OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: Sell the Team

[Brandinho]

That's really underwhelming if that's what we're asking for. If the Twins offered that, I'd be hesitant, but knowing that's what Huntington considers a desirable package is somewhat unnerving.

Granite is Robbie Grossman, Gordon is interesting if you really like his brother and don't mind having a less toolsy version of Dee and Jay has great stuff, but a history of injuries and probably projects as a reliever at this point.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

That's really underwhelming if that's what we're asking for. If the Twins offered that, I'd be hesitant, but knowing that's what Huntington considers a desirable package is somewhat unnerving.

Granite is Robbie Grossman, Gordon is interesting if you really like his brother and don't mind having a less toolsy version of Dee and Jay has great stuff, but a history of injuries and probably projects as a reliever at this point.

Agreed you would really have to like Granite for that to be interesting and im meh on Granite. He has prototypical lead off qualities and can play a great CF kinda of Jerrod Dyson like value.

And Jay is a reliever at this point because of injuries.

I think the Yankees line up the best as they have a major league ready 3b prospect in Andujar amd maybe a blocked guy like Frazier or an arm and saome salary come back (Headley?) I really like Andujar.

 

[Winger for Hire]

File this under things I had no idea about...

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

File this under things I had no idea about...

MArlins last year...

Starting OF - had fWAR of 16.2
Every other PA - 9.7

 

[Brandinho]

Agreed you would really have to like Granite for that to be interesting and im meh on Granite. He has prototypical lead off qualities and can play a great CF kinda of Jerrod Dyson like value.

And Jay is a reliever at this point because of injuries.

I think the Yankees line up the best as they have a major league ready 3b prospect in Andujar amd maybe a blocked guy like Frazier or an arm and saome salary come back (Headley?) I really like Andujar.

Agreed, Andujar is intriguing. He has some defensive question marks and sounds a bit like Alvarez (great arm, poor footwork and instincts), but he's much more athletic and wouldn't be stuck at first if he did have to move off of third. He's definitely somebody I'd be interested in and the Yankees have a fair few other prospects who we could use as well. It really seems like the best fit for a trade partner.

 

[TNT87]

A four year deal for a guy who has missed about 100 games the past two seasons and has played in over 150 once in the past six years. Good luck with the Neil.

 

[cookthebooks]

man neil walker getting 4 years what

 

[Winger for Hire]

Well, Jake the Steroid is asking for $200m+, so....

In other news, the Cards dealt for Ozuna. I guess we can officially shut the Pirates window now? Not that there was much of an opening, but I think it's shut and locked.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So what are the Pirates exactly doing at this point? Are they blowing it up and rebuilding again? I truly have no idea what to think they're doing.

 

[Winger for Hire]

So what are the Pirates exactly doing at this point? Are they blowing it up and rebuilding again? I truly have no idea what to think they're doing.

They're going to straddle the fence, hoping for everyone to exceed expectations while not having to "give up" on any of their prized (and increasingly thin, in terms of loudness) prospects.

This is just a terrible time for the team to be pulling this kind of crap. The TV deal is up in 2019-ish and if they continue to sit on their hands, they're going to be left with another paltry TV contract that will "force" them to continue their MLB version of couponing.

Wouldn't it make more sense to push some chips into the middle for the next two seasons to pump up any negotiating power they'll have against AT&T? I mean if they got "crazy" and decided to trade for Josh Donaldson and sign Darvish, wouldn't the attendance spike basically pay for those contracts? Then on top of that you can swing your might during the TV talks and walk away with something, while not in the upper part of the league, around market value for a TV deal, hopefully, just before the TV bubble pops.

The Twins, who's window opened up, are looking to be one of the favs to sign Darvish. Let that sink in. The Twins, perpetually low spending and budget conscious, are looking to make a splash to supplement their homegrown core and make a serious run.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Seems like something that should have been decided in, like, October

 

[TNT87]

Seems like something that should have been decided in, like, October

You can't make this stuff up. "Best management team in baseball".

 

[Brandinho]

We took a couple of interesting pitchers in the Rule 5 draft. Well, technically, we took two and traded some of our international bonus pool for another, but Nick Burdi definitely has a chance to be a late inning reliever if he can overcome the health issues he's had. Here's Burdi's writeup from fangraphs last year:

16. Nick Burdi, RHP
Video
Drafted: 2nd Round, 2014 from Louisville

Age	24	Height	6’5	Weight	215	Bat/Throw	R/R

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Tool Grades (Present/Future)

Fastball	Slider	Command
70/80	60/70	30/40

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Relevant/Interesting Metrics
None. Threw just three innings due to injury.
Scouting Report
Burdi has closer stuff. He’ll touch 101 and flash a 70-grade slider. He dominated advanced hitters (he makes quick work of Yadiel Rivera, Jurickson Profarand Gary Sanchez in the linked video) in the 2015 Arizona Fall League and looked certain to make his big-league debut the next year but proceeded to spend almost all of 2016 on the disabled list. Burdi dealt with forearm soreness during spring training and the Twins throttled down his throwing program for a few weeks. Burdi began throwing again and pitched three innings for Double-A Chattanooga before going back on the DL for the rest of the year. Scouts have long been concerned about the max-effort nature of Burdi’s delivery, as well as some of the mechanical inconsistencies that, in concert with one another, make it hard for Burdi to locate. Of all the relief prospects in the system (and there are a lot) Burdi has the highest ceiling. But the command and injury risks loom large right now.

