Questions for Classic Hockey

[chooch*]

If you have the time to answer these (and any others):

1) from the 60's Leafs teams, your thoughts on who was the best player, most valuable, most respected, most interesting as a person, anything else etc?

2) you've written about Gordie, but, which opposing player did those teams respect? or hate?


Thanks

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[Big Phil]

Well from the 60s Leaf teams I'd have to say Mahovolich and Bower. There's no way the Leafs win four Cups without Bower. Other than him and Mahovolich they never had any really GREAT players but just a lot of good ones. Guys like Pulford, Armstrong, Keon, Kelly. And on Defence it was Horton, Baun, Stanley and etc. The best player was Mahovolich of those teams but Bower saved their bacon a lot of the time.

 

[Snap Wilson]

Phil hit it on the head, especially in regards to Bower. Despite the Cup victories, the Leafs weren't a great team, but rather a good team with a great goaltender who took advantage of a transitional period for the Habs to sneak in a "dynasty." When there's only six teams in the league, a money goaltender can do that for you.

 

[ClassicHockey]

The best Leaf player of the 60's was Dave Keon. Players from that team will tell you that the 4 Cup victories would not have been possible without Dave Keon. Bower was important and came up big but Don Simmons was the goalie in 62 when they won the Cup and Sawchuk was in net for the 1967 win. Bower got them there, though.

Keon was the most valuable and Red Kelly was also valuable in an unsung way.

The most skilled were Frank Mahovlich and Carl Brewer and of course Keon.
The notion that the Leafs were not the most skilled team and relied on goaltending in the 60's is very wrong. The Leaf team in 1962-63 finished in 1st place and easily won the Cup in 10 games. If the Leafs had Toe Blake as coach, the Leafs would have won a few more Cups in the 60's. The Leafs won in spite of Punch Imlach. This is what the Leafs from the 1960's tell me.

Look at the Leafs ofthe 60's and the skill level - Horton, Brewer, Stanley, Mahovlich, Keon, Kelly, on and on. The 1964 Cup team had 9 Hall of Famers, the 1967 team had 10 Hall of Famers on the team.

I could write hours on the 60's Leafs as that is my area of expertise. I am friends with a number of players on the team and have had the pleasure of watching old games on TV with a Leaf player telling me what really happened on the ice, what their real emotions were.

The most interesting?

Carl Brewer and Frank Mahovlich. Both were complex guys. I got to know Brewer before he died and we had some good talks. There is a proposal for a book on Carl Brewer and I'm helping with that. Fortunately, he left some of his thoughts on paper. Frank Mahovlich? We've had a lot of discussions. Too much to write. If you questions about any players, just ask.

Red Kelly was well respected by opponents and he was a better player than most people know. Kelly made his teammates better. Pulford, in his earlier days was tough to play against. There was tremendous respect for Tim Horton. I could go on and on.

Opponents that the Leafs respected or hated? Well, they feared John Ferguson and of course hated him. Beliveau was one that was well respected.

Eddie Shack, Carl Brewer and Bob Baun were Leafs players who were disliked around the league.

If you have the time to answer these (and any others):

1) from the 60's Leafs teams, your thoughts on who was the best player, most valuable, most respected, most interesting as a person, anything else etc?

2) you've written about Gordie, but, which opposing player did those teams respect? or hate?


Thanks

 

[Snap Wilson]

Bower was important and came up big but Don Simmons was the goalie in 62 when they won the Cup and Sawchuk was in net for the 1967 win. Bower got them there, though.

Simmons just happened to be in net when the beat the Hawks in the Finals, but Bower was the man for them in the playoffs.

The notion that the Leafs were not the most skilled team and relied on goaltending in the 60's is very wrong.

But they weren't the most skilled team. The Habs were!

The Leaf team in 1962-63 finished in 1st place and easily won the Cup in 10 games.

They finished first, yes, five points ahead of the fourth-place Wings. Not exactly blowing the league away, and that was their only first-place finish the entire decade. And the reason they swept through the playoffs is because Bower had an absolutely stellar postseason, one for the ages. His domination of the Habs that year will always be etched in my mind.

If the Leafs had Toe Blake as coach, the Leafs would have won a few more Cups in the 60's. The Leafs won in spite of Punch Imlach. This is what the Leafs from the 1960's tell me.

That was the general impression from the stands, as well. Never could stand Imlach.

Look at the Leafs ofthe 60's and the skill level - Horton, Brewer, Stanley, Mahovlich, Keon, Kelly, on and on. The 1964 Cup team had 9 Hall of Famers, the 1967 team had 10 Hall of Famers on the team.

Yes, but many of those HOFers were in for their accomplishments with other teams, and I'm not sure it's representative of their talent level anyway. The "Over the Hill Gang" (tell us what the players thought of that moniker, CH) with it's ten Hall of Famers was outscored during the regular season and finished in third place. Personally, I think some of the HOF inductions from those teams are rather dubious as it is.

