Potential OHL Expansion Locations

OSA

Registered User
Jun 11, 2011
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As for the OHL here, I just don't see it. Erie is already on the outer fringe of the league's footprint. Take their travel time and add 2 hours to every destination, and that gives you Pittsburgh's travel burden.

Last year, the WHL had a 1st round playoff series between the Prince George Cougars and the Portland Winterhawks. The travel distance in that series was roughly the same as the distance to travel from Sault Ste. Marie to St. Louis, Missouri.

Also last year, there was a 1st round playoff series between the Rouyn-Noranda Huskies and the Halifax Mooseheads. A drive from Sudbury to Atlanta, Georgia would be roughly the same distance.

I don’t mean to single you out because you’re not alone, but, “travel” and “distance” are simply not legitimate reasons to be used against a potential OHL market unless we’re talking about adding a team in Thunder Bay or the sun belt.
 

OSA

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Jun 11, 2011
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If the Pens had a choice to back NCAA or OHL, choosing the NCAA would be a real head scratcher for me.

Most of the franchise’s best players have come out of the CHL. The current face of your franchise played in the league.
 

Captain Crash

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Apr 9, 2015
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Last year, the WHL had a 1st round playoff series between the Prince George Cougars and the Portland Winterhawks. The travel distance in that series was roughly the same as the distance to travel from Sault Ste. Marie to St. Louis, Missouri.

Also last year, there was a 1st round playoff series between the Rouyn-Noranda Huskies and the Halifax Mooseheads. A drive from Sudbury to Atlanta, Georgia would be roughly the same distance.

I don’t mean to single you out because you’re not alone, but, “travel” and “distance” are simply not legitimate reasons to be used against a potential OHL market unless we’re talking about adding a team in Thunder Bay or the sun belt.

I understand that it seems to fly in the W and Q, but for whatever reason the OHL does not seem interested in stretching their footprint that wide.
 

Captain Crash

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Apr 9, 2015
463
227
If the Pens had a choice to back NCAA or OHL, choosing the NCAA would be a real head scratcher for me.

Most of the franchise’s best players have come out of the CHL. The current face of your franchise played in the league.

My guess is that they just don't see the CHL as realistic for Pittsburgh, while the NCAA would be much more hands off after helping it get started; they'd probably have to own an OHL team but would be at most a landlord to Pitt. But you'd have to ask them why. They have already been working with RMU's D1 team, hosting an NCAA tournament every year at PPG Arena, plus additional regular season games there against Penn State, cross promoting on their behalf, and recently hosting the Frozen Four with bids to do it again. Heck, they even let Pitt's ACHA club team play a yearly game in their arena.

Their work with college hockey is pretty involved. Major Junior? Zilch. Nada. Nothing.
 

Jeffrey93

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Nov 7, 2007
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None yet, same with Hamilton as well, though Hamilton will likely renew if the city gets in agreement with Andlauer on a new arena, as FirstOntario needs to be replaced within the next few years if the Bulldogs are to stay in Hamilton.
Are you for real?!?!

That building doesn't need to be replaced to host an OHL team as a tenant. Would it be ideal to have a venue that is about half the size? Yeah. Is it necessary? No.

Andlauer saw the writing on the wall with the AHL Bulldogs and did what he had to do so he could keep a hockey team in Hamilton. He isn't going to bail because the 17,800 seat venue isn't being replaced.

A study was conducted with private funding to examine the options of FirstOntario Centre. It figured out a cost to renovate the venue to make it a top NHL building, to renovate it for OHL purposes and to replace it.

The City has opted to basically maintain a holding pattern for now.

I realize Andlauer has offered to pay for half of a smaller venue.....although he said the actual size doesn't matter as long as it can facilitate a good atmosphere for OHL fans.

He's not going to bail because the facility is too big. I doubt he's upset right now that he has curtains that can be pulled back and more tickets sold. 8,600 on a weeknight in Game 4. Game 6 might crack 10,000.

Andlauer would like a new top of the line OHL building. Who wouldn't? He won't leave if he doesn't get it though. Realize the position that puts the City of Hamilton in. No councilor is going to want to vote to kill the dream.
 

Hammer9001

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Apr 1, 2015
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Hamilton
Are you for real?!?!

