Helene St. James Prices likely too high; Wings may well decide to go with what they've got

[Fugu]

Oh, mediocrity. That lovely word. Wings at their worst have been the 7th best playoff team during the last 4 years.

...

In my opinion, mediocre teams are those teams from 9th to 16th position.

That's not the question.

Do --> you <-- think they can improve this team given the FA and trade markets, their cap position and stock of assets?

THAT is what I find frustrating. Holland was very aggressive once upon a time, but no more. He just seems to sit back and wait. And then not really do much beyond saying, "We like our team."

 

[SportsballChic]

I don't think it's bad to have up to 60% of your cap tied up in 5 players. In fact, I think if you looked the teams that have done so have by and large been the most successful since the previous lockout to this one.

The model, or at least the model I think works now goes something like this:

Lock up your core at any cost, you're probably going to draft most of these 5 guys but you may well have to acquire 1 or 2 through trade/fa unless you suck for 5 years in a row (Pittsburgh, soon to be Edmonton, the Islanders if they don't **** it up, etc).

Surround that core primarily with cheap young talent and augment at every trade deadline in which you feel you're one of the top 8 teams.

Post season, dump as many of the support players as necessary to keep core together, reload with youth. If one of the core players is slipping and a prospect has grown; dump the core player and promote the prospect.

Yes you rely on someone buying your garbage, or cap compliance buyouts but every single time *something* has saved these teams. It's us that looks stupid for playing it so "smart".

I mean I'm just spitballing; but this seems to be the plan the "elite" teams are on. While we seem to be on the plan of keeping everyone forever and just spreading the money thinner and thinner over a less talented group of players.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

That's not the question.

Do --> you <-- think they can improve this team given the FA and trade markets, their cap position and stock of assets?

THAT is what I find frustrating. Holland was very aggressive once upon a time, but no more. He just seems to sit back and wait. And then not really do much beyond saying, "We like our team."

No. They aren't going to push this team over the edge via FA or Trade. They may make it better, but not much better than last year. The few good FAs are going to get payed way more than they should be and way longer than they should be. Holland should be rightfully hung if he did something stupid like overpaying them. They would also hijack spots from the young ones. As the team is set up now, we can add more rookies next year. Do you really want to trade pieces on our farm system? I don't. I like it the way it is.


Everything else on the market sucks or are depth players of which we have an abundance of.

 

[jaster]

I see a lot of teams taking advantage of something called an amnesty buy-out, assuming the problem actually will be cap space.

Yeah, Wings just used one on CC, which I accounted for in the $10.7M of cap space estimate As I understand it, they can't use anymore this offseason though, based on the waiver requirement/buyout deadline.

 

[Mrazek]

i am so sick of this we love our team and do no trades or signings attitude.
the wings are so boring if datsyuk doesnt show up. even nashville is more entertaining.
the league is using detroit as a garbage can for players nobody else wants and holland doesnt even wanna change this.
this will be the third season in a row i will not visit a single game in the arena. no need to pay a single dollar to watch cleary, bertuzzi and abdelkader in a fake top 6.
ken holland, do you know where you can stick this team?

He had the chance to make some moves last summer and blew it by signing a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners. How do you not trade Filppula and get something for him? Especially when we knew his asking price was too high. You can't tell me there was no takers at the deadline. Why not offer Filppula + Tatar/Pick to the Ducks for Bobby Ryan? Same with Ian White, teams were looking for defense man and we just sit the guy and let him walk for absolutely nothing.

 

[Fugu]

WHAT MOVES WERE THERE FOR HOLLAND TO MAKE?! Give me a list of players and trades and every year they could have occured. All of them. If you say "He should have resigned," I will slap you. I doubt you will come up with a significant list of anything.

Honey, if we have a slapping contest here, I guarantee you will lose. (Yes, I have the nuclear weapons. Sorry.)


Anyway, I see Heaton has made my point for me, below. I don't know every player that was available as a trade or FA, and the price. I do know he didn't want to give up a first round pick THIS year for JBo but gave one up for Quincey last year. Now, everyone here knows I was an ardent Q supporter, but I can't defend that type of thinking.

So, your point of contention is that because none of us may have intimate knowledge of possible moves that could've happened, but didn't, we should just accept the fact that Holland's hands were and are tied and is incapable of making moves because it's impossible?

If it is impossible for Holland to improve the team, what are we doing here?

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Honey, if we have a slapping contest here, I guarantee you will lose. (Yes, I have the nuclear weapons. Sorry.)


Anyway, I see Heaton has made my point for me, below. I don't know every player that was available as a trade or FA, and the price. I do know he didn't want to give up a first round pick THIS year for JBo but gave one up for Quincey last year. Now, everyone here knows I was an ardent Q supporter, but I can't defend that type of thinking.

Quincey hasn't been a bad Dman. The hate is overblown. Sure, he along with everyone else was sheltered. He did a darn good job with the sheltered minutes.

But, for the umpteenth millionth time, When we gave up that first, we were in the middle of a president's trophy run, and were "Going for it." It wasn't a stupid decision at the time. No one could have predicted all the freak injuries that would have followed. And besides, all TB got was a GOALIE IN THE FIRST ROUND.

