GDT: Quarterfinal - May 17 - Finland vs Switzerland

Ippenator

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Jan 6, 2016
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not suprising for me, switzerland will take over finlands place in the top 6 .
Do you think Finland winning the U18 WJC this year and two years ago, and winning U20 WJC gold twice in the last 5 years really supports your great piece of wisdom? Btw, how many times Sweden won anything in the junior’s during that time? Those generations are the ones that are going to decide which teams are the best teams for the next 2 decades, so maybe you are in for a disappointment after all?
 
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BruinLVGA

CZ Shadow 2 Compact coming my way!
Dec 15, 2013
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One little hfboards-related satisfaction is a certain Russian fan who was being very disrespectful towards Switzerland and now Russia is going home and we're in the semifinals. Feels good.
 

JustaFinnishGuy

Joonas Donskoi avi but not a SEA fan ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Mar 3, 2016
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A good Liiga coach is not necessarily at all a good coach for the national team. Just like a good Liiga player is in most cases not a good player for the national team. He just is not a good coach at the real top level. Be happy for what he was for your Kärpät, but just deal with it that he is just not as great coach as you seem to have thought.
But I've said multiple times over how he's a shit tournament coach. Why is this quote from you warranted?
 

Eternalize

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Nov 8, 2013
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Btw, how many times Sweden won anything in the junior’s during that time? Those generations are the ones that are going to decide which teams are the best teams for the next 2 decades, so maybe you are in for a disappointment after all?
Sweden have never won the J18s and you had more gold medals at the WJC level even prior to Swedens gold in 2012. How many gold medals did all these previous junior accomplishments amount into for you at the senior level? And as for you winning the WJC in 2014, you were lucky. Sweden were clearly the better team that tournament. Really wouldn't put too much thought into junior tournaments.
 

Mestaruus

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Do you think Finland winning the U18 WJC this year and two years ago, and winning U20 WJC gold twice in the last 5 years really supports your great piece of wisdom? Btw, how many times Sweden won anything in the junior’s during that time? Those generations are the ones that are going to decide which teams are the best teams for the next 2 decades, so maybe you are in for a disappointment after all?

Sweden is our "lillebror" in juniors. There's just no way around that fact.
 

Ippenator

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Sweden have never won the J18s and you had more gold medals at the WJC level even prior to Swedens gold in 2012. How many gold medals did all these previous junior accomplishments amount into for you at the senior level? And as for you winning the WJC in 2014, you were lucky. Sweden were clearly the better team that tournament. Really wouldn't put too much thought into junior tournaments.
The oldest of those gold medal team’s players are only in a few years starting to enter their prime, and most of those kids are still pretty far away from their prime. In 5 years there’s going to be many star players from those teams at the adult level. Now we have already three in this team that are stars at adult top level, but not yet even close to their prime yet (Aho, Rantanen and even to some extent Teräväinen), and there’s going to be plenty more each year. Puljujärvi and Borgström will still most probably become very good players in a couple of years, and then there is Laine and Barkov whom are already stars and especially Laine is going to still develop massively.

Then there will only after them be coming the younger ones like Tolvanen, Heiskanen, Vesalainen, Heponiemi, Jokiharju, Juolevi, Välimäki and Vaakanainen. And only after those young guys will the latest U18 champions start entering the stage with Kakko, Kotkaniemi, Nordgren, Kupari, Anttoni Honka etc.

Most of these players are going to be really good players at the adult level at some point and many already are. Sweden might be close but, I’m still pretty sure that in a few years Finland will be ahead with the general top level players. Right now Sweden is still ahead, but their a tad weaker junior years will start to show at least by some margin in a few years. But of course they will still have a chance to win a big men’s tournament practically any year, just like Finland and the other 4 regular top 4 countries.
 
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BullLund

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Dec 28, 2017
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I don't expect to see 80%-90% of those junior players to end up playing for the national team, so bringing them up is kind of meaningless.

Finnish national team will continue to consist of a handful of NHL guys, and then mostly SM league vets.

With Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, even Latvia raising their level of play, the prospect of Finland not seeing a medal from world championships in the coming few years, is very legitimate.

People will start valuing those bronze and silver medals more, now that it is becoming the norm for Finland to be eliminated in quarter-final stages.
 

Ippenator

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Jan 6, 2016
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I don't expect to see 80%-90% of those junior players to end up playing for the national team, so bringing them up is kind of meaningless.

Finnish national team will continue to consist of a handful of NHL guys, and then mostly SM league vets.

With Germany, Denmark, Switzerland, even Latvia raising their level of play, the prospect of Finland not seeing a medal from world championships in the coming few years, is very legitimate.

People will start valuing those bronze and silver medals more, now that it is becoming the norm for Finland to be eliminated in quarter-final stages.
The clearly best players in each junior championship teams are practically locked to become good NHL caliber players. Those that I listed are practically all that kind of players. Well ok, with the last U18 champions there might still be more of question marks really. But I honestly don’t see the players that I listed from either of the U20 champion teams really having complete bust (non NHL career) options.
 

