OT: Raise the Jolly Roger: The Condemned of Altoona

[cookthebooks]

musgroves arm might fall off but at least hes not supsended for 50 games

 

[Asuna]

huntington is #vindicated

 

[Winger for Hire]

Michael Saunders signed to an MiLB by the Buccos.

More lottery ticket depth, but there is the 2016 MLB success to hope for.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I know it's a broken record, but I haven't really seen the issue stacked up between the two teams like this so starkly.

A Tale OF Two Small Markets | BaseballAmerica.com

 

[DJ Spinoza]

There are some true elements to it, though it's a bit stark for my taste. For one thing, they are trending in different directions: the Pirates have a whole host of problems, whereas the Brewers are more positioned in terms of on the cusp of earlier than expected success. As a retroactive critique of what the Pirates did over an earlier period, I buy into the idea, and perhaps even moreso than from the perspective of today, since the Cubs weren't quite yet a force until the 98-win season.

From today's perspective, I think there are different ways to look at it. On the one hand, I think with Cole, you had to turn him into more controllable assets. To me, the biggest and really only question there is whether his value would be higher at the trade deadline than it is now. I lean towards no, and I think this was the biggest reason why the move came now.

With Cutch, it's a bit different of a story. Certainly the blow will be easier if Reynolds ends up as an everyday player in 2-3 years, but I think that's where you could take the perspective of presend-day talent and the weaker market and say the Pirates should have made a more decisive attempt to win. Let Cutch play things out in a contract year, take the comp pick, and move on. Supplement him with some actual talent: we could easily have made all these same moves as depth/4th OF types, and then spent hardly anything to get another infield option, and invested in one of the starting pitchers.

How much does that all really move the needle? I'm skeptical, but it's at least more viable, and certainly a real decision to compete, much moreso than what we've gotten from Huntington, which is the baseball equivalent of thoughts and prayers.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Good stuff, but the last line earned my Like

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Slightly semantic in terms of what's counted as an MLB free agent - the Pirates are ending up with more flexibilty because they aren't guaranteeing MLB contracts to similar calibre players - but the obvious point still remains.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Woof

 

[Asuna]

i would have taken a flyer on gomez for that price

 

[AverageJoeFan]

Possibilities, it seems we hang our hopes on that every year. I'm not very confident the development staff is going to turn guys around, but I think it's a chance worth taking.
That said, I think the pitching is my biggest concern. Then again, if our run production is crap that will only exacerbate the issue. Scarier for me to think about might be that all players currently on the roster need to perform at close to optimum for them to reach the .500 mark.
Sorry for the lack of positivism, but I just do not see anything more than the sunset on this team.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

i would have taken a flyer on gomez for that price

I came in here to post this. He's got some pop in addition to solid baserunning and fielding. I think Gomez has always been a tad over-looked.

Ok. Seeing the terms now just makes me flat out angry. If the Bucs could have bested the Rays' offer, they would enter the season with a very solid starting outfield with depth and competition.

I guess besting an offer for 1 year at 4 million was just too steep a price to ask to acquire a proven major league player at a position of need. It's not like the team just unloaded 2 contracts this offseason.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Gomez definitely seems like someone who could have been worth taking a shot on, though I don't like him specifically - I seem to vaguely recall something about locker room issues with him, which is probably the last thing this team needs to add.

In a sense I think he shows some of the weakness of Crasnick's tweet, since he'd technically count as a MLB free agent, but I'd only really consider that every so slightly an upgrade. The other CarGo would at least have some real upside if things went well, whereas a lot of the rest of what's out there is a middling 3rd/4th type. I'd put Maybin, Gomez, Dyson, Smith etc all into this category, and I genuinely don't know how much better any one of them would be than whoever plays best/works their way into a platoon from the glut of options we've gathered. I'd except other CarGo from this, as well as Cabrera, but neither is a perfect fit.

Regardless, the main idea is that these guys are getting barely anything and have flashed the upside before, so I get the motivation. I'd just as soon try to get a more guaranteed everyday option, and/or insist that the money should be invested into a pitcher. The problem there is losing the pick, but it's moot because this money is not going to be spent.

At the end of the day, Cervelli is the highest paid player on the 2018 team, and they've done nothing both assemble more organizational depth while they hope and pray for breakouts and maximized performances.

 

[Rakell67]

That organization makes it difficult to wear my Pirates hat (brand47, gold with black brim) daily, but I like it. At least they make my decision on driving 3 1/2 hours to Pittsburgh for a ballgame and spending money on a hotel, etc. an easy Nah.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Gomez is a very clear upgrade over the current options the Pirates have for their 3rd outfielder in terms of proven major league talent. Outside of his time with the Astros, Gomez has been a consistent ~.800 ops player with good speed, fielding, and arm. The Pirates have nobody competing for a spot who can claim to have those tools at the major league level, and it is not particularly close.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Gomez is a very clear upgrade over the current options the Pirates have for their 3rd outfielder in terms of proven major league talent. Outside of his time with the Astros, Gomez has been a consistent ~.800 ops player with good speed, fielding, and arm. The Pirates have nobody competing for a spot who can claim to have those tools at the major league level, and it is not particularly close.

