OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: The Condemned of Altoona

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JimmyTwoTimes

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The boys are really taking their frustrations out on the Cards tonight.

Need it for the rest of the series. And the 4game one after the Cubs


Weve had no problems.with those teams so far.

Still say we should be 31-19 right now but as long as they go on a big win streak to make up for it..
 

DJ Spinoza

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What a great game to work out a lot of the bad feeling that had been building up in the last week. Still really early to say anything like this, but it seems like we have the Cardinals number a little bit. Gant was really cruising and in total control, and then Musgrove snuck a single in, and we quickly snuck 3 runs in through the open window.

I think Hurdle was a little aggressive in pulling Musgrove, and it didn't work perfectly in terms of the big strike, but at the same time, I see the rationale behind just calling it a day with 7 pretty much perfect innings. He did get hit around a bit in one or two rehab starts, and anyways, both Feliz and Vazquez are money. It's a topic for another day, but there's part of me that's a little skeptical that some of this stuff around Musgrove was a bit of a ploy to keep his innings a little more restricted and give him ample time to recover from the World Series.

Most important part in this game was seeing Cervelli continue to hit the ball for power. Any time he seems to have a hand injury it's a huge cause for concern. I don't even think it's a little bit debatable that he's the MVP on this team right now.

I'm curious what will happen with Marte. If he's healthy, obviously you want him available, but Meadows is on such a tear that there's no point in rushing him even a little bit. Maybe Polanco will come down with a phantom injury, but I'd just as soon give Marte some more days and keep riding this out.

Tomorrow should be another solid pitching matchup. We got to Flaherty in his game against us last month, but he's been very good since then, and in terms of stuff, may even be the best guy on the Cards in my opinion. I hope we saved some offense for tomorrow. Honestly, two series wins at home here aren't going to dramatically move the needle, but if we can do that and then split on the road with the Cards, that would be a huge boost in terms of making a statement that we'll really hang around. It may just be the case that none of the Central teams are significantly better than the others, which means at a certain point, if one of them is winning enough divisional series, they'll have a solid lead. Obviously, that's where losing series' to the Reds is a disaster, and it might actually be the case that Milwaukee will stay a few games in front of the pack, but they have some games in hand, and I'm a little skeptical of their staying power unless they make a play for Archer or Fulmer.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I've been offline all game because I had to find a stream due to MLB tv thinking this should be blacked out in Philly for some reason... just saw the Kingham news, very interesting. My guess is that we'll see a "DL" stint for Nova, but it's pretty hard to say.

On the other hand, with Meadows, if Marte is really ready to play, then I could see them doing the unpopular move and sending Meadows back. There's no way they'll waste his service time for him to not play every day. I think it probably just comes down to when they think Marte is ready to play everyday. It's going to be wildly unpopular to pull Meadows now, so I hope I'm either wrong, or at the very least that we'll drag our feet a bit until Meadows cools down for two or three games at least.
 
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JimmyTwoTimes

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What a great game to work out a lot of the bad feeling that had been building up in the last week. Still really early to say anything like this, but it seems like we have the Cardinals number a little bit. Gant was really cruising and in total control, and then Musgrove snuck a single in, and we quickly snuck 3 runs in through the open window.

I think Hurdle was a little aggressive in pulling Musgrove, and it didn't work perfectly in terms of the big strike, but at the same time, I see the rationale behind just calling it a day with 7 pretty much perfect innings. He did get hit around a bit in one or two rehab starts, and anyways, both Feliz and Vazquez are money. It's a topic for another day, but there's part of me that's a little skeptical that some of this stuff around Musgrove was a bit of a ploy to keep his innings a little more restricted and give him ample time to recover from the World Series.

Most important part in this game was seeing Cervelli continue to hit the ball for power. Any time he seems to have a hand injury it's a huge cause for concern. I don't even think it's a little bit debatable that he's the MVP on this team right now.