That building doesn't need to be replaced to host an OHL team as a tenant. Would it be ideal to have a venue that is about half the size? Yeah. Is it necessary? No.

Andlauer saw the writing on the wall with the AHL Bulldogs and did what he had to do so he could keep a hockey team in Hamilton. He isn't going to bail because the 17,800 seat venue isn't being replaced.

A study was conducted with private funding to examine the options of FirstOntario Centre. It figured out a cost to renovate the venue to make it a top NHL building, to renovate it for OHL purposes and to replace it.

The City has opted to basically maintain a holding pattern for now.

I realize Andlauer has offered to pay for half of a smaller venue.....although he said the actual size doesn't matter as long as it can facilitate a good atmosphere for OHL fans.

He's not going to bail because the facility is too big. I doubt he's upset right now that he has curtains that can be pulled back and more tickets sold. 8,600 on a weeknight in Game 4. Game 6 might crack 10,000.

Andlauer would like a new top of the line OHL building. Who wouldn't? He won't leave if he doesn't get it though. Realize the position that puts the City of Hamilton in. No councilor is going to want to vote to kill the dream.

Partly disagree. I think Hamilton has accepted that the NHL dream is over. Quebec City is now the leverage for the NHL, not us and after the recent stadium debacle by the Ti-Cats, the city is likely even more gunshy about investing in sports facilities (Thanks Scott Mitchell :mad: ). I also think that so long as you have a dysfunctional divided city council, divided on Urban, Suburban and Rural lines and seems perfectly willing to sabotage the whole if the individual part doesn't get what it wants, you can't put past any kind of debacle these guys will engage in.

That said, I don't think the city wants to take a wrecking ball to the facility, as they still want a large venue. I would think at least a 15,000 seater to host major events on the occasion, like the Junos, Non-Outdoor Concerts and bigger shows. That said, without a primary tenant (like the Bulldogs), the viability of the building becomes a lot more questionable. It is hard to consistently attract big ticket events (due to the proximity to Toronto) but you also lose out on smaller events to other nearby municipalities and a new area is going to compound that problem. You can see why the city might not been keen on the idea of building a new area and would be more amendable to renovation.

However, realistically there aren't a lot of non-hockey related renovations you could perform to the building that would benefit the Bulldogs apart from an Upper Bowl renovation (maybe reducing seats or putting some new form of boxes up there), updating the concourse (which doesn't open all it's booths during the regular season as it currently stands) or replacing the arena's elevators and escalators which are all big expenditures. Things that are preventing the Bulldogs from hosting a memorial cup, like a dehumidification system, a new scoreboard screen are only for the benefit of the Bulldogs.

Conversely though, Andlauer knows the biggest issue with the facility is it's size and to a lesser extent it's location. Make no mistake, if suddenly Andlauer starts filling the lower bowl after every game and is drawing a consistent 6-8 thousand a game, I think the need for a new arena becomes a lot less immediate. It's one of the reasons I'd like to see a minor realignment with Mississauga getting moved to the East division and Hamilton put into the Central as more Niagara games would help things quite a bit and it would mildly benefit the entire East division as far as travel time and only mildly inconvenience Sudbury, North Bay and Barrie.

Right now, I don't see another municipality or members of the private sector looking to build a new facility and court Andlauer but that's always hard to tell. So far, the only people who are trying to do anything publicly is the city of Hamilton via its developer rights swap idea or some vague comments by the mayor. I think if I'm him, I wait and see what I draw after this run and see if I have managed to attract more of a fanbase with this run. If he can increase attendance by even an extra 1,000, the Bulldogs will be the third highest attendance in the league.
 
Last edited:

Jeffrey93

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Nov 7, 2007
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Partly disagree. ....
Good points.

I don't think any Councillor wants to be voting to end the dream, even still. Quebec is now the leverage....it's the threat. I agree with that. Hamilton served that role for a long time, the 'Plan B' of many teams....that, to me, makes it easier to work with the NHL.

I want to see what Carmen's and OVG have planned. I can't imagine they don't have some plans. Remember....the study has been done to make FOC a top of the line OHL facility (lower bowl) or to bring it right up to be a top NHL caliber venue....