BullLund

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Dec 28, 2017
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The clearly best players in each junior championships teams are practically locked to become good NHL caliber players. Those that I listed are practically all that kind of players. Well ok, with the last U18 champions there might still be more of question marks really. But I honestly don’t see the players that I listed from either of the U20 champion teams really having complete bust (non NHL career) options.

That's what I'm saying though. You can expect at best 10-20% of the NHL players, to volunteer to play for national hockey team. That's how it has always been. Most will cite injuries or training camps in order to decline the invitation.

Most of the players will come from SM league. And the strategy that Marjamäki used in this tournament, catered around the NHL players. The SM league players were incapable of being part of that strategy.

That all led to the NHL players being gassed and overplayed while the SM league players were under-utilized, and often committed mistakes because of trying to keep up with a "fast game", even though they weren't particularly fast or talented.

The fact is that the Finnish national team will always rely on SM league players for the most part, to make up a world championship team. So you've got to take those players capabilities into account. Or continue to commit the same mistakes that were made in this tournament.

Even in NHL, not all 4 lines are expected to play a fast-paced game. The bottom 6 usually have a purpose of slowing down the play, and decreasing chances to score for the opposite team. Sometimes you match bottom 6 players against top 6 players to neutralize them. Finland could've done that if we had a solidly built bottom 6. It's not boring hockey, it's just smart hockey.
 
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Eternalize

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The oldest of those gold medal team’s players are only in a few years starting to enter their prime, and most of those kids are still pretty far away from their prime. In 5 years there’s going to be many star players from those teams at the adult level. Now we have already three in this team that are stars at adult top level, but not yet even close to their prime yet (Aho, Rantanen and even to some extent Teräväinen), and there’s going to be plenty more each year. Puljujärvi and Borgström will still most probably become very good players in a couple of years, and then there is Laine and Barkov whom are already stars and especially Laine is going to still develop massively.

Then there will only after them be coming the younger ones like Tolvanen, Heiskanen, Vesalainen, Heponiemi, Jokiharju, Juolevi, Välimäki and Vaakanainen. And only after those young guys will the latest U18 champions start entering the stage with Kakko, Kotkaniemi, Nordgren, Kupari, Anttoni Honka etc.

Most of these players are going to be really good players at the adult level at some point and many already are. Sweden might be close but, I’m still pretty sure that in a few years Finland will be ahead with the general top level players. Right now Sweden is still ahead, but their a tad weaker junior years will start to show at least by some margin in a few years. But of course they will still have a chance to win a big men’s tournament practically any year, just like Finland and the other 4 regular top 4 countries.
This is all just speculation and a lot of wishful thinking. Way too early to make assumptions that all of these guys will be superstars or even good NHLers. At best, probably half of the players you mention in your 2nd column will be good or great NHLers. You're extremely optimistic if you think all of these guys are gonna make it. Obviously there's some really good names that you mentioned.

As for Finland having more success than Sweden at the junior stage, it seems very much like you're boom or bust at least at the WJC level. You either win it or you suck completely. There's no middleground. You haven't won a single medal outside of gold the last 10 years. You can hardly complain about your luck of maximizing gold medals, having pretty much won as many gold medals as silver/bronze. Meanwhile, Sweden are consistently good every year (10 years without a loss in Group Stages) but usually can't put it together when it matters. It's either 2nd, 3rd or 4th. Isn't really a matter of not having the talent, if it was, they wouldn't make it as far every year. Could've easily have won it last time when they had a different mentality compared to previous teams. But Sweden aren't really known for their luck at the junior stage.
 
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Jarey Curry

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May 2, 2015
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I am kinda shocked cause team Switzerland should not win a playoff game against team Finland, we were that tough in this tournament against top teams. However they did it with fantastic play and although I'm shocked at how low urgency we played with, I'm happy for team Switzerland and wish that they play even better than this against team Canada
 

Peiskos

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Jan 4, 2018
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The oldest of those gold medal team’s players are only in a few years starting to enter their prime, and most of those kids are still pretty far away from their prime. In 5 years there’s going to be many star players from those teams at the adult level. Now we have already three in this team that are stars at adult top level, but not yet even close to their prime yet (Aho, Rantanen and even to some extent Teräväinen), and there’s going to be plenty more each year. Puljujärvi and Borgström will still most probably become very good players in a couple of years, and then there is Laine and Barkov whom are already stars and especially Laine is going to still develop massively.

Then there will only after them be coming the younger ones like Tolvanen, Heiskanen, Vesalainen, Heponiemi, Jokiharju, Juolevi, Välimäki and Vaakanainen. And only after those young guys will the latest U18 champions start entering the stage with Kakko, Kotkaniemi, Nordgren, Kupari, Anttoni Honka etc.

Most of these players are going to be really good players at the adult level at some point and many already are. Sweden might be close but, I’m still pretty sure that in a few years Finland will be ahead with the general top level players. Right now Sweden is still ahead, but their a tad weaker junior years will start to show at least by some margin in a few years. But of course they will still have a chance to win a big men’s tournament practically any year, just like Finland and the other 4 regular top 4 countries.