I'm curious what will happen with Marte. If he's healthy, obviously you want him available, but Meadows is on such a tear that there's no point in rushing him even a little bit. Maybe Polanco will come down with a phantom injury, but I'd just as soon give Marte some more days and keep riding this out.

Tomorrow should be another solid pitching matchup. We got to Flaherty in his game against us last month, but he's been very good since then, and in terms of stuff, may even be the best guy on the Cards in my opinion. I hope we saved some offense for tomorrow. Honestly, two series wins at home here aren't going to dramatically move the needle, but if we can do that and then split on the road with the Cards, that would be a huge boost in terms of making a statement that we'll really hang around. It may just be the case that none of the Central teams are significantly better than the others, which means at a certain point, if one of them is winning enough divisional series, they'll have a solid lead. Obviously, that's where losing series' to the Reds is a disaster, and it might actually be the case that Milwaukee will stay a few games in front of the pack, but they have some games in hand, and I'm a little skeptical of their staying power unless they make a play for Archer or Fulmer.


This team is alot more exciting than the last few years. Theres a completely different feel to the team. Other than Hurdle.

Moran and Dickerson starting off the year great(Corey continuing it) , helping the team win.

Cervelli with 7HRs and 30RBIs so far.

Meadows getting called up and making the most out of his opp. 3HR .450 avg. 2 steals.

Musgrove with a great first start like Kingham . Hopefully one or both of them can be top end guys.


Now what we need is...Polanco and Bell to step up. Bell not having a bad year but he should be much better. And for Taillon to be our ace. Those 3 are the problem right now. If we are getting the production we should be out of them all year...we are in first place right now and by a couple games.
 
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ImporterExporter

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Musgrove coming out? That's just dumb. He's on 67 ****ing pitches and he is cruising.

Reason # 757 why Hurdle is an idiot. 67 pitches. In 7 innings. 0 runs. And he gets yanked? There's no logic in pulling a guy who is close to dominant on the evening, especially when you can give the pen a night off, potentially. He could have thrown a 20 pitch 8th inning and still not been overworked....Musgrove looked great for the most part tonight.

Polanco showing absolutely nothing again tonight. Oh, btw. In the 2 hole. Again. Make that reason 758 on the #HurdleLogic meter.

Meadows is getting close to the point where teams will start having enough MLB tape to pitch him more creatively. He's going to have a rough patch at some point soon I'd wager but until that comes he should not be out of the lineup. I don't trust the Pirates one bit to make that reality though if and when Marte comes off the DL

Really sucks that Glasnow seems to be a bust overall. If he would have panned out our rotation would be solid enough to contend for a division title.

Please get Kingham up here.....
 

DanielPlainview

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Glasnow has looked pretty good this year. Definitely on the right track. Calling him a bust is extremely premature.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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Glasnow has looked pretty good this year. Definitely on the right track. Calling him a bust is extremely premature.

Yeah 35ks in 25 innings. He had two outings where he was bad , letting up 4 and 6 runs. The rest were good. Def not a bust yet. Still 24. Im more concerned about the Pirates staff now(used to be the opposite) more than Glasnow himself. After what weve seen and heard from Morton and Cole.

Taillon isnt where he should be. Glasnow was a top prospect for years and on paper..is an ace. We have Keller in the system next , who we need to pan out. Something needs to be fixed with the pitching staff.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I don't think it's a bad idea, Meadows speed is kind of wasted at the bottom of the order, but not sure Polanco's power is best suited for #7. Still, it's better to make some kind of change if he's just going to keep playing through the slump. I think a lot rests on the Marte decision. It seems pretty obvious to me that we should just cash in on Meadows for as long as we can: a sweep of one of these two teams might go a long way later in the season, so while the service time vs playing time question is a legitimate one, he's just playing too well to be put on the bench or see the end of his cup of coffee, given how we're locked in a battle with two of the three key opponents right now.

