Q players have hot start!

[Jason MacIsaac]

Do you honestly believe that had the Team Canada coach been from the Q that Team Canada's defense would be significantly different ??

Why do you feel the Q is so discriminted against ??

Nobody complains when the Q turns out Team Canada's goalies year after year ..

Why is it hard to accept that other leagues could turn out players as well .. ???

You are clearly in this thread to troll. If you don't agree with the threads topics or views then I suggest you leave before it gets shut down for a stupid reason. This topic is not hurting anyone. All it suggests is that the players from the QMJHL are off to a decent start. There would be no problem if this was an article on the front page rather then a thread.

 

[MontrealSF]

I fail to see all of your questions in relation with what I said.

 

[Sammy*]

Honestly, I would have like seeing the WHL play against Russia's #1 goaltender and not their backup. But hey, if you think 2 meaningless wins over some Russian players makes the WHL cristal clear best junior league in the country, good for you.

I think the number of players who have been drafted over the last 20 years certainly bears out which league produces the greatest/least amount of top end talent. That however wasnt the point of the post. The point was, I get tired of many Q supporters constantly whining about how their league constantly gets the unjust shaft, as I am sure that was basically the point of the initial post. The fact that the Q players have scored well in the first few games (or for that matter, the whole tourney) means dick, just as the fact that Team Canada has lost with Q goalies over the last # of years proves dick in terms of the quality of goaltending in the Q.

 

[Sammy*]

You are clearly in this thread to troll. If you don't agree with the threads topics or views then I suggest you leave before it gets shut down for a stupid reason. This topic is not hurting anyone. All it suggests is that the players from the QMJHL are off to a decent start. There would be no problem if this was an article on the front page rather then a thread.

With respect, I think the initial post was the definition of "trolling". I think the insinuation is rather obvious.

 

[Mess]

I fail to see all of your questions in relation with what I said.

As a writer for HF .. I am just asking you your opinion on the subject as an informed person ..

That's all ..

Not necessarily to what you said directly only ??

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

With respect, I think the initial post was the definition of "trolling". I think the insinuation is rather obvious.

Did he edit the post? If not then I don't see how it can be considered trolling. From my perspective it looks as if his intent is only to show how players in the QMJHL are doing in the tournament. It doesn't seem as if he is rubbing it in verses the WHL/OHL since he included european players who are clearly not from the atlantic provinces or Quebec.

 

[Mess]

Did he edit the post? If not then I don't see how it can be considered trolling. From my perspective it looks as if his intent is only to show how players in the QMJHL are doing in the tournament. It doesn't seem as if he is rubbing it in verses the WHL/OHL since he included european players who are clearly not from the atlantic provinces or Quebec.

Then look a few posts down #9 from his original one and see what he posted and why ??

and I don't believe you can draw any other conclusion than the one you say he is not intending.

 

[MontrealSF]

Oh okay.

Do you honestly believe that had the Team Canada coach been from the Q that Team Canada's defense would be significantly different ??

-- No. Quebec has problems producing defensemen.

Why do you feel the Q is so discriminted against ??

I don't feel there's discrimination. But Brent Sutter had already set his mind on some players. What I'm saying is that some should have been invited to try and make the team. But they weren't. Tough luck for them, that's all.


Why is it hard to accept that other leagues could turn out players as well .. ???

-- Of course other leagues turn out good players. Don't see the problem there.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Let's see there have been at least a 100 "relevant" posts on this board about
how the Q is the weakest league in the CHL , mostly from westerners.

Is this is the post you are refering to? I am not agreeing with this statement entirely but there were many cases where posters from western canada and USA have put large emphasis on the Russia/QMJHL in an entirely unfair way. Any intelligent hockey fan will tell you at the moment the WHL is the strongest league in the CHL. To say that gap is a large amount based on those games is not a fair assesment. The QMJHL didn't pick the best goaltenders (Houle and Ellis), did not have their best players (Crosby and Picard), and had to play verses Russia's top two players (Radulov and Khudobin) while the OHL and WHL didn't. Those three factors played a large part in the difference.

 

[Anfernic]

Oh okay.

Do you honestly believe that had the Team Canada coach been from the Q that Team Canada's defense would be significantly different ??

-- No. Quebec has problems producing defensemen.

Why do you feel the Q is so discriminted against ??

I don't feel there's discrimination. But Brent Sutter had already set his mind on some players. What I'm saying is that some should have been invited to try and make the team. But they weren't. Tough luck for them, that's all.


Why is it hard to accept that other leagues could turn out players as well .. ???

-- Of course other leagues turn out good players. Don't see the problem there.

Exact, we don't think that we have better defenceman than in the dub. And it's true this year the dub deserve to have more player than us in this team.

However I WILL REPEAT FOR SOME WHO DON'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND, GUYS LIKE POULIOT, BERNIER, PICARD & BOURRET just these 4 should at least be invited to the camp.

We don't want the whole team to be from the Q, just that our good players (who are also Canadian) get some consideration (before guys like Andrew Ladd)

 

[Mess]

Oh okay.