Sorry, don't mean to crap all over the thread. I was a Habs worshipper at the time, and I probably still hold some hostility towards those Toronto teams. Provost's OT goal to end the Leafs Cup run is one of my most vivid and lasting hockey memories.

 

[chooch*]

Frank

I 'll start here:

Did his beautiful stride and overall skills come naturally?

was Frank truly sullen and uncommunicative in the dressing room (even Lafleur described him as such) or just quiet and thoughtful as I believed;

how did he get along with Punch and then with Gordie etc?

Whats does he think is his greatest moment (Habs 71?)

what did he think of the $1million episode?

did he enjoy his Toros days? do you know what his top salary was?

He was considered to have been too emotional during the 72 series and thus ineffective - comments?

any word on Pete's health?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Typical 'Montrealcentric' view of hockey never giving credit to other teams and players. That's why some Montreal fans have been so insufferable over the years. Montreal obviously had great teams and players but fans from other cities recognize greatness outside their own teams. Unfortunately, Montreal fans (like yourself) have the attitude that hockey greatness is the sole domain of the Montreal Canadiens.

You need to do some in-depth analysis of teams of the 60's before you comment. I'll only respond this one time to you unless you can do some analysis taking in all factors and all sides. I could tell you how Toronto dominated Montreal in the 1963 playoffs and no sane person could say that Montreal had more talent that year. I could talk about the foolish notion that the Montreal Canadiens were so superior in 1967 over the Leafs. Montreal couldn't even take the Leafs to 7 games that year. But the most telling statistic is during the regular season, Montreal and Toronto had exactly the same number of wins during the year! Look it up.

You obviously don't know or have studied the 'systems' of the Leafs in the 60's. Great offensive talents like Mahovlich, Keon and others were stifled by Imlach's systems. Players like Mahovlich, Nevin, Duff and others thrived with other teams and showed their true skill level. Mahovlich himself says that he could never show his proper skill set with the Leafs. Same for Brewer, Horton, Nevin, Duff and others.

You might also want to talk to a few players from that era to get a feeling about talent, emotion, systems and other important factors - especially coaching.

Shake your head a bit and recognize that Montreal didn't have the best pure talent
in the NHL in the 60's - Chicago Black Hawks did. Unfortunately for them, their systems were the opposite to the Leafs and they won 1 Stanley Cup and the Leafs won 4. I can recognize greatness in other cities and take an open-minded view. Maybe you should too.

Don't just look at the standings and make your comparisons - hockey is more complicated than that.

That's my comments and now I'll respond to Chood's questions.

Simmons just happened to be in net when the beat the Hawks in the Finals, but Bower was the man for them in the playoffs.


But they weren't the most skilled team. The Habs were!


They finished first, yes, five points ahead of the fourth-place Wings. Not exactly blowing the league away, and that was their only first-place finish the entire decade. And the reason they swept through the playoffs is because Bower had an absolutely stellar postseason, one for the ages. His domination of the Habs that year will always be etched in my mind.


That was the general impression from the stands, as well. Never could stand Imlach.


Yes, but many of those HOFers were in for their accomplishments with other teams, and I'm not sure it's representative of their talent level anyway. The "Over the Hill Gang" (tell us what the players thought of that moniker, CH) with it's ten Hall of Famers was outscored during the regular season and finished in third place. Personally, I think some of the HOF inductions from those teams are rather dubious as it is.

Sorry, don't mean to crap all over the thread. I was a Habs worshipper at the time, and I probably still hold some hostility towards those Toronto teams. Provost's OT goal to end the Leafs Cup run is one of my most vivid and lasting hockey memories.

 

[ClassicHockey]

First, I'll say this, I've gotten to know Frank Mahovlich quite well over the last few years and I'll tell you that he is a classy person that is always thinking about the well-being of others.

One of the best things in watching hockey from the 60's is seeing the smooth and graceful skating stride of the 'Big M'. There were no hockey schools when he grew up so he developed his own skills. Its a hard question to answer but you would think that his skills came to him naturally.

From talking to other players, yes, Frank was very quiet in the dressing room. Teammates could only mention a few times when Frank was a vociferous leader in the dressing room. But it did happen on occasion. But most of the time, he sat there contemplating. Yes, sometimes, he got lost in his thoughts there and on the ice. Even today, when talking to him, you can sense that.

Imlach beat him down so much that in the later years with the Leafs, he was sullen and more quite. It was just his nature anyways to be quiet so you could imagine the stress and the effect that Imlach's handling of him caused. It wasn't in Frank to let it all out.

He was also very thoughtful about others. If you ask him about his greatest plays, he will tell you of his assists and setups before his goals. He knows exactly how many goals he set Cournoyer up for. He thought they worked well together.
Frank will tell you that if he had started his career with Montreal and their system, that he would have had a huge increase in goals scored. He couldn't show his skills in Toronto's defensive system.