Don't bring up JayBow. JayBow would likely have cost us Mrazek and Anthony Mantha. You don't want to give up Mrazek or Mantha, do you? No? I thought so. Giving up a first and Petr Mrazek this year would have been stupid. I would have personally gone to Holland's office and thrown a chair through his window.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The Wings were fortunate to draft Z and Datsyuk. Without these guys, we probably fall to earth nearly as hard as Colorado and Dallas. The Wings haven't drafted/developed the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and that's why it's hard to imagine the Wings remaining a top team.

Because D and Z developed on the slower side...by the time they were leading this team--we got three good runs out of their leadership.

Consider how old Kane and Toews are with their two cups already in their backpockets...

These last 4 years -- probably only 2 or 3 really, were our last likely chances to win D-Z leading the charge, but Holland -- rather mysteriously - didn't make the kinds of moves that were required to make victory even remotely possible.

And now here were are-- Datsyuk about to be 35....
Consider how established Z and Datsyuk already were when Yzerman was 35,

 

[Fugu]

Yeah, Wings just used one on CC, which I accounted for in the $10.7M of cap space estimate As I understand it, they can't use anymore this offseason though, based on the waiver requirement/buyout deadline.

Each team has two amnesty buy-outs. They can also make ordinary buy-outs during the appropriate periods (right before FA season, and the again after the arb rulings come in), but these would count against the cap at 2/3ds value divided over 2x term.

Buying out CC is peanuts.

 

[Syckle78]

The Wings were fortunate to draft Z and Datsyuk. Without these guys, we probably fall to earth nearly as hard as Colorado and Dallas. The Wings haven't drafted/developed the next Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and that's why it's hard to imagine the Wings remaining a top team.

Because D and Z developed on the slower side...by the time they were leading this team--we got three good runs out of their leadership.

Consider how old Kane and Toews are with their two cups already in their backpockets...

These last 4 years -- probably only 2 or 3 really, were our last likely chances to win D-Z leading the charge, but Holland -- rather mysteriously - didn't make the kinds of moves that were required to make victory even remotely possible.

And now here were are-- Datsyuk about to be 35....
Consider how established Z and Datsyuk already were when Yzerman was 35,

It's all part of a long term master plan that is going to come together in 2-3 years. You just don't have the patience to see it.

 

[Fugu]

MOD NOTE:

Gentlemen (because the ladies aren't the problem here)...

Attack the post-- not each other. These little jabs need to stop. Don't make me come out of my summer sabbatical to deal with this myself.

 

[Vladdy84]

It's all part of a long term master plan that is going to come together in 2-3 years. You just don't have the patience to see it.

of course! Joe D and Kenny Holland have the master plan to solve are issues with our teams and the city of Detroit. Right size baby!

 

[sully6one]

I think the reason we won't get any top 6 player or top 4 defensemen in FA ever is because they want too long of term. This never seemed to be a problem. All three guy 30+ want 4-7 year deals. It's stupid and I don't want Holland biting on most of those anyways. Then they also want an outrageous amount per term so they'll go to the stupid team that pays them that and regrets it in 3 years.

 

[Syckle78]

of course! Joe D and Kenny Holland have the master plan to solve are issues with our teams and the city of Detroit. Right size baby!

If only the Wings could if drafted Darko.

 

[jaster]

Each team has two amnesty buy-outs. They can also make ordinary buy-outs during the appropriate periods (right before FA season, and the again after the arb rulings come in), but these would count against the cap at 2/3ds value divided over 2x term.

Right, but my point was that we are past the deadline for amnesty buyouts. CC was our only buyout. We won't be buying anyone else out this offseason.

Buying out CC is peanuts.

CC was a $2.5M cap hit. I don't think that's peanuts.

 

[Mrazek]

I think the reason we won't get any top 6 player or top 4 defensemen in FA ever is because they want too long of term. This never seemed to be a problem. All three guy 30+ want 4-7 year deals. It's stupid and I don't want Holland biting on most of those anyways. Then they also want an outrageous amount per term so they'll go to the stupid team that pays them that and regrets it in 3 years.

We should have taken the risk with Suter. Lidstrom retired and that was our biggest need by a mile. I would have paid him what ever he wanted since we knew there was gonna be a lockout. If things got tight, do what the Flyers just did with Bryzgalov. That was the last chance we'll have at ever signing a top pair FA d-man.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

We definitely disagree here....I thought what Shero did was laughable and set the team back a few years

Laughable that he went for the cup?
He gave up a lot to go for the cup -- but guess what, the Penguins are still a force in the NHL.

