of attack against you. I'm truly sorry that this offends you.

I've had a change in opinion after the discussion with Hockey Outsider. I was wrong about everything as usual.

I'm pretty confused with your previous post. It's almost like if somebody disagrees with you about anything (we're disagreeing about LIDSTROM, not Yzerman), then you'll say degrading things about Yzerman in order to get posters here to stroke your ego and tell you how good your favorite player is.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Everything you posted in this thread were bad things about Yzerman. I don't care anymore. Like I said, go ahead and say whatever junk you want about Yzerman. I'm through defending the guy and I'm no longer a fan of his.

I'n no genius, but I don't think the guy said anything bad about Yzerman. Stevie-Y is one of the true greats and beloved throughout the world of hockey fans. Just because somebody doesn't think he's the greatest doesn't mean they don't like him or are saying 'bad things' about him.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

Beloved? You've got to be kidding me. He's got to be one of the most hated players that I've ever seen.

 

[nik jr]

do not argue with SGY19.

you will regret it.

especially if yzerman is the topic, and he always is with SGY19.

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Actually it's probably an insult to the other guys to even have Yzerman on the list. Let's face it, Yzerman's career was a joke compared to these guys. His numbers were terrible and he just was never as dominate as any of these three. Yzerman is more in the non-HOF group with Dino Cicarelli. If Yzerman never injured his knee and he didn't sacrifice his stats for the good of the team then he would be a HOF great, but he's just not and he never will be. BTW just because these guys are ranked higher in their specific position, doesn't necessarily mean that they are the better player. There are far fewer defenseman and goaltenders than there are forwards.

WHY must you post such absurd comments??

 

[Bluesfan1981]

I'm going to rank them again with everything that I've learned.

1. Lidstrom: He's been the Red Wings best player since about 1995. He's also the second greatest Red Wing of all-time behind only Howe.

Second greatest? Ever heard of Terry Sawchuk?

Lidstrom is also the Red Wings best captain in the past 25 years or so.

How many games has he been captain? 10?

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

SGY19 in all honesty did Yzerman, Jeff Brown your wife or something because you first post that you hate the guy and that he sucks, but then you say he wasn't all that bad and that he was better than Lidstrom in 2002 - and that the red wings would have been down 3-0 against Vancouver without Yzerman. You then say that he didn't play a big role in any of the Stanley Cup victories.

It was Yzerman that played like the conn smythe winner and he got shafted big time.

Did not play a big role in any of the stanley cup wins.

Do you have ODD?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Lidstrom deserved that Conn Smythe in 2002, especially for his work in the final two rounds. Yzerman was the team MVP in the first round, but Lidstrom was the best player in the conference final and league final. Problem was you had so many big contributors to Detroit in 2002. Yzerman was great. Fedorov was great. Hasek set a shutout record. Chelios was great. Shanahan and Hull scored some big goals. Larionov had that OT winner in Game 3 versus Carolina. Lidstrom was the MVP, but he never really put that team on his back at any point. And it's not really his style.

Nalyd, you're probably old enough to remember Chris Chelios' performance with Chicago in 1995 versus Vancouver. He dominated every aspect of the game in a way that Lidstrom never could.

Oh, I'm not doubting Chelios in anyway. (Although I still swear Chicago's winning goal in, game 6, I think, the guy had his foot in the crease.)

But Chicago needed Chelios to be Mr. Everything. Detroit never required that of Lidstrom. And I believe that Lidstrom could have done it. He's led the offence in the post season. scored clutch goals. He's shut down some of the best and most dangerous forwards in the game. And, more often than not, is the player on either side of the ice that controls the tempo of the game.

The difference is minimal either way, but I don't think Chelios could dominate in way Lidstrom couldn't, he just did it in ways Lidstrom was never asked to do.

The only edge Chelios has is physical play, and, IMO, that's somewhat overrated.

 

[kruezer]

I am with you on Yzerman being the best leader since Clarke or maybe Espo GBC, I'd take him over Messier for leadership in a second personally.

Anyway, this is a very, very tough call. I would take Hasek first as well, just an outstanding player and probably the defining player of his generation. After that it is really hard, I am a huge fan of skilled, two way pivots with great leadership skills, and Yzerman definetaly fits that bill, so I think I would take him next, then its a pick'em situation between Lidstrom and Chelios right now I think, though Nik might win me over eventually and bump himself ahead of Yzerman. Man its hard to rank Chelios and possible last out of all of them though.

 

[Sens Rule]

Dominik Hasek
Chris Chelios
Nicklas Lidstrom
Steve Yzerman

All of these players were for prolonged periods among the best players in the World. Hasek was THE DEFINITVE best player in the world for 4 or 5 years. While Chelios and Lidstrom have merits but I have to take Yzerman at number 2. I'll take Chelios at number 3 but Lidstrom could pass both Yzerman and Chelios if he keeps playing at a high level into his 40's.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I came back just to apologize for my ridiculous posts on Monday. I insulted and underrated Lidstrom. I was also completely wrong about everything. I now realize I was living in a dream world. I've accepted reality. I will try one last time before I leave to rank these players.