 

[Winger for Hire]

It's looking like a Cole to NYY deal is inching closer and closer.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Well, I thoroughly lost my password and had to create a new account. I pretty much concur with the consensus here - NH obviously does not have a plan, and while his hands are tied in a couple of ways, it's not enough of an excuse.

In my opinion we should absolutely, 100% be trading Cole, especially if his market is high. The whole situation is a clusterf***, so I'd say just trade Cole for what you can get. The ideal return in my eyes would be Frazier and one of Adams or Sheffield. Andujar is appealing as well, and makes for a more obvious fit if it's him plus one of the pitchers, but I don't think it's too pessimistic on our own players to say that Frazier would become the second best OF, assuming Cutch is gone. There are too many questions around Meadows and Polanco to just rely on them.

I don't expect Cole to continue having massive HR problems (though in the Yankees stadium...), but I also don't expect him to fully rebound his value. So getting two excellent pieces for him as the start of either of full-going rebuild, or more likely, a partial rebuild and a partial re-tooling, makes the most sense to me. We are simply not good enough to compete in 2018, barring some really unforseen things happening. If we do end up competing, the substance of the core is still under team control for longer. The outliers, who are obviously also still part of this substance, are Cole and Cutch, as well as Harrison to some extent.

I like the idea of trying for Panik from the Giants, even though their prospects are a hot mess. I love Cutch, but there's no rational option that involves him staying here past the trade deadline. My work-in-progress approach is trade Cole now, then explore the situation for both Cutch and Harrison: if we get Frazier, be more aggressive in Cutch trade talks, and if not, be willing to start the season with him. Trading Cole weirdly opens up a more interesting situation with the pitching, since even though it will not be good on paper or in the field, it gives some more time during the season to see who among Kuhl, Williams, Glasnow, etc., might claim a more permanent spot.

Eventually, maybe you end up with this by later in the season:

Marte CF
Panik 2B
Frazier LF
Bell 1B
Polanco RF
Harrison 3B
Mercer SS
Cervelli C

Taillon, Sheffield, Nova, Williams, Kuhl

The ordering is just to get them out there. Depending on what happens with the pitching, you have Keller likely knocking on the door, Glasnow presumably either having a role or being a bust, and maybe a dark horse, plus whatever happens with the latter two (maybe Glasnow or somebody else claims one of those spots, revert to bullpen for the other, etc). If numerous young pitchers are emerging, then maybe Nova brings back something of value at the deadline as well, and so on.

I don't really see another approach- we have to try and bring in some more controllable options, and hope that as more time passes, the core re-solidifies again with some new blood. Right now it seems like we're just going to continue waiting and seeing, but since we have to do that no matter what with a whole slew of players--Polanco, Glasnow, Williams/Kuhl/Brault, Meadows, Harrison--we might as well play the few cards we have in Cole and Cutch. The only "retool without trade" option is something like trying to sign Darvish and/or Frazier, which is more obviously not happening.

 

[TNT87]

NH better not screw this up. He needs to get a major haul with legit prospects.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I'm genuinely not confident enough that he'll even make the move to re-build/re-tool, let alone extract a good haul. The Yankees are the most obvious match because they have a clear mandate to win immediately, and a whole bunch of good prospects.

Apparently Cutch wants a 5 year, 110 million dollar extension. There's no way it's happening, but it isn't crazy money if you think his dip was more of an anomaly. I don't think it was, but I don't think he'll collapse either... but for years 31-35, it's too much money. It would certainly make things more interesting to both commit to Cutch and trade Cole for value, but then it makes Frazier not very valuable in a deal, and eventually would lead to a trade of Meadows or Polanco.