$250M to get this.....
first-ontario-centre-concept-art-2017.png


$68M to just do the Lower Bowl....suites, concessions, ....assuming escalator, scoreboard, etc. as well.

If for hockey purposes all anyone wants right now is a smaller venue....then this option works and keeps the large capacity for other events/shows. I think Carmen's/OVG and Andlauer will be approaching the city with a plan....and it's going to incude Copps. The location, the footprint of that building...the need for a building of that size for non-hockey events........there's just no way building an OHL -specific venue makes any sense.

Yes, it will be something the Bulldogs will have to fight against...it's better to have this problem than have a rink like Val D'or, Prince Albert, Baie-Comeau, Owen Sound, and several others.


Anyway....I think you'll see the dream will be kept alive by a "lower bowl renovation". Suites, dehumidification system, scoreboard, concessions, etc. Makes the venue that much more attractive for larger events (WJHC, Memorial Cup, Concerts, etc.) but also gives the major tenant a top of the line 9,000 building.

I found during today's game, even with the curtains opened up between the blue lines on each side.....it felt like much smaller facility. When watching the game you only see the LED ring and below. It's like nothing exists above that ring. Having said that.....the lower bowl was packed, which helps.

TLDR: I think things are going to start happening in the near future once the management of the Core Venues is awarded.
 

AttackSound

Junior Hockey Fan Since Birth
Aug 25, 2016
2,256
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Owen Sound, Ontario
This will be interesting for Cornwall in the future. An exhibition game between Kingston Frontenacs and Ottawa 67's: Cornwall Civic Complex hosting OHL exhibition game in September - Cornwall Tourism

It will be interesting to find out why they chose a former OHL city to play a natural site rivalry game between 2 east division oppenets.

There is no disputing that when it comes to OHL expansion that the city of Cornwall always ends up in chatter around the league every time there' talks talks of teams moving or relocating.

Therefore the plus/minus sceario

Plus

1 Cornwall has had a CHL team bore for many years between the O and Q leagues

2 They have the facility in which would be up to the OHL's current standards of faculties

3 They would have a fan base that would already established in the city and surrounding area.

Now of course the Minus

1 Unfortunately due to the distance of the city of Cornwall the OHL governors would have to vote on wheher or not they want Cornwall as the 21st team in the league

2 At this very moment in the OHL the divisions are somewhat set for the time being with the arenas leases so I can't see the league trying to accommodate Cornwall anytime soon

3 Scheduling would be a nightmare for the league to sort out. At the moment the OHL already has scheduling issues on a consistent season to season basis due to the high volume of multipurpose facilities that are in the league now that have to be accommodated with different events.

Not to also discount that the CHL next season will be going to a 34-34 game schedule in all three league's schedules if Cornwall was to return to the league that would change not also the divisions but the schedule as well to something similar to what the WHL was like for years which I can't see the league trying to accommodate those extra games for just one city
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
It will be interesting to find out why they chose a former OHL city to play a natural site rivalry game between 2 east division oppenets.

There is no disputing that when it comes to OHL expansion that the city of Cornwall always ends up in chatter around the league every time there' talks talks of teams moving or relocating.

Therefore the plus/minus sceario

Plus

1 Cornwall has had a CHL team bore for many years between the O and Q leagues

2 They have the facility in which would be up to the OHL's current standards of faculties

3 They would have a fan base that would already established in the city and surrounding area.

Now of course the Minus

1 Unfortunately due to the distance of the city of Cornwall the OHL governors would have to vote on wheher or not they want Cornwall as the 21st team in the league

2 At this very moment in the OHL the divisions are somewhat set for the time being with the arenas leases so I can't see the league trying to accommodate Cornwall anytime soon

3 Scheduling would be a nightmare for the league to sort out. At the moment the OHL already has scheduling issues on a consistent season to season basis due to the high volume of multipurpose facilities that are in the league now that have to be accommodated with different events.

Not to also discount that the CHL next season will be going to a 34-34 game schedule in all three league's schedules if Cornwall was to return to the league that would change not also the divisions but the schedule as well to something similar to what the WHL was like for years which I can't see the league trying to accommodate those extra games for just one city

You're viewing Cornwall as an expansion only situation. I don't see the league ever expanding beyond 20 teams. If Cornwall were to get a team it would be by relocation only.
 

