Rank the following Dmen:

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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He is quite a bit behind those two, especially Chelios, who IMO is easily Top 10 all-time defensively. Stevens has to be discounted a bit for only being elite defensively in the second half of his career, but is still way ahead of Chara. Chara's playoff this year has nothing on some of Steven's

I simply disagree. Chara might look slow and awkward on the aesthetic level, but he snuffs out offense in a way that is positively game-changing.

Not saying he's better than either of the guys mentioned above, but IMO those guys were considerably better with the puck and that should factor into the conversation as puck possession always makes your defense better.
 

Hawkey Town 18

Registered User
Jun 29, 2009
8,260
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Chicago, IL
I simply disagree. Chara might look slow and awkward on the aesthetic level, but he snuffs out offense in a way that is positively game-changing.

Not saying he's better than either of the guys mentioned above, but IMO those guys were considerably better with the puck and that should factor into the conversation as puck possession always makes your defense better.

You aren't even thinking about longevity if you think he's close to Chelios in an all-time sense. Chelios was one of the top defensive defenseman getting Norris consideration early in his career and did it into his 40's. It took Chara a while to get into the top tier of defensive defensemen. Even if you think Chara eventually reached the same level Chelios did in terms of shutdown ability (which I don't at all), Chelios did it for twice as long.
 

EagleBelfour

Registered User
Jun 7, 2005
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ehsl.proboards32.com
Chara is definitely not a Top-3 defensive defenceman of All-Time, and also not close to Top-5 post O-6, but some of you are overly harsh on him. Obviously, Chara main strength is countering big and strong forwards over the speedy one. He probably wouldn't sniff a Top-50 list if he only played against players like Yvan Cournoyer or Pavel Bure, but he is very high on my list if I want someone to stop a Eric Lindros, Cy Denneny or even the very best like Gordie Howe. Overall, he is a polarizing figure defensively, because we all saw the Martin St-Louis' and Brian Gionta's getting past him a couple of times, but again, if we take out the speediest skater of the league, Chara is extremely difficult to beat in almost any defensive situation. Not to nitpick on 70's list, but listing guys like Jack Marshall, Rod Seiling and Al Arbour is very off. Even contemporary like Adam Foote and Mattias Normstrom: we all saw them extensively, and for me I would take a full season of Chara defensively over them in a breeze. Actually, browsing through 70's list, Emile Bouchard might be the best comparative for Zdeno Chara.

EDIT:

As far as the original poster question, I would rank them this way:

Al MacInnis

Scott Stevens
Chris Pronger

Brian Leetch

Zdeno Chara
Scott Niedermayer
 
Last edited:

nik jr

Registered User
Sep 25, 2005
10,798
7
Having followed them both closely for several years (ie watched >80% of their games, regular season and playoffs) I will say, you can't very easily chalk up Chara's performance to Thomas or vice versa. Thomas has been absolutely brilliant, but he's enabled by Chara and the rest of the Bruins defense. Likewise, Chara has been incredible in his shutdown roles largely because he knows Thomas will stop the shot upwards of 95% of the time, so Chara can focus on controlling the passing lanes and rebounds.

Those two players are tied together very closely, but their results kinda speak for themselves. Most other great defensive-defensemen have had this same argument around them (ie, Stevens-Brodeur, Chelios-Roy/Belfour) but at the end of the day their legacy is results-driven.
i agree with this, and it is one of the reasons i am not entirely as impressed with thomas as his stats would indicate. his d-men allow him to be very aggressive on shooters. on a weak defensive team, i think we would see many more goals like burrow's OT goal or lapierre's goal in game 5.

i agree with JohnnyD that chelios and stevens were superior defenders.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,202
7,360
Regina, SK
Chara is definitely not a Top-3 defensive defenceman of All-Time, and also not close to Top-5 post O-6, but some of you are overly harsh on him. Obviously, Chara main strength is countering big and strong forwards over the speedy one. He probably wouldn't sniff a Top-50 list if he only played against players like Yvan Cournoyer or Pavel Bure, but he is very high on my list if I want someone to stop a Eric Lindros, Cy Denneny or even the very best like Gordie Howe. Overall, he is a polarizing figure defensively, because we all saw the Martin St-Louis' and Brian Gionta's getting past him a couple of times, but again, if we take out the speediest skater of the league, Chara is extremely difficult to beat in almost any defensive situation. Not to nitpick on 70's list, but listing guys like Jack Marshall, Rod Seiling and Al Arbour is very off. Even contemporary like Adam Foote and Mattias Normstrom: we all saw them extensively, and for me I would take a full season of Chara defensively over them in a breeze. Actually, browsing through 70's list, Emile Bouchard might be the best comparative for Zdeno Chara.

