Post Your "All Rookie Teams"

[triggrman]

Hamhuis goes more against the top pairings than any other Nashville defenseman.

I'd say Hamhuis is better all around than any you mentioned.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The stat (like any stat) is useful if it is used correctly. This is especially the case for defensemen who have more of a focus on keeping the puck out of their own net. Fact is Hamhuis is a fine young dman ? but he is one of the worst +/- dmen on his team. That means the puck is going in the net a lot more while he is on the ice than most other Pred dmen. Nashville is also a pretty good team so he?s playing with relatively good players.

Will Hamhuis be a superior player to Liles, Martin and Bergeron in a few years? ? almost certainly yes. But 4 other guys (Pitkanen, Liles, Martin and Bergeron) probably had slightly better seasons in terms of combining both offense and defense. The award is about how good you WERE this past year ? not how good you WILL BE.

Bleh

Orpik has the worst +/- of any defenseman on Pittsburgh despite being far and away our best defensive player.

 

[Asiaoil]

Hamhuis goes more against the top pairings than any other Nashville defenseman.

I'd say Hamhuis is better all around than any you mentioned.

That's true but his +/- suggests that he has not been completely successful doing that. Whatever - the kid will be a great dman eventually - I just think other were more successful this year.

 

[stardog]

So you are saying that because of one stat, no one will pick him? That because of one almost meaningless piece of information, people will forgo the opinions they've derived from watching him. I'd hate to have 'these' people picking anything important.

Yep Smokey...unfortunatley, that is what you get when you base someones game on reading his stat sheet (a worthless stat as well IMO).
Of course now we are going to hear the whole tired, "I've watched him this many blah blah blah" argument.

 

[stardog]

I think that his +/- is a valid argument. He doesn't put up points, and has the worst +/- of any defenseman on his team.

Yeah and he has total control of how every goal is scored when he is on the ice because he has a mind control device where the other players on his team are under his complete control.
And thus, their bodies respond to his every command on the ice.
He is also the goalie, but only when a soft goal is allowed.
In fact, I am typing this right now as Brooks Orpik. He has taken over my computer as well.

It is just as ridiculous as him getting a plus for happening to be on the ice when a point is scored for his team.

 

[stardog]

I seen him play....he is a physical defensemen...thats it. His defensive zone coverage is horrible and he has no offense to boot.

AHA! I was right....And you may have "seen him play" but you haven't seen him play often or with any regularity.
Sorry, but his defensive zone "coverage" is excellent for a rookie and very good overall.

I see you on here bashing players from teams not named Devils alot, and people rarely agree with your assesment. I am wondering how you find the time to watch all these players?

Anyways, I honestly think you may have watched Orpik only when he played NJ. Of course you will say that isnt the case, but I dont think you have much to stand on in the defensive zone coverage assesment.

The rest of your "scouting report" is obvious, so it doesnt take alot to see that he has no offense (didn't know that was a requirment to be a good defensive defensman) and that he is a physical player.

Explain why you feel he is so poor at coverage. Does he miss his assignment? Get caught out of position making a hit? Make poor decisions? Skating not well enough to keep up? Lacks lateral movement? Fails to make reads on the fly? Lose his man? What?
You brought it up...now explain. With having seen him play, and making that bold statement, I am sure there are many examples you could cite to back it up no?

 

[stardog]

orpik is a nasty open ice hitter, but he still has a little way to go.

i wouldn't put him in the same class as the top rookie defenders yet.

+/- is not a useless stat when comparing players on the same team. that said, him and tarnstrom have drawn a lot of hardest assignments for the bulk of the season. wouldn't be so easy to handle on such a poor team.

It certainly is when you are paired with Dan Focht and playing behind Matt Bradley, Steve McKenna and Brian Holzingers all year. Bergevin was his best D partner and that doesnt say alot. Bergie is smart, but his best days are long gone.

Again, +/- does NOT account for an individuals play (or defensive coverage). The individual has no control over the play of his team mates or a poor performance by a goalie (and we have had quite a few of those-goalies and poor team play-this year).