Hammer9001

Registered User
Apr 1, 2015
848
436
Hamilton
It will be interesting to find out why they chose a former OHL city to play a natural site rivalry game between 2 east division oppenets.

There is no disputing that when it comes to OHL expansion that the city of Cornwall always ends up in chatter around the league every time there' talks talks of teams moving or relocating.

Therefore the plus/minus sceario

Plus

1 Cornwall has had a CHL team bore for many years between the O and Q leagues

2 They have the facility in which would be up to the OHL's current standards of faculties

3 They would have a fan base that would already established in the city and surrounding area.

Now of course the Minus

1 Unfortunately due to the distance of the city of Cornwall the OHL governors would have to vote on wheher or not they want Cornwall as the 21st team in the league

2 At this very moment in the OHL the divisions are somewhat set for the time being with the arenas leases so I can't see the league trying to accommodate Cornwall anytime soon

3 Scheduling would be a nightmare for the league to sort out. At the moment the OHL already has scheduling issues on a consistent season to season basis due to the high volume of multipurpose facilities that are in the league now that have to be accommodated with different events.

Not to also discount that the CHL next season will be going to a 34-34 game schedule in all three league's schedules if Cornwall was to return to the league that would change not also the divisions but the schedule as well to something similar to what the WHL was like for years which I can't see the league trying to accommodate those extra games for just one city

1. I don't see this an an issue, for most of the OHL, Cornwall is nearly the same distance as Ottawa and if anything would help out travel for the East (see next point). Ideally though I think you want to see the league get up to 24 teams. Also, money talks a deep pocketed owner could certainly make a case for expansion, if only for a one time cash infusion to the league and it's owners as well as potentially a slightly longer season, allowing them to better leverage their arena deals.

2. I disagree on this one, mainly because it doesn't make a lot of sense having Erie on an island in the Mid-West or Hamilton as part of the East division. A team shouldn't be driving past other markets outside it's own division if it can be avoided. Not only does it make those two teams suffer, but I'm sure Owen Sound, Ottawa and Kingston aren't exactly thrilled with the 5+ hours of travel they have to make against one of their division rivals. A Cornwall expansion instantly eliminates the Hamilton in the East issue as you can then move Hamilton to the Central or do some shuffling between the Central and Mid-West to help out Erie.

3. This I can agree with, to a degree but realistically every sports league encounters this issue to a degree. You'll find a way to make it work for more games, more cash coming in and most importantly, more Canadian kids getting the chance at the top level of junior hockey development.

What I'd much rather see is though is Cornwall come in, with another market to go with it to balance to conferences. Ideally Chatham.
 

AttackSound

Junior Hockey Fan Since Birth
Aug 25, 2016
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Owen Sound, Ontario
1. I don't see this an an issue, for most of the OHL, Cornwall is nearly the same distance as Ottawa and if anything would help out travel for the East (see next point). Ideally though I think you want to see the league get up to 24 teams. Also, money talks a deep pocketed owner could certainly make a case for expansion, if only for a one time cash infusion to the league and it's owners as well as potentially a slightly longer season, allowing them to better leverage their arena deals.

2. I disagree on this one, mainly because it doesn't make a lot of sense having Erie on an island in the Mid-West or Hamilton as part of the East division. A team shouldn't be driving past other markets outside it's own division if it can be avoided. Not only does it make those two teams suffer, but I'm sure Owen Sound, Ottawa and Kingston aren't exactly thrilled with the 5+ hours of travel they have to make against one of their division rivals. A Cornwall expansion instantly eliminates the Hamilton in the East issue as you can then move Hamilton to the Central or do some shuffling between the Central and Mid-West to help out Erie.

3. This I can agree with, to a degree but realistically every sports league encounters this issue to a degree. You'll find a way to make it work for more games, more cash coming in and most importantly, more Canadian kids getting the chance at the top level of junior hockey development.

What I'd much rather see is though is Cornwall come in, with another market to go with it to balance to conferences. Ideally Chatham.