He didn't get along with Punch and that really started after the first holdout and the million dollar offer. It was never the same after that.

The 1 million dollar episode surprised him and I think for the first time, he realized his importance and also started the bitterness because he thought he was taken advantage of.

He liked his Toro days - less pressure. As for the 1972 series, well, he sort of 'lost it'. He came from an east european background and he was impressionable during the 'Cold War' and being the sensitive man he was, he was adversely affected during the 1972 series and performed poorly. There's more to that storey as well.

I 'll start here:

Did his beautiful stride and overall skills come naturally?

was Frank truly sullen and uncommunicative in the dressing room (even Lafleur described him as such) or just quiet and thoughtful as I believed;

how did he get along with Punch and then with Gordie etc?

Whats does he think is his greatest moment (Habs 71?)

what did he think of the $1million episode?

did he enjoy his Toros days? do you know what his top salary was?

He was considered to have been too emotional during the 72 series and thus ineffective - comments?

any word on Pete's health?

 

[chooch*]

As for the 1972 series, well, he sort of 'lost it'. He came from an east european background and he was impressionable during the 'Cold War' and being the sensitive man he was, he was adversely affected during the 1972 series and performed poorly. There's more to that storey as well.

He does indeed seem like a classy guy. Id like to hear more of that 72 story. I always thought a book on the Mahovs of Timmins would be a good read.

As for Keon - what is it that prevents a rapprochement? He did a VIA commercial but wont attend the Gardens closing 15 years after Ballards death?

Brewer - didnt know much about his story except his pension fight. He sounds like he was a real rebel and someone a guy can admire - not afraid to buck popular opinion for whats right and willing to take the heat.

Wasnt there a leafs dman who won the calder in the 60's but never became a star?

Do you know Paul (forget his last name) the old arena announcer - his voice always brings back memories altho I was living in Montreal (Mouton is the same way for me).

I remember Jim McKenny a little and he and Lanny remain the only 2 leafs I've run into.

I recall Jim Dorey too (as a Ranger also!).

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

He does indeed seem like a classy guy. Id like to hear more of that 72 story. I always thought a book on the Mahovs of Timmins would be a good read.

As for Keon - what is it that prevents a rapprochement? He did a VIA commercial but wont attend the Gardens closing 15 years after Ballards death?

Brewer - didnt know much about his story except his pension fight. He sounds like he was a real rebel and someone a guy can admire - not afraid to buck popular opinion for whats right and willing to take the heat.
Wasnt there a leafs dman who won the calder in the 60's but never became a star?

Do you know Paul (forget his last name) the old arena announcer - his voice always brings back memories altho I was living in Montreal (Mouton is the same way for me).

I remember Jim McKenny a little and he and Lanny remain the only 2 leafs I've run into.

I recall Jim Dorey too (as a Ranger also!).

Yes., that was a nice thing about Brewer, he fought for real causes. He didn't just act like a belligerent jackass for the purpose of trying to be tough or cool. He was actually arguing real causes.

 

[Lowetide]

He does indeed seem like a classy guy. Id like to hear more of that 72 story. I always thought a book on the Mahovs of Timmins would be a good read.

As for Keon - what is it that prevents a rapprochement? He did a VIA commercial but wont attend the Gardens closing 15 years after Ballards death?

Brewer - didnt know much about his story except his pension fight. He sounds like he was a real rebel and someone a guy can admire - not afraid to buck popular opinion for whats right and willing to take the heat.

Wasnt there a leafs dman who won the calder in the 60's but never became a star?

Do you know Paul (forget his last name) the old arena announcer - his voice always brings back memories altho I was living in Montreal (Mouton is the same way for me).

I remember Jim McKenny a little and he and Lanny remain the only 2 leafs I've run into.

I recall Jim Dorey too (as a Ranger also!).

I'd like to hear that Frank '72 story too. I remember my Dad and I sitting playing cribbage that September near Maidstone Saskatchewn and talking about the series. We both agreed Big Frank would shine, but it turned out Phil Esposito was the star of that series.

I can answer a couple of these. Kent Douglas won the Calder in 1963 but spent at least part of the season in the minors for two of the next four seasons. This could be attributed to the Leafs incredible depth (Al Arbour was pretty much a victim of the same depth) by there was an old story about Douglas doing something verboten and being banished.

Keon was a beauty player but iirc in 1972 at the start of the NHL Soviet series recruitment there were rumors he was going to jump to the WHA. He didn't get invited and most certainly would have been had it not been for that. CH can certainly answer this better than me, but I had always heard that was the beginning of the end. Either way, I've said this before but Keon was the best Leaf from my childhood and my Dad loved Frank Mahovlich so it'd be pretty easy for me to vote for the Big M.