I expect both the Pens and Hawks to fall back a little bit. But with their core locked up, they'll be bonafide serious contenders again in 2-3 years

 

[Amyklas]

He had the chance to make some moves last summer and blew it by signing a bunch of 3rd and 4th liners. How do you not trade Filppula and get something for him? Especially when we knew his asking price was too high. You can't tell me there was no takers at the deadline. Why not offer Filppula + Tatar/Pick to the Ducks for Bobby Ryan? Same with Ian White, teams were looking for defense man and we just sit the guy and let him walk for absolutely nothing.

you don't trade Flip because teams know of his insane asking price and the unlikelihood that they would sign him. Teams trade for rights in order to sign the guy then and there. Flip has been delusional about his value, GMs were not. He's simply not valuable at the numbers he was throwing around, which would scare anyone away from a trade, even for a late pick. I simply offer the counter of that: Brad Stuart trade last year. He was gone, everyone knew it. San Jose knew they'd do what they had to to keep sign him, so they traded early for the rights. He had value because he wanted to be somewhere, not just at the bank.

Who were you getting for Ian White? What round draft pick were you getting? Once again, he's a guy that carried zero value. Wings didn't want him and it was obvious. He played like crap and it was obvious. At best, out of your comment you're upset that the Wings potentially missed out on 2 late round draft picks. If I'm off the mark, please let me know who you thought would be coming to Detroit in a trade involving either Flip or White.

Laughable that he went for the cup?
He gave up a lot to go for the cup -- but guess what, the Penguins are still a force in the NHL.

I expect both the Pens and Hawks to fall back a little bit. But with their core locked up, they'll be bonafide serious contenders again in 2-3 years

Not sure that any team who gets swept, has goaltending issues, and signed an offensive defenseman when the team's defense sucks is a "force." They have some world class talent, and if it comes together they could win...but they are by no means a force.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

And now here were are-- Datsyuk about to be 35....
Consider how established Z and Datsyuk already were when Yzerman was 35,

You mean recent prospects? Datsyuk didn't play a game in the NHL for another two years. Zetterberg for another three.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

you don't trade Flip because teams know of his insane asking price and the unlikelihood that they would sign him. Teams trade for rights in order to sign the guy then and there. Flip has been delusional about his value, GMs were not. He's simply not valuable at the numbers he was throwing around, which would scare anyone away from a trade, even for a late pick. I simply offer the counter of that: Brad Stuart trade last year. He was gone, everyone knew it. San Jose knew they'd do what they had to to keep sign him, so they traded early for the rights. He had value because he wanted to be somewhere, not just at the bank.

Who were you getting for Ian White? What round draft pick were you getting? Once again, he's a guy that carried zero value. Wings didn't want him and it was obvious. He played like crap and it was obvious. At best, out of your comment you're upset that the Wings potentially missed out on 2 late round draft picks. If I'm off the mark, please let me know who you thought would be coming to Detroit in a trade involving either Flip or White.



Not sure that any team who gets swept, has goaltending issues, and signed an offensive defenseman when the team's defense sucks is a "force." They have some world class talent, and if it comes together they could win...but they are by no means a force.

Yah I agree i wouldnt trade quincey, smith, helm and tootoo for letang, neal, crosby, kunitz and malkin either(each teams under 30 current core players who are not rookies or prospects)

 

[Frk It]

Who were you getting for Ian White? What round draft pick were you getting? Once again, he's a guy that carried zero value. Wings didn't want him and it was obvious. He played like crap and it was obvious. At best, out of your comment you're upset that the Wings potentially missed out on 2 late round draft picks. If I'm off the mark, please let me know who you thought would be coming to Detroit in a trade involving either Flip or White.

I'm real sick of this argument. We don't even have any idea how aggressively Holland tried to trade White. I'm sure Pittsburgh fans thought Tyler Kennedy had no trade value after being a healthy scratch in the playoffs and putting up 11 points this year. But their GM found a way to move him for a 2nd round pick. I'm sure San Jose fans thought Clowe's value was at rock bottom, but he got traded in the midst of a massive goal-less streak. We saw tons of guys get moved when a lot of their fan bases thought their value was at an all time low. I think Holland was holding on to White as insurance. If he made it known to other teams he was shopping White early on, and had some balls, I'm pretty sure he could have found a taker for a guy with 500 NHL games and who played #2 minutes on our team as recently as 11-12.

Seriously sick of this argument.

 

[johan f]

The problem is that Wings aren't the talk of the league anylonger. Some years ago players around the league knew they had a good shot winning stanley cup if joining the team....and therefor happily took any contract they were offered. That's not the case anylonger......Wings are not the powerhouse anylonger. Holland has done everything wrong the past years.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 50 s
Daniel Alfredsson believed to be mulling over final options, including Cup contenders. Bos, Det and of course, Sens vying for his services.

 

[Vladdy84]

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger 50 s
Daniel Alfredsson believed to be mulling over final options, including Cup contenders. Bos, Det and of course, Sens vying for his services.

Not that interested would rather go after Iginla and Gabbo.

Iggy-Dats-Gabbo
Nyquist-Z-Mule
Tatar-Helm-Bert
Gator-Andersson-Miller
Eaves
Toots

 

[InjuredChoker]

Not that interested would rather go after Iginla and Gabbo.

Iggy-Dats-Gabbo
Nyquist-Z-Mule
Tatar-Helm-Bert
Gator-Andersson-Miller
Eaves
Toots

Not enough cap space, I think.