Looking from and add 2 city approach is something that I do agree with you on my point was off adding one team to the league would be nonsense in a scheduling conflict between the conferences

If the league was to introduce a Cornwall/Chatham expansion then it would be a more level approach and would allow for a more even schedule within the conferences.

As it stands right now Hammer as you pointed out there is a bigger issue in travel because Hamilton already has to pass St Catherines and Mississauga to play there closet divisional rivial anyways which would be Peterborough Pete's at the moment
 

frontsfan2005

Registered User
Mar 26, 2006
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Ontario, Canada
I'd be surprised if the OHL was going to expand any time soon. I think the league is happy with 20 clubs.
If the league was to expand, it would likely to be part of a plan to get to 24 teams.

The biggest Ontario metropolitan areas without a team are:
Brantford - Needs an arena upgrade
Thunder Bay - Travel would be an issue
Belleville - Has an AHL team
Chatham - Needs an arena upgrade
Cornwall - Has an arena, fills a hole in the East, not sure of a potential owner

Other Ontario cities without an OHL team:
Brampton, Markham, Vaughn, Richmond Hill, Oakville, Burlington, Cambridge, Whitby, Ajax, Milton, Waterloo
Other than Brampton and Waterloo (with a major renovation), do any of these cities have an OHL ready arena? Both of those cities are within another teams home territory (Steelheads and Rangers respectively).

As for the US, a team in Western New York State is probably at the top of the OHL wish list.

My guess would be Buffalo, Cornwall, Brantford and Chatham if the OHL ever expanded by four cities.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
I'd be surprised if the OHL was going to expand any time soon. I think the league is happy with 20 clubs.
If the league was to expand, it would likely to be part of a plan to get to 24 teams.

The biggest Ontario metropolitan areas without a team are:
Brantford - Needs an arena upgrade
Thunder Bay - Travel would be an issue
Belleville - Has an AHL team
Chatham - Needs an arena upgrade
Cornwall - Has an arena, fills a hole in the East, not sure of a potential owner

Other Ontario cities without an OHL team:
Brampton, Markham, Vaughn, Richmond Hill, Oakville, Burlington, Cambridge, Whitby, Ajax, Milton, Waterloo
Other than Brampton and Waterloo (with a major renovation), do any of these cities have an OHL ready arena? Both of those cities are within another teams home territory (Steelheads and Rangers respectively).

As for the US, a team in Western New York State is probably at the top of the OHL wish list.

My guess would be Buffalo, Cornwall, Brantford and Chatham if the OHL ever expanded by four cities.

Burlington doesn't have an OHL arena, and space is at a premium so I doubt you'd ever see a team there. On top of that I don't see any arenas being built in the next few years at least with public funds. Infrastructure money is going to be hard to come by for something that would be considered a perk
 

Ward Cornell

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Dec 22, 2007
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Burlington doesn't have an OHL arena, and space is at a premium so I doubt you'd ever see a team there. On top of that I don't see any arenas being built in the next few years at least with public funds. Infrastructure money is going to be hard to come by for something that would be considered a perk
Don't disagree at all! I suspect the ideal size of an OHL arena (5,550 seats +/-) that the business model of making it financially viable is next to impossible. Too small to attract any other live events (concerts) and any city that could support an OHL team they probably have other "halls" or arenas to host the other types of events.
 
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Hammer9001

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Apr 1, 2015
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Hamilton
Burlington doesn't have an OHL arena, and space is at a premium so I doubt you'd ever see a team there. On top of that I don't see any arenas being built in the next few years at least with public funds. Infrastructure money is going to be hard to come by for something that would be considered a perk

I'll also say that Burlington, historically has always been stingy with public funds, even before the Spencer Smith dock boondongle. They've always held the opinion, "Sure build it here, but don't expect a dime from us" as evidenced by the pan am velodrome and stadium builds.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
I'll also say that Burlington, historically has always been stingy with public funds, even before the Spencer Smith dock boondongle. They've always held the opinion, "Sure build it here, but don't expect a dime from us" as evidenced by the pan am velodrome and stadium builds.

True, but my infrastructure comment was about the province in general. Ford's going to be looking for ways to save money .. or not spend money ... and perks such as arenas won't be happening at least in the next 4 years. The tariff fiasco will also prevent a lot of "nice to have" projects on hold on both sides of the border.
 