EDIT:

As far as the original poster question, I would rank them this way:

Al MacInnis

Scott Stevens
Chris Pronger

Brian Leetch

Zdeno Chara
Scott Niedermayer

Strictly defensively, Arbour is better, the guy was 5th in norris voting (4th without Orr) with only 8 points all season. Regarding arbour, seiling and norstrom, you are confusing "defensively" and "overall".
 

Reds4Life

Registered User
Dec 24, 2007
3,906
235
strictly defensively:

Harvey Pulford
Jack Marshall
Eddie Gerard
Eddie Shore
Ching Johnson
Lionel Conacher
Hap Day
Sylvio Mantha
Art Coulter
Earl Seibert
Jack Stewart
Butch Bouchard
Doug Harvey
Bill Quackenbush
Jim Thomson
Fern Flaman
Jacques Laperriere
Al Arbour
Tim Horton
Bobby Orr
Rod Seiling
Denis Potvin
Larry Robinson
Serge Savard
Bill White
Dave Burrows
Bill Hajt
Ray Bourque
Rod Langway
Mike Ramsey
Ken Morrow
Chris Chelios
Scott Stevens
Nicklas Lidstrom
Adam Foote
Mattias Norstrom
Derian Hatcher
Chris Pronger

these are ranked mostly chronologically, but if I were to attempt to place them in defensive order I think I could place Chara somewhere in the mix in the bottom-10 - but the list is 39 names long. plus a name I threw in to see if anyone would notice

I would also add Valeri Vasiliev, Slava Fetisov and Alexei Kasatanov (at the very least; and perhaps Frantisek Pospisil)
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
Strictly defensively, Arbour is better, the guy was 5th in norris voting (4th without Orr) with only 8 points all season. Regarding arbour, seiling and norstrom, you are confusing "defensively" and "overall".

And Chara actually won the Norris with an unusually low point total. Even if Arbour peaked at a defensive level close to Chara that one year, he only had a few good seasons, vs Chara who has been in the conversation for best defensive defenseman with Lidstrom and Pronger for several seasons now, plus was probably the best defensive defenseman in the 03-04 regular season
 

EagleBelfour

Registered User
Jun 7, 2005
7,467
62
ehsl.proboards32.com
Strictly defensively, Arbour is better, the guy was 5th in norris voting (4th without Orr) with only 8 points all season. Regarding arbour, seiling and norstrom, you are confusing "defensively" and "overall".

I'm not confusing ''defensively'' and ''overall'' in my argumentation. Finishing 5th one season with a handful of votes because of your defensive prowess is not better than someone winning a Norris trophy mostly due to his shutdown abilities. If you want to argue that Arbour had a single season where he was better defensively than Chara, I'm all ear, but considering their whole career Arbour definitely shouldn't be the discussion.

EDIT: Pretty much what TDMM wrote one post over me.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
29,045
16,737
Chara is definitely not a Top-3 defensive defenceman of All-Time, and also not close to Top-5 post O-6, but some of you are overly harsh on him. Obviously, Chara main strength is countering big and strong forwards over the speedy one. He probably wouldn't sniff a Top-50 list if he only played against players like Yvan Cournoyer or Pavel Bure, but he is very high on my list if I want someone to stop a Eric Lindros, Cy Denneny or even the very best like Gordie Howe. Overall, he is a polarizing figure defensively, because we all saw the Martin St-Louis' and Brian Gionta's getting past him a couple of times, but again, if we take out the speediest skater of the league, Chara is extremely difficult to beat in almost any defensive situation.

this is interesting. i don't have chara on the shortlist of greatest defensive defenseman of all time, and he's one of the last post-expansion norris winners i'd want if i was facing pavel bure. but at the same time there are few guys i would rather have if i was facing mario lemieux, who was arguably the most devastating individual offensive force of all time.

we saw in the finals how the sedins made a fool out of him in game one. it was remarkable. they both came at him to exploit his clumsiness. i'm not going to do the sequence justice, but the puck goes into the corner and daniel and chara are battling. daniel backs into him, like a basketball player boxing out for a rebound, and lets the puck glide into chara's skates. then, when chara fumbles, daniel kicks the puck to henrik, daniel spins off and fakes like it's going back to him so chara does a 360, turning to henrik then immediately around again to daniel. meanwhile, the puck goes around the boards to the point. it was bieksa, i think.

but this is what really surprised me about chara, who i'd obviously seen play many times before, but never in seven consecutive games. vancouver fans were sure that this big clumsy oaf was the guy we'd see all series. by game three, chara had figured them out and put them completely on lockdown. he'd play them close and play the body instead of the puck, he figured out how they pass to each other and used his enormous reach to break up so many plays between them and burrows.

that's the way you'd have to play mario too. he obviously had that great playmaking ability, and you'd have to play him tight and overpower him, which chara could do. his biggest advantage over you is his reach, which makes it very difficult to play him tight. not so against chara, who has five inches on him. open ice, he could still burn you, but even then i think chara's reach negates lemieux's natural advantages to a great degree than almost any other defenseman ever.
 

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