Do you honestly believe that had the Team Canada coach been from the Q that Team Canada's defense would be significantly different ??

-- No. Quebec has problems producing defensemen..

That by its own admission goes towards the proving that the other leagues may be stronger by nature .. The Q will continue to face that Stereotype of being a free wheeling Offense first league until the Q can address that exact problem you mentioned .. The implied discrimination may be exactly that .. That Bernier results are against players and in a league that are not considered the strongest to play against .. So in the eyes of evaluators 30 goals by Bernier is not equal to 30 goals by Fehr..

Why do you feel the Q is so discriminted against ??

I don't feel there's discrimination. But Brent Sutter had already set his mind on some players. What I'm saying is that some should have been invited to try and make the team. But they weren't. Tough luck for them, that's all..

That's fine, but that would be normal for anyone to do what Sutter did surround himself with players he was most familiar with, for a short tourney.. He in all honesty does not know the other leagues very well ..so you can hardly blame him .. Team Canada has not won gold in years and so Brent Sutter wanted to switch it up and have a much smaller camp and invited less players ..to make for a tighter camp.. He saw the other players at the Summer camp and the Russian Challenge etc. So he just chose what he new best .. He knows exactly what he will get from Fraser, he could not be so sure with a Q energy checker, and vice versa Fraser knows Sutters systems exactly, a Q player in a different style league would be at a big disadvantage to start with, even is he was a better player ..

 

[Sammy*]

Did he edit the post? If not then I don't see how it can be considered trolling. From my perspective it looks as if his intent is only to show how players in the QMJHL are doing in the tournament. It doesn't seem as if he is rubbing it in verses the WHL/OHL since he included european players who are clearly not from the atlantic provinces or Quebec.

Well, only he knows for sure. But I took it in the context with all the whining that took place in initially due to the lack of Q representation & his post was intended to show that the Q indeed get the shaft.
If I took it wrong (& only he knows) , mea culpa.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Well, only he knows for sure. But I took it in the context with all the whining that took place in initially due to the lack of Q representation & his post was intended to show that the Q indeed get the shaft.
If I took it wrong (& only he knows) , mea culpa.

I thought of that for a second but when he posted Vrana and Zagrapan's statistics that eliminates those thoughts unless he thinks they are Canadian?

 

[MontrealSF]

That by its own admission goes towards the proving that the other leagues may be stronger by nature .. The Q will continue to face that Stereotype of being a free wheeling Offense first league until the Q can address that exact problem you mentioned .. The implied discrimination may be exactly that .. That Bernier results are against players and in a league that are not considered the strongest to play against .. So in the eyes of evaluators 30 goals by Bernier is not equal to 30 goals by Fehr..



That's fine, but that would be normal for anyone to do what Sutter did surround himself with players he was most familiar with, for a short tourney.. He in all honesty does not know the other leagues very well ..so you can hardly blame him .. Team Canada has not won gold in years and so Brent Sutter wanted to switch it up and have a much smaller camp and invited less players ..to make for a tighter camp.. He saw the other players at the Summer camp and the Russian Challenge etc. So he just chose what he new best .. He knows exactly what he will get from Fraser, he could not be so sure with a Q energy checker, and vice versa Fraser knows Sutters systems exactly, a Q player in a different style league would be at a big disadvantage to start with, even is he was a better player ..

We could take it the other way.

Bernier scored 30 goals in a league known for having the best goaltenders.

Fehr scored 30 goals in a league known for mediocre goaltenders.



Don't you think ?

 

[Mess]

Is this is the post you are refering to? I am not agreeing with this statement entirely but there were many cases where posters from western canada and USA have put large emphasis on the Russia/QMJHL in an entirely unfair way. Any intelligent hockey fan will tell you at the moment the WHL is the strongest league in the CHL. To say that gap is a large amount based on those games is not a fair assesment. The QMJHL didn't pick the best goaltenders (Houle and Ellis), did not have their best players (Crosby and Picard), and had to play verses Russia's top two players (Radulov and Khudobin) while the OHL and WHL didn't. Those three factors played a large part in the difference.

I agree .. and in fact Sutter and Blair Mackasey went on and stated that Russian Challenge games meant very little in the selection of the team and the camp, and I think strong performances by players in those games may have lead fans to believe that a certain player had increased his chances of representing Team Canada. When in fact it was just a tune up as most of the plaer selections had already been made and with all the returnees to boot the openings were few are far between to start with ..

We really are only realistically talking about Perry, Ladd, MacArthur, Fraser as non-returning forwards , Weber and Syvret on D and the goalies.. Thats all .. and then if you consider the checking energy roles that MacArthur and Fraser play are not suited for Bernier and Picard or Fehr or Bolland etc .. and I doubt anyone was going to take Weber spot no matter how many players were invited .. so it really boils down to so few players anyways ..

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

I agree .. and in fact Sutter and Blair Mackasey went on and stated that Russian Challenge games meant very little in the selection of the team and the camp, and I think strong performances by players in those games may have lead fans to believe that a certain player had increased his chances of representing Team Canada. When in fact it was just a tune up as most of the plaer selections had already been made and with all the returnees to boot the openings were few are far between to start with ..