Dorey was a tough defender, I remember him as a real scrapper. Brewer I honestly don't recall that much as a player for Toronto, he didn't play for them after 64-65 until 79-80. I do remember his time in Detroit and St. Louis though and he made the All Star Team for Detroit 1970 (2nd team).

Little before my time in Toronto days, though.

 

[mcphee]

I think Chooch meant Kent Douglas a Calder winner who never did much afterwards.

Classic, out of curiosity,were you old enough to watch that Leaf team ? I was born in 55, in Mtl. so naturally I despised that team and everything about them with a fervor that I can still maintain on occasion. A few comments on your posts.

I've heard Frank M. on Mtl. radio numerous times over the last few years when in Mtl. for various events and he sounds like such a different guy than the one we remembered as a player, much more easygoing and comfortable. I heard him with his brother [one of my all time favorites], and Frank sounded like the extroverted brother. It was good to hear him like that.

In doing your research, you must chuckle when you hear people complaining about obstruction in today's game. Wasn't the general perception in the early 60's that Chicago had the flash,Mtl. and Detroit were the good skating teams and the Leafs 'clutched and grabbed' their way to the Cup ? Don't get me wrong, I'll admit to my Montreal Centric pov, but that was the perception, fair or not. Obviously, looking back at the roster, they were a tremendous team and can't be denied their due, but perception is what it is.

Did Imlach not acquire Kelly for 2 reasons, a center for the Big M, and a big guy to line up against Beliveau ? I agree about Keon, he was the heart and soul of that team. Think of the 3 center matchups in those days agaist Mtl. Beliveau/Kelly,Keon/Richard and Pulford/Backstrom. Not too shabby at all.

In your travels have you had occasion to meet or interview Jean Beliveau ? I've heard him say that he always felt the 60's Habs were shortchanged historically in that they were close to having another 5 Cup streak, if not for 67. I know complaining about 67 is ridiculous when measured against the evnts of the following 38 seasons, but that one sticks in my craw. Call me petty, I can take it.

I saw the G6 replay on TSN this winter and was impressed particularly by Allan Stanley on defense. It's easy to speak of Tim Horton from those days because of the obvious legend, but Stanley was quietly effective, possibly moreso.

Toronto's roster to an extent, at least in Imlach's mind was built to punish the faster Mtl. team and had a direct bearing on Sam Pollock bringing Terry Harper,Ted Harris and John Ferguson to the team. Do you think Ferguson started the designated fighter role that we have today ? Fergy was a decent palyer, but would ofeten instigate to change the flow of a game. There were other tough guys but I don't rememebre many with that type of specific role.

 

[Snap Wilson]

Typical 'Montrealcentric' view of hockey never giving credit to other teams and players. That's why some Montreal fans have been so insufferable over the years. Montreal obviously had great teams and players but fans from other cities recognize greatness outside their own teams. Unfortunately, Montreal fans (like yourself) have the attitude that hockey greatness is the sole domain of the Montreal Canadiens.

CH, I'm not going to get into this too much with you, but:

a) I'm not from Montreal.

b) I didn't compare the Leafs to the Habs other than one sentence which was accompanied by a smiley.

c) In regards to doing "research," well... I was there. I saw those Habs, Hawks and even your beloved Leafs play. I was at the forum in '64 when Keon scored a hat trick to send the Leafs on to the finals. Where were you?

d) It's appropriate, I suppose, to not look at the standings or statistics when they run contrary to what you believe, but facts is facts. During the duration of the Leafs "dynasty" (1961-62 through 1966-67) both the Habs and the Hawks scored more goals, allowed fewer goals, and won more games than the Leafs.

I'll stand by my assertion that the Leafs of the 60's weren't a great team, but a good one who put together a few great playoff runs. It has nothing to do with Hab bias. I think the Habs dynasty of the late sixties was a bit overrated as well. In a six-team league (that wasn't as competitive as people like to think), it's fairly likely that one team will win three or four Stanley Cups over a short period of time.

And I'm eager to hear the Mahovlich story as well.

 

[Snap Wilson]

Wasn't the general perception in the early 60's that Chicago had the flash,Mtl. and Detroit were the good skating teams and the Leafs 'clutched and grabbed' their way to the Cup ? Don't get me wrong, I'll admit to my Montreal Centric pov, but that was the perception, fair or not.

That was the perception (although it was more "grinded their way to the Cup" rather than "clutched and grabbed,") and not just in Montreal. I don't think it's entirely fair, though. The Leafs played physical, chippy hockey. They weren't as creative as the Habs or as flashy as the Hawks, but they had some good offensive talent.

I concur with your opinion of Fergie as well. He was the prototype, and I don't think any other enforcer had as much impact on the game since. But that could be "Hab bias."

 

[ClassicHockey]

Frank Mahovlich's son Ted wrote a book on his dad and it was considered a 'Best Seller'. It is an interesting story.