I don't agree - I might be underselling Gomez just slightly, but I think he's got enough question marks to not really be in the same strata as Cabrera, who would be the consistent, definite everyday option we're in search of, setting aside the defense.

I just don't think Gomez's combination of problems and question marks is the right fit. The defense and speed aren't really there anymore, and I think his swing and miss approach, plus power from the right side, are not the best fits in PNC Park.

Is he definitively above Saunders, Brentz, Frazier, et al? Yes, certainly, which is why I'd put him around league average, whereas the crew that the Pirates have assembled basically amounts to throwing a bunch of darts at the wall and hoping you get something like league average... I guess while also waiting for Meadows? It's certainly a problem, compounded by having no confidence in Polanco. Ultimately I see Meadows lingering in the background as the primary cause for the OF moves. Huntington has consistently been dogged or dogmatic (depending on your perspective) in his support of him, and so we've basically improved the organizational depth of viable bench OFs while having an injury-plagued, inconsistent player, a guy returning from almost a full season off, and an injury-plagued, somewhat inconsistent top prospect. Gomez or Dyson or whoever make that picture look a little better, but clearly the plan is Meadows-Marte-Polanco by midseason.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I don't agree - I might be underselling Gomez just slightly, but I think he's got enough question marks to not really be in the same strata as Cabrera, who would be the consistent, definite everyday option we're in search of, setting aside the defense.

So, Carlos Gomez, worth 1.8 war in 105 games last season, is not in the same strata as Melky Cabrera, worth -.1 war in 156 games last season?

What is your metric for determining this? Batting average?

 

[cookthebooks]

pirates get dickerson per tim?

 

[Asuna]

well there it is

 

[Winger for Hire]

Well, that helps clear some bullpen log jam and adds a little clout to the lineup.

I'm fine with this. I don't think it improves the team enough to get my hopes up, but it is some signs of life and a small, small step forward

 

[DJ Spinoza]

So, Carlos Gomez, worth 1.8 war in 105 games last season, is not in the same strata as Melky Cabrera, worth -.1 war in 156 games last season?

What is your metric for determining this? Batting average?

I had typed up something raising the polemic in reply to you, but there's really no point. Here's what I'll say: I don't get a lot out of engagements with you, precisely because from my perspective you seem to try and ratchet up the polemic by posting things like this in response to what I say. Part of it is the nature of online discussion, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but seriously, how else is it possible to read your recourse to batting average other than as an insult to me? I have not ever relied on batting average as a metric. My claim in general was that a whole set of guys basically have league average upside. I don't like Gomez's particular set of skills for the Pirates, but I tried to concede the point to you at the beginning and end of the post that I was maybe a little too harsh on where Gomez is at right now in his career. You either didn't read the post or ignored it--from now on, I will be doing the latter with you.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I had typed up something raising the polemic in reply to you, but there's really no point. Here's what I'll say: I don't get a lot out of engagements with you, precisely because from my perspective you seem to try and ratchet up the polemic by posting things like this in response to what I say. Part of it is the nature of online discussion, and I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but seriously, how else is it possible to read your recourse to batting average other than as an insult to me? I have not ever relied on batting average as a metric. My claim in general was that a whole set of guys basically have league average upside. I don't like Gomez's particular set of skills for the Pirates, but I tried to concede the point to you at the beginning and end of the post that I was maybe a little too harsh on where Gomez is at right now in his career. You either didn't read the post or ignored it--from now on, I will be doing the latter with you.

I'd put this down to the lack of tone in writing. I was asking that because that is literally the only metric where Melky had a superior performance last year. I'm sorry if you took that as an insult. Then, you insult me because I pointed out that it is flat out wrong to say Melky is on a higher plane than Gomez. It is clear you can't seperate your dislike of Gomez from his performance.

It's good to know what you truly think of me, though. I will save you the effort of reading things that you get nothing out of in the future. Maybe I need a break from the internet.

 

[DJ Spinoza]

This is a relieving move: Dickerson becoming available was practically a gift relative to the Pirates position, and we cleared Hudson's contract to make space for a younger arm to get a chance.

On a sober note, Dickerson is not insanely more valuable than some of the free agents who were available, and the downturn in the second half is nothing to totally ignore.

I like the potential for LH power on the team. Besides Dickerson, it's really more projection and things to hope on, but basically all of the division opponents have righty-heavy rotations at this point, and I think bullpens too.

 

[Winger for Hire]

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Dickerson in and Hudson out are both moves I can agree with.

Not enough to preemptively end my sabbatical season, of course, but it's still a something for practically nothing deal.

 

[WickedWrister]

What are some modest projections if he takes the everyday job? .270 AVG/25 HR/70 RBI?