We really are only realistically talking about Perry, Ladd, MacArthur, Fraser as non-returning forwards , Weber and Syvret on D and the goalies.. Thats all .. and then if you consider the checking energy roles that MacArthur and Fraser play are not suited for Bernier and Picard or Fehr or Bolland etc .. and I doubt anyone was going to take Weber spot no matter how many players were invited .. so it really boils down to so few players anyways ..

I considered Weber a lock going into the camp actually. He just reminds me of Sutton for Atlanta with more mobility. Weber will be a force in Nashville with Sutter.

 

[MontrealSF]

You're dead on. Again, I'm not disputing the final team, I'm disputing the fact that didn't gave a bit of a chance to some of the best Q players that deserved a shot. I do think Bernier could have perfectly play a gritty energy role. Go Canada ! (And Belarus.)

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

You're dead on. Again, I'm not disputing the final team, I'm disputing the fact that didn't gave a bit of a chance to some of the best Q players that deserved a shot. I do think Bernier could have perfectly play a gritty energy role. Go Canada ! (And Belarus.)

I disagree there. I feel Bernier's only spot on the team would have been with Carter and Getzlaf. Bernier doesn't have the speed or consistancy to play on an energy line. I think Suter had Ladd penciled in on that line for a long time though since Ladd had a poor camp and still made the team.

 

[Sammy*]

I thought of that for a second but when he posted Vrana and Zagrapan's statistics that eliminates those thoughts unless he thinks they are Canadian?

I took him adding in Vrana and Zagrapan's statistics to help show that the Q is a very strong league, which he would then use to somehow extrapolate that more Q players should have been picked.
I dunno, but its my last word on the subject.

 

[MontrealSF]

I disagree there. I feel Bernier's only spot on the team would have been with Carter and Getzlaf. Bernier doesn't have the speed or consistancy to play on an energy line. I think Suter had Ladd penciled in on that line for a long time though since Ladd had a poor camp and still made the team.

You've seen him a lot more than myself. I won't dispute that

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

You've seen him a lot more than myself. I won't dispute that

Well actually I may not have. This year I only seen Bernier twice live, Moncton may have been in your town more then that.

 

[Mess]

We could take it the other way.

Bernier scored 30 goals in a league known for having the best goaltenders.

Fehr scored 30 goals in a league known for mediocre goaltenders.



Don't you think ?

Sure ..

But Q goalies in a way develop better and faster by the numerous shots they face and rebounds they need to handle .. In the Dub for instance many games you will see fewer shots than 30 in a game .. Dub goalies are recording Shutouts stopping just 16-18 shots some games ... The 4 invited WHL goalies had many shutouts combined in the first quarter of the season alone .. The speaks volumes that Fehr's 30 goals are perceived tougher to come by than Bernier's by nature .. The goalie can only stop so much .. Even goalies like MA Fluery never had good averages in the Q neither did Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy before them ... Winning records yes .. good stats not necessarily ..

Defense wins championships and defensemen are clearly a big part of that .. just like in the NHL the Strong teams have the Lidstrom's and Blake's and Foote's and Steven's & Niedermayer's & Pronger's and as such it is harder to score against regardless of the goalie sometimes ..

 

[Mess]

I disagree there. I feel Bernier's only spot on the team would have been with Carter and Getzlaf. Bernier doesn't have the speed or consistancy to play on an energy line. I think Suter had Ladd penciled in on that line for a long time though since Ladd had a poor camp and still made the team.

I think that is bang on .. I an no fan of Ladd in anyway .. but Ladd being a LW had an advantage over Bernier being a RW and Ladd biggest advantage came by being a regular linemate and teammate of Getzlaf and combined with Carter ..was a better fit.

I believe Bernier was in direct competition with Perry and Fehr for the last RW spot on the team .. to play with Bergeron and Crosby in fact .. and then we find out he had Jeremy Colliton ticketed for that line and the winner of that RW battle the 13 forward spot ..

There is no way I will believe that Bernier could do what Fraser-Dixon-MacArthur are doing or would be expected to do that role.

 

[Sammy*]

I
There is no way I will believe that Bernier could do what Fraser-Dixon-MacArthur are doing or would be expected to do that role.

Agreed, but imo he sure is a way, way better pro prospect.

 

[Mess]

Agreed, but imo he sure is a way, way better pro prospect.

Absolutely no question here .. I would say the same for Eric Fehr that got cut as well .. but each successful team needs role players and not just all stars ..

Jerome Iginla and Todd Bertuzzi do not do what John Madden and Kris Draper do .. and this is the same scenario here ...

That brings us full circle in this thread ... No one is arguing that the Q has good players like Bernier .. but the intention of the thread starter was based a complete different notion .. and as you pointed out as I tried unsuccessfully myself the Success of Vrana and Zagrapan really have no part of proving or disproving that Steve Bernier is a good player and prospect or that the QMJHL is stronger than the others..