OSA

Registered User
Jun 11, 2011
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432
As it stands right now Hammer as you pointed out there is a bigger issue in travel because Hamilton already has to pass St Catherines and Mississauga to play there closet divisional rivial anyways which would be Peterborough Pete's at the moment

Oh dear god, I hope you’re not the navigator on road trips haha
 

Captain Crash

Registered User
Apr 9, 2015
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227

Beat me to it! Not surprisingly, the news of potential upgrades to the Civic Centre made the front page of the Brantford Expositor.

City councillors want to know how much it would cost to upgrade the civic centre, which marked its 50th anniversary last year, to Ontario Hockey League standards.

Councillors at a committee meeting this week voted 6-3 in favour of spending up to $150,000 to hire an architectural firm to get a basic design concept and cost estimate for upgrades. Their recommendation will come up for approval when city council meets on June 26.

...

The issue was brought to councillors by city parks-recreation staff, who said they often receive enquiries from OHL teams considering moves to Brantford.

"Over the past few years, there has been increasing interest from OHL teams seeking to establish themselves in Brantford," states a parks-recreation department report. "For this to be considered, major renovations would be required to the building and ice service."

Source: OHL for civic centre?

Really interesting little nugget of information that apparently they've been approached multiple times about OHL franchises relocating there. I know that the local owner if the Junior B 99ers had kicked the tires on the Steelheads... I wonder who else may have inquired. If the arena was up to standards, we'd probably already see Brantford on the OHL map.

I hope they make this happen, because I think they could be quite successful!
 
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Savard18

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Feb 10, 2015
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Flint, MI
Beat me to it! Not surprisingly, the news of potential upgrades to the Civic Centre made the front page of the Brantford Expositor.



Really interesting little nugget of information that apparently they've been approached multiple times about OHL franchises relocating there. I know that the local owner if the Junior B 99ers had kicked the tires on the Steelheads... I wonder who else may have inquired. If the arena was up to standards, we'd probably already see Brantford on the OHL map.

I hope they make this happen, because I think they could be quite successful!
It was reported that Rolf Nilsen spent $7 mil USD to upgrade Perani/DFCU. Boards/glass, lighting, scoreboard, signage, locker rooms other amenities for players and staff. No real structural improvements or seating added. I'm sure I'm missing a couple little upgrades but I'm guessing you're probably looking at $8-12 million USD to get Brantford in that same range. It seems that's the only thing holding Brantford back from having a successful OHL franchise.
 

TcNorth

Registered User
Jan 25, 2015
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Flint lost 61 seats in the remodeling going from 4,021 seats to 3,960 seats. We can get another 400 standing room for 4,360. I’ve been to Branford when Flint had the Bulldogs and Generals. $10 million in their civic center would make it a palace. After some renovation n in 2015, Brantford is listed as having 2,952 seats. Not sure about standing room.
 

the dog

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May 16, 2014
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Flint lost 61 seats in the remodeling going from 4,021 seats to 3,960 seats. We can get another 400 standing room for 4,360. I’ve been to Branford when Flint had the Bulldogs and Generals. $10 million in their civic center would make it a palace. After some renovation n in 2015, Brantford is listed as having 2,952 seats. Not sure about standing room.
standing room is 419..also ice is 180 by 85
 

Hammer9001

Registered User
Apr 1, 2015
848
436
Hamilton
Beat me to it! Not surprisingly, the news of potential upgrades to the Civic Centre made the front page of the Brantford Expositor.

Really interesting little nugget of information that apparently they've been approached multiple times about OHL franchises relocating there. I know that the local owner if the Junior B 99ers had kicked the tires on the Steelheads... I wonder who else may have inquired. If the arena was up to standards, we'd probably already see Brantford on the OHL map.

I hope they make this happen, because I think they could be quite successful!

I would be interested in which team would be considering a move. I mean I think we can all agree, kicking the tires of the Steelheads seems likely, and 5 years is about the timeframe I would give for an arena renovation to be analyzed, costed and completed. Additionally, I can see Erie getting moved, not only due to travel and border issues but also the team was bought at auction in 2015 I thought, so I'm not certain of the state of their finances. I'd be interested who else would be considering it.
 

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