I don't know if any of you know this but the Hockey Hall Fame, instead of letting each member of the Stanley Cup winning team take the Cup for a day, (in the absence of any champion) are giving the cup to as many of the older players who won Stanley Cups in the past. The players and their families are so thankful as its a big deal to them. How would you like to have the Cup for a day to take anywhere you want? There are lots of good, heartwarming stories coming out of the visits. And, what is nice to see is that some players are taking the Cup back to their roots - where they grew up and learned the game. Frank Mahovlich is scheduled to take the Cup back to Timmins for his 'day with Stanley'. There are a lot of happy people in these small towns who would not otherwise get a chance to see the cup.
(I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling you this stuff.)

Regarding Keon, it wasn't just the fact that Ballard wouldn't sign him and he had to go to the WHA, but there was a big problem when Keon wanted to come back to the NHL and play with the Islanders on their first Cup team in 1980. The Leafs blocked that move, Keon missed out on another Stanley Cup and hasn't forgotten what the Leafs did to him.

By the way, I found Keon to be very friendly and pleasant and he has a great memory for details of hockey in the 60's.

Too much to write about Carl Brewer and his fights with the establishment. The book should be interesting. If you have specific questions, that might be better.

Yes, it was Kent Douglas who won the Calder trophy as a 26 year old and he played as a 5th defenceman when teams back then only used 4. The Leafs traded 5 guys to Springfield for Douglas (including Bill White).

Paul Morris was the announcer at the Leafs games. The Leafs took his job away after they moved to the ACC. I guess they wanted a new look.

Jim Mckenny is hilarious and Lanny is a class guy - one of the best.

He does indeed seem like a classy guy. Id like to hear more of that 72 story. I always thought a book on the Mahovs of Timmins would be a good read.

As for Keon - what is it that prevents a rapprochement? He did a VIA commercial but wont attend the Gardens closing 15 years after Ballards death?

Brewer - didnt know much about his story except his pension fight. He sounds like he was a real rebel and someone a guy can admire - not afraid to buck popular opinion for whats right and willing to take the heat.

Wasnt there a leafs dman who won the calder in the 60's but never became a star?

Do you know Paul (forget his last name) the old arena announcer - his voice always brings back memories altho I was living in Montreal (Mouton is the same way for me).

I remember Jim McKenny a little and he and Lanny remain the only 2 leafs I've run into.

I recall Jim Dorey too (as a Ranger also!).

 

[ClassicHockey]

Brewer was always 'different' and his teammates sometimes couldn't handle that. Brewer, for all his public image, was still wasn't a very 'confident' person. He had a lot of demons - most hockey related - that tormented him until he died. He was a real complicated guy and the retired players owed him a lot.

Yes., that was a nice thing about Brewer, he fought for real causes. He didn't just act like a belligerent jackass for the purpose of trying to be tough or cool. He was actually arguing real causes.

 

[ClassicHockey]

You know your hockey history.

It was thought that Frank Mahovlich was going to be a factor in beating the Russians in 1972. Mahovlich always had problems with handling pressure in the NHL and he couldn't handle the extreme pressure in that 1972 Summit Series.
After game 4 in Vancouver, Mahovlich was allowed to go home instead of going to Sweden to play the exhibition games. The Team Canada brass thought that they needed Frank Mahovlich to help beat the Soviets. The other players on the team didn't appreciate the special treatment afforded the 'Big M', especially after he was put in the lineup for game 5.
Mahovlich was a student of history and his parents came from a country under communist influence. So, he knew about Napolean being stopped on the outskirts of Moscow and the Germans being stopped outside the city in WWII.
Mahovlich was so spooked about communism and the spies and the 'bugging' of the rooms, that he declared that it might be a good idea to camp outside the city in tents or something and just go into Moscow for the games.
Mahovlich couldn't perform to his level of play in the games and for some reason, the coaching staff still had enough confidence in him to dress in game 8. But Mahovlich lasted only a part of the game before Esposito demanded they take Mahovlich off his line. So, he was benched in the important game which was a tough thing to do since Parise had been thrown out of the game.

Kent Douglas was banned from Junior hockey for hitting a referee, I think. Douglas, who is quite open about talking about incidents, didn't want to talk about that as he probably wasn't proud of what he did.

Keon would have helped against the Russians in 1972 but a lot of the choices for the team were 'political' as you say.

Jim Dorey was a tough guy and if you had a beer with him, he would tell you some pretty good WHA stories.

By the way, Frank Mahovlich was my favourite player growing up watching the Leafs. It was a thrill to meet him years later.

When I was asked for my Top 75 Maple Leaf players - I put Dave Keon as #1 on the list. He was that good.

I'd like to hear that Frank '72 story too. I remember my Dad and I sitting playing cribbage that September near Maidstone Saskatchewn and talking about the series. We both agreed Big Frank would shine, but it turned out Phil Esposito was the star of that series.

