The Messenger said:
I dont think Centre ICE brings in all that much revenue... and it would be an inexpensive way to give back to the fans... i think it would be a great idea... exposure, exposure, exposure for the NHL...
- Status
I dont think Centre ICE brings in all that much revenue... and it would be an inexpensive way to give back to the fans... i think it would be a great idea... exposure, exposure, exposure for the NHL...
Mess
Global Moderator
You clearly have not been in a Union work stoppage situations before ..dakota said:
The Owners locked the doors and you want all 700 players just to sit there and do nothing until this is over ..
They can't even picket or anything as they are not on Strike. You are speaking to moral issues as in taking jobs but not UNION violations .. or issues ..
If the NHL dropped the lockout and the Players went on Strike then I would expect the Union to expect the Players to walk picket lines in front of the Arena and not go find work elsewhere ..
The Messenger said:
and do you think they players will?... do you think every player will come back and give up their jobs in Europe when the NHL brings in replacements so they can picket? I doubt it...
Taking other peoples jobs away has not done them any favours in the eyes of many... you can at least admit that cant you?
Mess
Global Moderator
dakota said:
I don't dispute it would be a nice gesture .. but this is a battle over money .. The owners are claiming they are losing money so they need to fix the game ..
They are probably more then welcome to do as you suggest .. but they have to then drop Linkage and the arguement that Revenue is going down as a result of the lockout ..
You don't see the problem with the NHL tying this to the players contracts .. You are saying that Joe Sakic and every player contracts have to go down and the next minute you are giving money away as the reason they need to ..
You mentioned Centre Ice package .. What is the difference between that and saying come to the Arena and watch the game and addmission is free ... ??
The Messenger said:
I was referring to when the replacements come in September... give the Centre Ice away for free... so this would have nothing to do with the CBA negotiations.. its for the replacement season... sorry if i was not clear on my thoughts...
its is funny though how you think they would have to drop linkage if they were going to give away FREE centre ice
I really do not think Centre Ice even brings in 1 million dollars a year? It would be interesting to see though how much it makes the NHL... you see what I mean that it would be minimals cost...to answer your question on the difference between gate admissions FREE... well if Centre Ice only brings in $1 million and gate receipts bring in almost 1 BILLION then there is a 999 million dollar difference... of course I am exagerating but that is the difference... so it is a big difference.. the NHL gets most of its revenue from gate receipts (around 1 BILLION)
Mess
Global Moderator
First you have to define take jobs away ... Each Euro team allows 2 imports ..dakota said:
Forsberg, Naslund, Kovachuk, Kovalev, etc etc are not stealing jobs they are returning to their own countries (If anything they stole jobs themselves from North American Kids when they came over here) ...
All that results from that is the younger players playing in Elite leagues are bumped down one level of play but still playing hockey in their own countries .. That would be the same kind of idea that an NHL team signs an UFA and sends a player to the AHL as a result .. These players are seen as returning Heros not scabs in Europe ..
You are looking at them like that through North American Eyes, they simply went home because the NHL Doors are locked and no Hockey is being played. Forsberg and Naslund may never return and raise their families at home next season and beyond .. Will you always look at them as scabs ??
Players like Lonny Bohonos and Cory Hirsch ..are examples of players that lost jobs .. but they are the 2 import jobs per team .. But when Bohonos and Hirsch went to Europe to play themselves they replaced Bob Smith and Joe Brown etc sending them back to North America. Funny thing though Bohonos and Hirsch lost their NHL jobs originally to Euro's that took them away in a way .. When Tommy Salo and Jonas Hoglund or players like them came here they forced Bohonos and Hirsch to Europe when they lost their NHL jobs
Last edited:
Mess
Global Moderator
I didn't say FREE seasons of addmissions .. I said Free Games .. Maybe Free Fridays .. How many Free games could a team offer that would equal the same as the Centre Ice (1 mil in your guess) .. So instead of your idea they offer free attendence to some limited games .. As you say Owners make the most money by getting people into the seats .. Giving away Satelite packages does not do that ..dakota said:I was referring to when the replacements come in September... give the Centre Ice away for free... so this would have nothing to do with the CBA negotiations.. its for the replacement season... sorry if i was not clear on my thoughts...
its is funny though how you think they would have to drop linkage if they were going to give away FREE centre ice
to answer your question on the difference between gate admissions FREE... well if Centre Ice only brings in $1 million and gate receipts bring in almost 1 BILLION then there is a 999 million dollar difference... of course I am exagerating but that is the difference... so it is a big difference.. the NHL gets most of its revenue from gate receipts (around 1 BILLION)
The Messenger said:
I have noticed this theme in your posts... the NHL (Owners) have repeatedly said they will honour all existing contracts that they have signed... they have never asked for money back from the players (that is until the players offered it)... so I do not know where you are getting your information from...
you have mentioned before about Yashin and Jagr as well, if the PA strikes, then those guys can cross the line and make their existing salary for the 2005-06 season... the owners dont have a problem with that at all...
the catch is they will be in a new CBA that has systemic checks in place to control league spending as a whole. So this is not about the owners trying to "wiggle" out of paying the players who have contracts... its about a new system. The problem for the players is only 288 have contracts for next season... and 112 for 2006-07 season and the number gets smaller and smaller... those contracts are basically vanishing into thin air.. that is real money being flushed down the drain... never coming back.