I'm still pretty high on Meadows, but I don't think he can be factored into any decision-making right now. They need to make a decision and pursue a path, and the obvious first move is maxing out on Cole's value. Chris Archer is controllable for longer, but maybe that means Tampa really insists on a huge haul. If you are the Pirates and can get two of the top prospects in the system, you probably just go for it for two years of Cole. The question is whether Tampa would also accept a similar package, in which case I think Archer is a better acquisition, although he has his question marks as well. I wonder if the possible hold up is around Tampa asking for Torres, and the Pirates unsure if they want Frazier as a centerpiece.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This is a good sign, IMO. I haven't seen too many national reporters pick up on this, but I haven't paid too close attention. Frazier is going to be a very good player and he will contribute immediately. The slight downside is that it instantly crowds the outfield, and means Cutch will have to be shopped even more aggressively. But Cutch's market is likely pretty good, with the overall season he put together, and the fact that if you are a team like the Giants, you see the Dodgers, Astros, and Yankees out there and know what needs to be done. Panik is somewhat expendable for them and would give us a young, controllable player at a position of relative need. Another lefty bat would be a good compliment to a top of the order which would feature Marte, Bell, and Frazier as a core.

 

[cookthebooks]

why they trust nh to do a rebuild is beyond me, so not a lot of faith tbe really do one

 

[Brandinho]

We're going to lose for a long time if Clint Frazier is considered part of our "core". His power will play extremely well at PNC, but I'm increasingly skeptical about other things. I'd take him in the trade, but not as the headliner.

 

[Cassano]

We're going to lose for a long time if Clint Frazier is considered part of our "core". His power will play extremely well at PNC, but I'm increasingly skeptical about other things. I'd take him in the trade, but not as the headliner.

As a Yankees fan, I'm curious as to why. He was on the trajectory to be our long term LFer before the Stanton trade.

 

[Brandinho]

As a Yankees fan, I'm curious as to why. He was on the trajectory to be our long term LFer before the Stanton trade.

I don't think he has the upside to justify being the headliner in a package for Cole. I'm under no illusions about Cole either, he isn't quite what he was billed as, but at least the potential is there for him to be an ace and the fact that he's already done it is a big point in his favor. Frazier looks like he has the potential to be an average starter, but I don't see how anybody could honestly project him as more than that. You watch Frazier and his absurd bat speed jumps out right away, but I think that serves to distract from the other mechanical flaws that he has. He has significant issues with both his feet and hands, his frame is maxed out and he's a bit like a cornerback who posts a great 40 time at the combine, but can't show it in game. Frazier is just one of those guys who I've soured on a bit the more I've watched him play. It's obvious that you guys want to move him and he's definitely not the worst we could do, but I'd really hope that there are other significant assets in the deal if we do trade for him. If it's Frazier and a couple of fringe prospects, it's not enough.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

I have only seen Frazier a handful of times, so I'm willing to buy that. I still like him as an impact bat a bit more than Andujar, and for me it helps that Frazier has shown some ability to hit at the MLB level, although the mechanical points are red flags.

I think one of Frazier/Andujar and one of Adams/Sheffield would be a fine return for Cole. I'm really down on him, and I do not think he will fare well in New York or that stadium. But I don't think NH should be swapping him for one good prospect and some fringe guys. Two quality, basically MLB-ready pieces at least does something in terms of generating some reason for optimism in the near future. That's all my "core" talk was really about, even if I remain higher on Frazier with less eye-testing. Neither Sheffield nor Adams are perfect pieces, but I like Sheffield a decent bit.

If talks have advanced somewhat, it seems like a good guess that the sticking point is either about getting two of the top set, or perhaps there is some skepticism about Frazier at the top of the deal, given the slightly crowded OF we would have. But I have to imagine that if two of them were on the table, the deal would already be done.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Yanks just signed Sabathia, but I doubt that takes them out of the running for Cole. Heyman provided a few updates just a bit ago:



Another good sign, even if Torres is almost definitely untouchable. Getting both Frazier and Andujar would be an interesting move... I prefer at least one of the arms, just for the sake of odds, because a rotation later this year or early next of Taillon, Keller, Sheffield/Adams is at least a good start, but getting two batters who both project as above average starters wouldn't be the worst move.

Cutch's market is really hard to predict, and I tend to think J Hay won't really have a market in the winter, so it's better to just hope he tears it up and is a sought after piece at the deadline. There are too many IFs available on the market still and Harrison's value is low. Any trade would just be to dump salary.

For Cutch, I'd guess things might not move until Martinez signs somewhere. I do like the Giants and Panik idea, but it'd be nice to try and get an even younger guy in the mold of one of the prospects we are discussing with the Yankees. I'm just not sure what team who would want Cutch also has that kind of situation to deal from. Panik and some middling prospects would seem like an underwhelming return, but at least he's going to give you solid value at that position for 2-3 seasons.

 

[Brandinho]

Never ever getting Torres, but you have to start by asking for him. It's just poor negotiating not to.

Hopefully that means NH actually will be firm on getting a good package and it's not just an obligatory bluff before he caves and accepts a weak package.

We've typically done well when trading with the Yanks, so I'm hopeful.