I can answer a couple of these. Kent Douglas won the Calder in 1963 but spent at least part of the season in the minors for two of the next four seasons. This could be attributed to the Leafs incredible depth (Al Arbour was pretty much a victim of the same depth) by there was an old story about Douglas doing something verboten and being banished.

Keon was a beauty player but iirc in 1972 at the start of the NHL Soviet series recruitment there were rumors he was going to jump to the WHA. He didn't get invited and most certainly would have been had it not been for that. CH can certainly answer this better than me, but I had always heard that was the beginning of the end. Either way, I've said this before but Keon was the best Leaf from my childhood and my Dad loved Frank Mahovlich so it'd be pretty easy for me to vote for the Big M.

Dorey was a tough defender, I remember him as a real scrapper. Brewer I honestly don't recall that much as a player for Toronto, he didn't play for them after 64-65 until 79-80. I do remember his time in Detroit and St. Louis though and he made the All Star Team for Detroit 1970 (2nd team).

Little before my time in Toronto days, though.

 

[chooch*]

Frank Mahovlich's son Ted wrote a book on his dad and it was considered a 'Best Seller'. It is an interesting story.

I don't know if any of you know this but the Hockey Hall Fame, instead of letting each member of the Stanley Cup winning team take the Cup for a day, (in the absence of any champion) are giving the cup to as many of the older players who won Stanley Cups in the past. The players and their families are so thankful as its a big deal to them. How would you like to have the Cup for a day to take anywhere you want? There are lots of good, heartwarming stories coming out of the visits. And, what is nice to see is that some players are taking the Cup back to their roots - where they grew up and learned the game. Frank Mahovlich is scheduled to take the Cup back to Timmins for his 'day with Stanley'. There are a lot of happy people in these small towns who would not otherwise get a chance to see the cup.
(I don't know if I'm supposed to be telling you this stuff.).

I guess the practice wasnt in place back then and the older players didnt get a chance to take it home. Good stuff.

Regarding Keon, it wasn't just the fact that Ballard wouldn't sign him and he had to go to the WHA, but there was a big problem when Keon wanted to come back to the NHL and play with the Islanders on their first Cup team in 1980. The Leafs blocked that move, Keon missed out on another Stanley Cup and hasn't forgotten what the Leafs did to him.

WOW!!! Keon with the LI LightingCo. The thing is though, Ballard is long gone and in a way he owes the leaf fans as much as anything. Even the Rocket and Guy came back and rejoined the Habs.

By the way, I found Keon to be very friendly and pleasant and he has a great memory for details of hockey in the 60's.

Too much to write about Carl Brewer and his fights with the establishment. The book should be interesting. If you have specific questions, that might be better.

Yes, it was Kent Douglas who won the Calder trophy as a 26 year old and he played as a 5th defenceman when teams back then only used 4. The Leafs traded 5 guys to Springfield for Douglas (including Bill White).

Paul Morris was the announcer at the Leafs games. The Leafs took his job away after they moved to the ACC. I guess they wanted a new look.

Jim Mckenny is hilarious and Lanny is a class guy - one of the best.

I guess my Brewer questions are 1) why he retired originally and play with Team Canada; 2) who helped him in his pension fights 3) what he thought of the Eagle.

 

[ClassicHockey]

I was born in 1951 and I remember watching the Leafs from 1958 onwards. I never missed a game on TV. I'm from a different time and place and I despised the Montreal Canadiens in the mid-60's. Montreal was so powerful in the late 50's and of course were beating the Leafs so I didn't like Montreal because of that. Then Toronto became stronger and started beating Montreal but I didn't start 'despising' the Habs until they got stronger and started taking the Cup back from the Leafs. I really didn't like them because, in my view then, they got all the breaks from the officials and they were a 'dirty' team. You will be surprised at that comment. Claude Larose was one player that I disliked and as I got to know his opponents years later, they confided that Larose was one of the more disliked players in those days.
When Montreal acquired John Ferguson, then things changed. He had to be the most effective enforcer ever. My view is that if the Leafs had signed Fergy and not Montreal, then those cups that Montreal won might have gone to Toronto. Fergy had that much of an impact on his own team and opponents. He could turn the tide with his 'intangibles'. Remember that when I make these comments, its based on originally watching, subsequent research and listening to the players of those times
and watching all those games from the 60's on tape.

We also didn't like the Montreal broadcast crew as we thought they were real 'homers' (outside of Danny Gallivan as we still liked him).

Of course, anyone that is a Montreal fan would have the opposite view. And our views were passionate - there isn't that same passion nowadays.

Back to Frank Mahovlich, he was introverted and his brother Pete was the extrovert. They had completely different personalities.