The Messenger said:
Ok I'll mayke the question easier for you. Do you think every (North American)player will come back and give up their jobs in Europe when the NHL brings in replacements so they can picket?
Mess
Global Moderator
Technically by Union rules in a Strike situation they have to, and the NHLPA may in fact enforse it .. We don't know ... Not sure what the NHLPA can say to Kovalckuk, Jagr, Yashin, Federov etc since they returned home ..dakota said:
Of the 370 players that are playing in Europe only a very small percentage 10-15% maybe are North Americans ..
For Example Take a Team like Modo in the SEL .. Forsberg, Naslund, Henrik and Daniel Sedin, Weinhandl, Salo. Timander, Hedin, etc are all Swedish and returned home .. Dan Hinote and Adrian Aucoin are the two import North Americans that are in question here. That is 10 players ..8 of which are Swedish and returned to the same teams they grew up playing for ..
I don't think you can fairly blame the loss of jobs to parking attendants, Concession stand and Souvenier stand workers in North America losses of jobs by Euro players returning home. Euro's return home all the time when they no longer play in the NHL .
So you are saying are Hinote and Aucoin coming home .. Probably ..
But the players filing their jobs they vacated are IMPORTS likely players like Brandon Reid and Lonny Bonhonos in the first place .. When Joe Thornton comes home he in fact was the player that took Bohonos job in Davos Switzerland, maybe Bohonos will be invited back and get his old job back.. but he is currently playing in Chicago of the AHL so who knows if he will go back .. He might be the NHL replacement player first ....
Last edited:
The Messenger said:
I never said that... I asked you that question. I borrowed from another post but someone mentioned 146 players (40%) are North American who are playing in Europe.
We will have to see but I dont think those guys like Thornton, Nash, Aucoin, etc., will be jumping on a plane and picketing... I hope you are right though...
PecaFan
Registered User
Wetcoaster said:
And how does striking stop a draft? The players are withholding their services, but they're not needed at that time anyway.
The Messenger said:
What? Of course they can picket. You've never seen a picket line where they march around with "LOCKED OUT" signs? Where the hell did you get that from?
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1776/
Mess
Global Moderator
The OLD CBA has expired and the NEW ONE is not yet signed .. any Work Stoppage action prevents a draftPecaFan said:
and may have noticed that Hockey is not played in June during the Summer so it doesn't matter if the player not playing is the problem .. You got legal Issues stopping the process
Yes Picket lines are acts by union employees on strike .. We Do not have this situation in the NHL currently .. We have LOCKOUT Status ..
The Messenger said:
yes that is the status now... but if the NHL gets impasse declared and the players in turn STRIKE... it is my understanding that the league can hold the draft then... thereby drafting Crosby and all younger players into the NHL... they would not therefore be considered SCABS because they are playing under the new imposed CBA.
Van said:
Messenger... have you looked at this thread... I wanted to post it to show you that your were incorrect that only 10-15% of players overseas were North American... does this change your argument? Do you still think they are not taking jobs away over there?
dakota said:
I don't see why not. If some union workers don't show up to operate the cameras, etc you only need a few in management or another cable network or another non union tv group or another location. If the NHL dangles a little money for it, they'll be a stampede trampling the unionists to get their mitts on it. That seems to be a trite issue for the NHL.
Did the players ever walk off the job for the CBC camera technicians or the refs ? Not that I can recall. Another good lesson in two-faced union solidarity for the youngsters coming along into the game ?
Of course, the "scabs" in Europe may not be around to see the draft. Too bad. But at least the kids coming along get to see all this crap first hand from a more objective position. And it maybe a good thing for them to see a sterling example of clinging mindlessly to a philosophy that will never pan out or an example of failing to see the forest for the trees.
An interesting question: if the NHLPA does go on strike on Sep 15th, do they give up their jobs in Europe because they would be taking jobs from their pro hockey union brothers while on strike instead of lockout ? I wonder if that clause is in their European contract beside the ‘out’ clause ?
I sincerely doubt it. The "scab" label will go up many decibels as more apologists retreat with the issue becoming even more clear as their union brothers are left to wander looking for work.
Mess
Global Moderator
I do stand corrected on the percentage and that is great work on part of the researcher ..dakota said:
A couple of things I would say .. The general rule is that most Euro teams have an import rule ..that usually is 2 per team .. So when an NHLer like Joe Thornton goes to Davos he does not take away a Swiss job he takes away Lonny Bohonos exact job in this case ... For the Swiss team its an upgrade at the import position for them .. and because we do not follow it directly but Euro teams do that all the time even without a lockout.. Sure for Bohonos is not great, but it happened to NHLers as well McCabe was not good enough as was replaced in turn as well in his import job. but being replaced by a better player happens is all leagues all the time .. He came back to North America and took an AHL job in Chicago away from another AHLer in turn . If a Swiss player returns home nothing wrong with that .. So of your 40 % (2 per team) are legit anyways and that number would not change Lockout or not just the names..