1. Lidstrom: I put him #1 because of his impact on his team and also because he's been the best defenseman in the league for such a long time. So far he has 4 norris trophies, 3 stanley cups, 1 conn smythe, a gold medal, and a bunch of post season all-star selections. He is also the reason for the Red Wings success. Without Lidstrom the Red Wings wouldn't have won any of their recent Stanley Cups. He's been the best every single season he's been on the team except for his 1st couple seasons in the NHL. He is the Gordie Howe or Mario Lemieux of the modern Red Wings. Lidstrom is also one of the top 5 captains of all-time. It is only fitting to have the player that Scotty Bowman says is the best player he's ever coached and also the perfect player as #1.

2. Hasek: He's one of the greatest goaltenders of all-time. His accomplishments speak for themselves.

3. Chelios: He's one of the greatest defenseman of all-time. At 45 years of age he is still playing at an elite level. He has 3 norris trophies. He was also one of the greatest captains of all-time.

This shtick has gotten REALLY old, REALLY fast. I hope you don't think people are going to keep getting riled up by it.

 

[Epsilon]

The weirdest thing about SGY19's gimmick is that it was never clear if he was trying to be an Yzerman fanboy troll or an anti-Yzerman troll.

 

[jiggs 10]

In the "choose one future Hall of Famer..." thread on the main board, Kira noted that it's hard to pick one for the Detroit Red Wings because Hasek, Lidstrom, and Chelios would are all obvious locks to make the HoF and there is little to separate the three of them. Thinking about this myself, I also find that these three players are very comparable in terms of all-time greatness. Since he just retired, I figured I'd also throw Yzerman's name into the mix.

So the question is, rank the following four players:

Dominik Hasek
Chris Chelios
Nicklas Lidstrom
Steve Yzerman

One thing: you are ranking these players based on their place among the greatest hockey players of all-time, not specifically their contributions to the Red Wings.

Yzerman
Lidstrom
Chelios
Hasek

Hasek may be the 5th or 6th best goalie of all time, but Lidstrom is in the top 5 defensemen ever, as is Chelios. Yzerman is just quite simply a god.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Yzerman
Lidstrom
Chelios
Hasek

Hasek may be the 5th or 6th best goalie of all time, but Lidstrom is in the top 5 defensemen ever, as is Chelios. Yzerman is just quite simply a god.

Just out of curiousity, if Lidstrom and Chelios are top 5 d-men, who of Orr, Shore, Harvey, Bourque and Potvin gets bumped?

I thought I was the only one who viewed Lidstrom and Bourque as roughly equal...

 

[Crazyhorse]

Hasek
Lidström
Yzerman
Chelios

SGY, a troll?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Lidström - Everything you would ever want in a player on and off the ice.
Yzerman - Simply one of the best one on one players in his prime and one of the greatest on ice leaders ever. Class player.
Hasek - His only Cup came when he joined the other 3 right?
Chelios - Only his offensive game lowers him in my eyes.

 

[nik jr]

The weirdest thing about SGY19's gimmick is that it was never clear if he was trying to be an Yzerman fanboy troll or an anti-Yzerman troll.

i think anti-yzerman trolling is fake, to pretend that yzerman isn't respected.

 

[Dolemite]

Yzerman
Lidstrom
Chelios
Hasek

I Second that ranking.

 

[Epsilon]

I am not a troll. Yes, Yzerman used to be my favorite player. In fact he's the reason I started watching hockey. I am no longer a fan of his. I know I've gone back and forth on this, but now I know for sure. I will not change my mind. I've recently realized that I was wrong about everything about Yzerman. I badly overrated him and I wanted him to be this great Red Wing player that he just wasn't. I now realize that the great Red Wing player I wanted him to be is Nick Lidstrom. Everything that I wanted to be true about Yzerman was wrong and it is really true about Lidstrom. My favorite player is Lidstrom.

As for respect, I now realize that is something that is earned.

You really need to just accept the fact that some people think Lidstrom is a better player than Yzerman. It's hardly a consensus and there are good arguments to be made either way. I've enjoyed reading a lot of the responses in this thread (GBC's was well-written and thought-out, as usual) and you've done your best to completely derail it (although thankfully most of the worst posts are gone).

 

[tripledekehockey]

1 -- hasek
2 -- yzerman
3 -- lidstrom
4 -- chelios

 

[octopi]

The weirdest thing about SGY19's gimmick is that it was never clear if he was trying to be an Yzerman fanboy troll or an anti-Yzerman troll.

Both, I think. More of the troll, tho.

His basic schtick is Stevie isn't good but doesn't get respected, and did he mention yet that Stevie should have been a fourth liner, or something like that....


Somewhere, there is a exploding population of Billy goats missing a bridge troll.

Anywho, back to the topic at hand, I guess realistically its

Hasek(6? Veznias, 2 Harts)
Yzerman
Lidstrom
Chelios

 

[Fishy McScales]

I honestly have never seen a touchier poster locked in flat-out-trolling mode than you, SGY19. Cut the melodrama and just accept the fact that not all people think Lidström is an average defenseman and that Yzerman single-handedly led the Wings to their cups. I loved Stevie Y as a hockey player just as much as I think Nick Lidström is one of the great defensemen in hockey. Why does the world have to be so black and white? That act you're putting on right about now playing some kind of victim is some of the most disturbingly pathetic stuff I've ever seen on a forum. No offense.