I understand completely about perception and it depends on where you are from. The Leafs' 'Clutch and grab' was really a Leaf creation of the late 40'a under coach Hap Day. It was convenient to continue to label the 60's Leafs that way. But it was more a factor of Imlach's defensive coaching style. That's the point I was making about the skill level of those Leafs which was high - its just that they were not allowed to use their skills as they could have in Montreal and Chicago.
Jim Pappin had trouble under Imlach and was an underachiever with the Leafs. When he went to Chicago, he burst out with great offensive seasons. He still had the talent as a Leaf but couldn't show it. So, when you compare 'talent', I think you need to take systems into account. Look at it another way. Put Cournoyer and Rousseau and others into Leaf uniforms at the time. I'll bet you wouldn't see their true skill levels.
By the way, when Pappin talked to us after watching some Classic Games, he said that he wished he had a chance to talk to Punch Imlach and thank him. Imlach was on his case for his play and now after watching the films, he knew Imlach was right.

You are correct about Red Kelly. It was mainly to check Beliveau but Kelly also turned Frank Mahovlich into a better offensive player.

I'm too tired to respond to the rest of your good points and the other posts. Later.

I think Chooch meant Kent Douglas a Calder winner who never did much afterwards.

Classic, out of curiosity,were you old enough to watch that Leaf team ? I was born in 55, in Mtl. so naturally I despised that team and everything about them with a fervor that I can still maintain on occasion. A few comments on your posts.

I've heard Frank M. on Mtl. radio numerous times over the last few years when in Mtl. for various events and he sounds like such a different guy than the one we remembered as a player, much more easygoing and comfortable. I heard him with his brother [one of my all time favorites], and Frank sounded like the extroverted brother. It was good to hear him like that.

In doing your research, you must chuckle when you hear people complaining about obstruction in today's game. Wasn't the general perception in the early 60's that Chicago had the flash,Mtl. and Detroit were the good skating teams and the Leafs 'clutched and grabbed' their way to the Cup ? Don't get me wrong, I'll admit to my Montreal Centric pov, but that was the perception, fair or not. Obviously, looking back at the roster, they were a tremendous team and can't be denied their due, but perception is what it is.

Did Imlach not acquire Kelly for 2 reasons, a center for the Big M, and a big guy to line up against Beliveau ? I agree about Keon, he was the heart and soul of that team. Think of the 3 center matchups in those days agaist Mtl. Beliveau/Kelly,Keon/Richard and Pulford/Backstrom. Not too shabby at all.

In your travels have you had occasion to meet or interview Jean Beliveau ? I've heard him say that he always felt the 60's Habs were shortchanged historically in that they were close to having another 5 Cup streak, if not for 67. I know complaining about 67 is ridiculous when measured against the evnts of the following 38 seasons, but that one sticks in my craw. Call me petty, I can take it.

I saw the G6 replay on TSN this winter and was impressed particularly by Allan Stanley on defense. It's easy to speak of Tim Horton from those days because of the obvious legend, but Stanley was quietly effective, possibly moreso.

Toronto's roster to an extent, at least in Imlach's mind was built to punish the faster Mtl. team and had a direct bearing on Sam Pollock bringing Terry Harper,Ted Harris and John Ferguson to the team. Do you think Ferguson started the designated fighter role that we have today ? Fergy was a decent palyer, but would ofeten instigate to change the flow of a game. There were other tough guys but I don't rememebre many with that type of specific role.

 

[ClassicHockey]

I sat with Jean Beliveau for 3 hours helping at an autograph session. Very classy. Of course its rare that anyone says anything bad about him. We talked a lot hockey but I don't think I asked him too many controversial questions.

Regarding the Montreal teams from 1964-65 to 1968-69, I worked on a film shown at the HHOF called 'Dynasties' and we included those Hab teams - they were called the 'Silent Dynasty'. If not for 1967, they would have won 5 Cups in a row to match the record. Of course, I was happy that the Leafs won that cup in 1967 and most Leaf fans will acknowledge that Montreal was the speedier team and that the Leafs got superb goaltending in the games that the Leafs won. But that Leaf team shouldn't be shortchanged. They took it upon themselves to win the games in spite of Punch Imlach and followed their own plan. There were a lot of great players on that Leaf team and they went into Montreal and won 2 games in the Forum. What bothers me is that most Montreal fans never give any credit to the Leafs that year. I mean, there are two teams on the ice and the Leafs had to be a good team to beat Montreal. That's a negative about Montreal fans.

I was talking about my dislike of the Montreal teams before. I didn't care for them up to the early 70's. I remember listening to my transistor radio in bed with the lights out, hearing the play by play of one empty net goal after another going into the Montreal net as Chicago eliminated the Habs from the playoffs in 1970. That was a great moment as finally, the high and mighty Canadiens were knocked down a notch.
In the mid-70's, with the disgusting Philadelphia Flyers ruining the league, I was a Montreal fan because they could beat and stand up to the animals in Philly. After that era, I had no opinion one way or the other as most of the passion was gone.
When Montreal fell on hard times recently and missed the playoffs, I felt sorry that they were down. Then when I'd watch a game on TV from Montreal and the Canadiens were (for a change) winning a game, the Montreal fans would sing that stupid song - that good-bye song - and then I would cheer against Montreal again because to me, that is classless. That's an 80's thing. Forget it. Anther negative for Montreal fans.