I agree with Finland being better than Sweden at the U20 level these days but with regards to the IIHF U18 its wise to note that not every country can send its best to that tournament, particularly Canada because our junior leagues have not concluded their seasons and thus we cannot release our best u-18 players so I wouldn't take the IIHF U18 results too seriously. Canada only sends its best U18 players to the Ivan Hlinka, now known as the Hlinka Gretzky Cup. Hlinka Gretzky Cup - Wikipedia
 
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maximafinogenov7

Registered User
May 10, 2018
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lol, no.

We have overtaken Slovakia for #7 which is a huge success and the best you could hope for, but here it ends.

In a good year, we can match the Czech Rep. I think, but the top 5 nations will always be favourites against Switzerland.

If you wanna really overtake Slovakia, you have to prove it also in World Juniors like them in 2015.
 

swissexpert

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Sep 21, 2009
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If you wanna really overtake Slovakia, you have to prove it also in World Juniors like them in 2015.
No.
Take a look at the last 5 years and you'll see which direction this is going in.

We beat them 4 times in a row, more success in WC, Olympics, more NHL players, better NHL player, more and higher draft picks...
Sorry, but a single Junior tourney 3 years ago doesn't make Slovakia a better hockey nation.
 
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albator71

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Jan 12, 2010
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Swiss hockey has improve so much in the last 10 years, their national league is one of the best league in europe. they are producing some very good hockey players there. I really believe that the time where Switzerland was seen as the underdog is over now. now they can compete with the top nations in the world and win. Canada better bring their A game versus them because otherwise they will lose. Switzerland has as much chances to win as canada does.
 
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jonas2244

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Jan 4, 2010
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You shouldn't forget that Switzerland is icing a team that is close to their best possible team. We're really missing Hischier and Sven Bärtschi, maybe Ambühl, Suter and one defender (Sbisa, Geering, Furrer). The rest is not better as the player we're having here.

So, it's true, Switzerland has progressed, we have more and better NHL-players that we ever had and the depth is (compared to the other nations behind the top-6) pretty good. But we're still behind all those 6 teams in every aspect of the game. We can beat them more often then 10 years ago but we're still never a favorite. And we need to work hard to stay there (and maybe try to close the gap further) because the others aren't sleeping as well.
 

DaJackal

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Aug 3, 2015
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Such a shame that our team couldn't perform at the most critical moment.

Kudos to Switzerland, though. When Aho's line wasn't on ice the Swiss team constantly looked like the better team and it wasn't even close. Well deserved. If we had to lose at this point, I much rather see us losing to an underdog than USA/Canada/Sweden/Russia.
 
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Ippenator

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This is all just speculation and a lot of wishful thinking. Way too early to make assumptions that all of these guys will be superstars or even good NHLers. At best, probably half of the players you mention in your 2nd column will be good or great NHLers. You're extremely optimistic if you think all of these guys are gonna make it. Obviously there's some really good names that you mentioned.

As for Finland having more success than Sweden at the junior stage, it seems very much like you're boom or bust at least at the WJC level. You either win it or you suck completely. There's no middleground. You haven't won a single medal outside of gold the last 10 years. You can hardly complain about your luck of maximizing gold medals, having pretty much won as many gold medals as silver/bronze. Meanwhile, Sweden are consistently good every year (10 years without a loss in Group Stages) but usually can't put it together when it matters. It's either 2nd, 3rd or 4th. Isn't really a matter of not having the talent, if it was, they wouldn't make it as far every year. Could've easily have won it last time when they had a different mentality compared to previous teams. But Sweden aren't really known for their luck at the junior stage.
One thing that you don’t seem to realize is that Finland has had for the men’s team during the last two years the absolutely worst coach we have ever had during the modern hockey era. So you can’t make too much realistic estimations of the level of our best hockey at the moment from how the national team is doing.

When I knew two years ago that Marjamäki will be the next coach I was already absolutely sure that things will be going in the way as they have gone for the last two years. Everything went in fact picture perfectly as I had visioned already then. A disaster of a coach in motivating and bringing the much needed leadership to the young teams that he was now coaching.

The development of Finnish hockey at men’s level could be though seen very well through how many players from our last two gold winning U20 teams have already become good NHL’rs and some more are at least close to being there already.

Laine, Aho, Rantanen, Teräväinen, Lindell, Ristolainen, Kapanen, Lehkonen, Saros are all already very good or good NHL’rs. And close there are Puljujärvi, Niku (defenceman of the year in AHL), Honka, Juolevi, Saarela and Husso, maybe even Hintz. Also just now from those gold medal teams have Saku Mäenalanen and Kaapo Kähkönen signed NHL deals. So I don’t really see many of them after all failing at least so far.
 
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Tomas W

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Oct 23, 2007
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Not too suprised, its not the first time Switzerland "shock" the hockey world. And Finland gave been very inconsisitant in the round robin.
 

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