Brewers won again. We should have kept better pace with them, but regardless, this was a really essential win. Cards still have question marks and struggles around them, so if we get solid production in this series, another sweep isn't totally crazy. Would be such a relief for Taillon to put up a game resembling Musgrove's, but it also wouldn't be shocking if it's Taillon who goes to the DL or simply has a start skipped Sunday.

We need at least 4 or 5 games to really kick the Musgrove hype train into gear, but I think his stuff will play well in the NL, and he did seem to mix in an ok amount of offspeed stuff. Does anyone have a handy place they go to for pitch breakdowns?
 

DanielPlainview

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So, with Kingham getting yanked after 1 inning in Indy, it looks like he'll be making a spot start for Taillon (my guess).

Is Marte eligible to return Sunday? Is his DL stint retroactive to last Tuesday?
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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If we want to beat up on the Cards on Cubs we need both Meadows and Marte in the lineup. Polanco needs a break.

If Marte is ready soon, you dont remove Meadows. You put Polanco on the bench.


Williams is pitching tomorrow and Taillon on Sunday. Kingham should be in on Monday to start the Cubs series.

Taillon
Williams
Musgrove
Kingham
Kuhl

Nova out.
 

ResignCraigAdams

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If we want to beat up on the Cards on Cubs we need both Meadows and Marte in the lineup. Polanco needs a break.

If Marte is ready soon, you dont remove Meadows. You put Polanco on the bench.


Williams is pitching tomorrow and Taillon on Sunday. Kingham should be in on Monday to start the Cubs series.

Taillon
Williams
Musgrove
Kingham
Kuhl

Nova out.

I like that rotation. Brault and Glasnow were given their fair chance. They haven't showed anything close to what Kingham said Musgrove have shown in their limited starts.
 

DJ Spinoza

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It's hard to get a read on the Kingham move. I think the main options involve Taillon and Nova, with either just a skipped start, or perhaps a phantom injury which will lead to a longer look. Maybe there's an outside shot of going with a 6-man rotation and giving everyone some extra rest, but it makes more sense to just skip somebody's turn. Given the way it happened, it seems less like a premeditated move, so my best guess is that Taillon's start needs to be skipped.

With Marte also possibly looming (he can come off the DL tomorrow), who knows? It's definitely worth seeing what Kingham can do over 5-6 starts, so maybe Nova will come down with some kind of unexplained injury, and work on his stuff in bullpens for a while, to be resummoned in the event of another injury. I don't see a ton of options for the long-term other than trading Nova, or letting an injury sort it out. Kingham is a luxury to have in AAA, and it's really only an issue insofar as Nova will continue to be a major liability.

In terms of Meadows, I think him going back down is just a matter of when, not if. I could get on board with benching Polanco for a couple of games, but it's similarly not a long-term solution, unless you think Meadows will be an everyday player for the rest of the season. The most I could see is giving Marte a couple more days, or benching Polanco a couple of days, and then Meadows will go back. There's no other way to manage it given Super Two status. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that we'd explore the option of moving Polanco, but it's not the right time for that yet.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

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Glasnow just needs to keep having games like he did a few nights ago. The longer he keeps that up(two innings of clean work) the more confidence he will have.

Still has the potential to be a top of the rotation pitcher. Most of it is mental. 35ks in 25 innings , he will at least be a solid RP but we need more after him being our best prospect. And still has the best stuff out of all of our pitchers.

Hoping he can reach that potential eventually. Doesnt have to be this year but a rotation of...


Glasnow
Taillon
Keller
Musgrove
Kingham/Williams/Kuhl

In that order (meaning guys reaching their potential) would be lights out next year.
 

DJ Spinoza

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I'm actually kind of banking on Meadows going back to AAA today, as furious as it will make everyone (and to be clear, although I think we should do it soon enough to avoid Super Two, I think it would be very bad timing, and at the very least we should try to ride the hot streak out over this homestand). However, the Kingham potential callup is throwing a curveball into things.