Regarding John Ferguson, he was the first to really play the top enforcer role. But he could also play. The goons that came later on were there just to fight.
Fergy was tough but he picked his spots on the ice. If you want to discuss that, we can.

In your travels have you had occasion to meet or interview Jean Beliveau ? I've heard him say that he always felt the 60's Habs were shortchanged historically in that they were close to having another 5 Cup streak, if not for 67. I know complaining about 67 is ridiculous when measured against the evnts of the following 38 seasons, but that one sticks in my craw. Call me petty, I can take it.

I saw the G6 replay on TSN this winter and was impressed particularly by Allan Stanley on defense. It's easy to speak of Tim Horton from those days because of the obvious legend, but Stanley was quietly effective, possibly moreso.

Toronto's roster to an extent, at least in Imlach's mind was built to punish the faster Mtl. team and had a direct bearing on Sam Pollock bringing Terry Harper,Ted Harris and John Ferguson to the team. Do you think Ferguson started the designated fighter role that we have today ? Fergy was a decent palyer, but would ofeten instigate to change the flow of a game. There were other tough guys but I don't rememebre many with that type of specific role.

 

[ClassicHockey]

I have a hard time sometimes believing you because of your inconsistencies. You have some valid points but if you are not from Montreal then how did you see all those games in Montreal and you were there when Keon scored the hat-trick. Were you visiting there just to see the games and leave again?

I don't know, I don't want to get into this with you either and I'll make this comment to you about 'Where were you'?

I was at home watching that game on TV from Toronto. I went to MLG to watch games. But I'll put my hockey knowledge of the 60's against yours anytime.

One of the things I've had to do is watch hundreds of games from the 60's on video. I had to write a historical account of the games using the video with my own replays (rewind), use newspaper accounts from Toronto and Montreal and talk to various historians and (very important) the players themselves. I'm supposed to know the era and that's why I'm involved in the projects that I'm working on.
Unlike, some others, I don't hold a 'homer' view of event that I might have as a kid. Its important to see all sides. I'm only telling you all this because you asked where I was and I took that as a question of what do I know.

I hope that answers your question and we can move on to more interesting topics.

CH, I'm not going to get into this too much with you, but:

a) I'm not from Montreal.


c) In regards to doing "research," well... I was there. I saw those Habs, Hawks and even your beloved Leafs play. I was at the forum in '64 when Keon scored a hat trick to send the Leafs on to the finals. Where were you?

 

[ClassicHockey]

Its only a recent policy that players could have the Cup for a day. A former player from the Habs who won the Cup in the late 50's said that he wasn't even allowed to touch the cup. This is what he wrote:
---------------------------
I and most of the players from our time would never dare put a finger on
the Stanley cup and you may remember Jacques Plante on
his nands and knees searching on the cup for the names
of all the players that won before us. It was at the
team picture after one more win for the
bleu,blanc,rouge.
----------------

Keon is only hurting himself for being so bitter. He did come back to Toronto to appear in a 'Leaf Captains' promotion.

I can answer those questions you had about Brewer but they are not short answers. Like anything with Brewer, its complicated. Ask me in a few days as I've spent too much time tonight answering all these posts.

I guess the practice wasnt in place back then and the older players didnt get a chance to take it home. Good stuff.



WOW!!! Keon with the LI LightingCo. The thing is though, Ballard is long gone and in a way he owes the leaf fans as much as anything. Even the Rocket and Guy came back and rejoined the Habs.



I guess my Brewer questions are 1) why he retired originally and play with Team Canada; 2) who helped him in his pension fights 3) what he thought of the Eagle.

 

[Snap Wilson]

CH, I'll leave you alone after this, but I was born and bred New York, stationed off-and-on in the PQ while I was in the army. You can read my biography when it comes out for the details. Maybe you couldn't tell from your television in Toronto, but not everyone in the Forum that night was a Montreal native.

You still have that Top 75 Leaf list? I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[mcphee]

Classic, you mention Claude Larose, he was a running joke for us in high school. We'd walt until someone stood in between 2 of us and then shove each other over the guy's shoulder. Larose would get fractious after the whistle right after the lineman got there. We all became Larose like tough guys yelling, 'you're lucky Buddy's in the way'. Still, he was a decent player, he fit in well with Fergy and Ralph Backstrom. I know that you hated the Habs in those days because you were just a kid getting bad advice, hanging with the wrong crowd. I'm confident a smart guy like you has finally seen the light. Claude Larose ? How 'bout Stemkowski ?

 

[chooch*]

CH:

did Frank ever get asked to coach? Even in WHA?