Also the fact that this is a Lockout makes all the difference to me .. The player isn't in control here the owners Locked them out .. They would be playing right now if the Owners never did that .. The NHLPA would have gone on strike come playoff time and held the owners hostage for the Cup (see MLB and the World Series that never was) ..If you put this context with other Real Life examples .. If Safeway locked out its Union Employees in a labour dispute .. Those employees would not be discouraged by their Union or the public if they now went to find work elsewhere ..They have to feed their families as well .. While the Financial impact in not as drastic to an NHLer in this case .. They still need to be playing at a high level, because to the owners they are only a piece of meat, and quickly replaced with younger, cheaper, better players in the future. So this is job preservation to a point for some, as their NHL lives are very short. If this was a players Strike I would firmly expect the NA players to return home and support the union and do its part..
Sadly maybe even the owners endorse this ... How many times have you heard in an interview that if the NHL started up today 65% of are players have been playing and are in shape and ready to go ... Think about that for a second .. Owners would benefit from this .. In a half season they would hope this would give them a competitive edge over the next owner, as their teams are more likely would have made the playoffs in a shortened season and had a better chance therefore at the Cup .. So a Team like Ottawa for example .. is not paying Chara, Alfredsson, Havlett, Hossa, etc, anything.... but by playing competitively in Europe, the minute they opened the doors, and a CBA was in place the core of their team would be in Mid Season form verses a team like Philly where Roenick, LeClair, Esche, Primeau etc have been sitting around not playing .. Which owner is happier ?? He has the most $$$ to gain by this .. So even Pro-owner positions in this dispute have gains ..
The NHL declares a bargaining impasse and then takes its chances the NLRB will approve some time down the road. Given the difficulties in getting impasse decalrations past the NLRB that is not a good gamble.dakota said:
Even if the NLRB does approve the impasse declaration that does not mean that antitrust law is pre-empted.
The court rulings that allow players to be drafted (they are future union members) and protects the league from antitrust actions are predicated upon the fact that there is a negotiated CBA in place. This is derived form the principle that a union has authority over incoming and future members and can bind them through a previously negotiated CBA. There are no precedents for shielding the league from antitrust suits from drafted players where there is are imposed work rules as result of an impasse declaration.
I would assume that players drafted in such a scenario would file an antitrust suit and seek a decalration that they are free agents.
Trade unions in Canada have already stated they will support the NHLPA. Jim Sinclair of the BC Federation of Labour was very clear on that point recently.dakota said:
Of course they are a union - I thought that myth was put to bed months ago. In NLRA jargon they are a "labor organization" and a union under provincial law as well because they meet the definition (in BC they are termed a "trade union"). if they were not a union the NLRB would not have jurisdiction over the dispute as it clearly does given the past mediation attempts.
The NHLPA was obligated to play because of the terms of the collective agreement compelled them to play. Virtually no unions in Canada have such clauses so you can expect the other unions to honour the picket lines. I am not familar with the US situation on this issue.
Sorry, I must have missed the fact there is a labour dispute in progress in the European leagues. What picket lines did the NHL players cross? That is assuming that there actually are player unions in the various leagues in Europe.
Union memebers do not jeopardize their jobs for honouring a legal picket line unless there is clause in the CBA requiring you to cross as in the NHL/NHLPA CBA. Those clauses are rare.dakota said:
PecaFan said:
Wetcoaster said:
dakota said:
Wetcoaster said:
In the context of the discussion in this thread:
On Sep 15th/04, the old CBA ended. The two sides were at an impasse (technically impasse began ...) in negotiations. The owners locked the NHLPA players out. There is no CBA currently in effect since that time with which to have an NHL draft.
On Sep 15th/05, after a year of failed negotiations/a year at "impasse", the owners may attempt to implement their last proposal to the NHLPA as the "prevailing" CBA. The NHLPA players may well elect to go on strike in response. In response to that strike, the owners may well elect to go with replacement players under their last proposal - the currently "prevailing" CBA.
I’m not clear why the last proposed, "prevailing" CBA would be acceptable as an agreement with the replacement players and scabs but could not be used for the purposes of a draft. Nor am I clear why the legal considerations would be the same under these seemingly two different circumstances (as much as lockout and strike have many legal similarities). In one case, you have no CBA (now) while in the other case, you have an unilaterally imposed CBA (after Sep 15th & strike).
In other words, from this date until Sep 15th/05, there is no CBA and no ability to hire replacement players or have a draft. After the last proposal is implemented as the "previaling" CBA (which would be what one would expect to trigger a strike), replacement players may be hired and I don't see why they cannot have a draft under the rules within the last proposed "prevailing" CBA - regardless of the bad faith/unfair labor/antitrust challenges that may or may not come from the NHLPA.
Last edited:
- Status
Ad
Latest posts
-
Series Talk: ECQF: Carolina Hurricanes vs New York Islanders (CAR Leads 2-0)- Latest: WhiskeyYerTheDevils
-
-
-