My guess as to best case scenario for those who want to see Meadows stay is that Osuna goes down, Marte activated, and Taillon or Nova goes on the 10-Day DL, with Kingham coming in. Maybe it will be some noise about the cut on Taillon's hand needing plenty of rest, or it will be some vague lie about Nova's upper or lower body, but the fact that Kingham was pulled from his start makes me assume that we need a starter very soon.

Too many variables to play much of a guessing game, but I suppose we could see something like Marte activated with Meadows still on the team, and then you keep playing Meadows and bench Polanco to see if it can get him right. Then Meadows still goes down at the end of the homestand, but in that case, I don't think Osuna could come back up so quickly. So who knows?
 

Empoleon8771

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I doubt Glasnow breaks into the starting rotation anytime soon just because of how many starters the Pirates already have. With Musgrove performing really well yesterday, I think he's a lock to be in the rotation for a while. You already have Taillon, Nova, Williams, Musgrove, Kuhl, Brault and Kingham who would start a game before Glasnow would. I actually think Glasnow has been good this season despite his high ERA, his ERA is inflated by giving up 6 runs in an inning in 1 outing. He's given up 9 earned runs in 24.2 innings outside of that May 1st game against the Nationals, which is a pretty solid 3.28 ERA.

I'd like to see Glasnow get a start, but I don't see it unless a bunch of injuries hit.
 

cheesedanish87

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I'l be pretty annoyed if they send Meadows down today.

You gotta at least ride this hot streak hes on especially when you have Polanco in a major funk.

Somebody can correct me if i'm wrong, but can't they just take Marte off the DL and put Nova on it today?

No reason to call Kinghan up til the day he actually needs to start.
 

DJ Spinoza

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That's a good point - there's no real necessity to actually call Kingham up unless he is starting in place of Williams. So if it's for Taillon, they can wait til tomorrow, and if it's for Nova, until next week. That would obviate sending Osuna back down.

I would love to see Glasnow get a crack at starting in the abstract, but the situation both with who is in front of him, and with our competitiveness for the division, prevents it. If we were below .500 and in 4th place, then I'd be suggesting we should be figuring out how to make the move as soon as possible. But since we're not and hopefully won't be for a while, he just needs to stick in his current situation.

Even setting aside the decent stats, I think the eye test says he's a much different pitcher right now. The fastball location gives him the leg up whenever he is coming in, which he just never had at any point previously. Hopefully he can also tinker and work on some minor things with Searage, testing them out over the course of games. Best case scenario is that he'll continue to improve and eventually be more of a weapon. If he becomes a pitcher like Betances or Miller, that isn't the end of the world, given where the league is headed. But before getting ahead of ourselves, I think the plan is just to stay the course and revisit him as a starter next season.

Maybe he'll get a chance to spot start at some point, but there have been some opportunities already and he's been passed over. I think he just sticks with getting outs at the back of the bullpen. Maybe at some point if you have Williams or Kuhl's turn coming against a team with very good righties at the top, you go with this idea of using him as the "opener," especially if we get a situation where he doesn't have a ton of mopup duty. But given the inconsistency from a lot of starters, he'll keep getting the MLB experience and success he needs, which is key for making him a useful bullpen piece or something more.
 

DJ Spinoza

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Halfway good news I guess? I don't see the logic in sticking with Polanco, though one thing that might happen is Marte will be eased back in, so maybe Meadows still sticks around until that happens, i.e. another week or so? Osuna going down means we won't have a real 4th outfielder once Meadows goes back, but that's not going to stop Hurdle...

Strategically, it's not the worst move to actually have Meadows around to spell Marte every now and then, and give Dickerson and Polanco regular rest. But I'll be floored if Meadows doesn't go back down to get every day at-bats and avoid Super Two.
 

DanielPlainview

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Poor Osuna. The Pirates really do not have a position for him. I imagine if a move is made with an AL team, he'll be part of it. Could be a good DH.
 

DanielPlainview

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Also, the yanking of Kingham last night from his start made it apparent that the Pirates are really taking their time with Glasnow. They may not have any plans to have him start this year.
 
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