 

[stardog]

For the dmen - MA Bergeron has been the best of the bunch for the last quarter of the season. He's 9-17-26 +13 in only 53 games.

Liles, Pitkanen and Martin have also been solid at both ends of the rink - but Hamhuis and his -13 on a pretty good Nashville squad means he's not top 4 IMO.

No way you can base Hammy's game on his +/-.
Next to Pitkanen, in terms of play, how he has handled himself and his on ice maturity and growth, he is the best of t bunch this year.
To take that away from him by using a sta that at the least is useless and the best is VERY subjective is simply incorrect IMO.

We can easily say that Liles got his numbers from playing on a strong Avs squad, yet taking into account his individual PLAY that would be wrong.
It is the same for Hammy. His individual play certainly is easily in the top four without much question, andm IMO in the top two as well.

 

[stardog]

Not if looked at correctly.

Even IF looked at "correctly" it is still incredibly subjective and in no way (or in a very small way) determines the given play of an INDIVIDUAL. It is still innacurate no matter which way you choose to look at it.

I'll go back to the Jeff Halpern example. Does anybody seriously think that he is not one of the best defensive forwards in the game? Look at his +/-. Does that mean he is bad defensivley or does it mean his team was? Even if you disagree that he is one of the best D-forwards in the league, there is no way that he is one of the worst, yet if you base it on his +/-, he IS near the worst.

I mean does ANYONE here think he is the worst defensive forward on the Caps? Please!
This is what I mean when I say that there are many variables that are not in control of the individual that helps determine what said individuals +/- is.

It is a LARGLY useless stat.
Sorry, it simply just is.

 

[stardog]

Its BS because you want it to be BS. Judging by your list you fit in perfect with Leafaholix and KomisarekX8.

Ok so you can throw the insults but can you also answer his question?
Because the answer you GAVE isn't an answer, it is a theory...and it is quite presumptuous.

I also, would like an answer to his question.

And I find it quite ironic that you are suggesting anyone else is a homer.


Now here is my list:

Ryder Ruutu Hunter
Hamhuis Pitkanen
Raycroft


Malone Bergeron Zherdev
Liles Orpik
Fluery

Gotta give consideration to the following guys who could easily or possibly displace a few on the second team.

Martin
Koltsov
Exelby
Lupul
Stall
And even though he gets little love on here, a guy I really like is Semin. I think he is gonna be a stud.
Maclean has played well also.
King had a great first couple months but in his short time spent up here this year, the one Nuck rookie I liked more than any other is Kessler.
Horton
Backman
Roy
Stajan
and finally M.A. Bergeron round out my list.

Finally let me just say that I am basing this on things other than stats alone. Certain guys have really taken thier game and maturity above what a normal rookie would do (thus my fondness for Hammy).
I have only seen the Blues play a couple times this year so my evaluation of Backman doesnt have alot of validity behind it. I dont think my assesment of him would entirely accurate.
The other guys I have seen anywhere from 7 times (still not an accurate barometer) to 80 or so times.

And, if Pens fans are wondering why I don't have Malone on the top unit, I believe his play has slipped alot at times during the season (including now). As noted by someone, this is his first pro year and as such, probably isnt used to the long schedule. Of course a rookie isnt expected to have tons of consistency, but he has gone through some rough stretches of overall play.
I think he may be close to the top of the group in terms of over all play and he has certainly been a very pleasant surprise for Pens fans. I just think, as for the year as a whole, Hunter and Ryder have been better.

In fact, because of that, I almost put Bergeron on the top line in place of Ruutu. But Bergeron's play has slipped somewhat and I think that Ruutu has had the most dominant stretch of games out of any rookie this entire year (though most dominant game by a rookie I would give to Hamhuis and his 4 point night against the Pens),

One other thing. And this IS speculative, but a somewhat valid opinion, I think that had Zherdev played the entire year, he would have won the award. And Horton could have made one of the teams easily as well IMO.

As a side note, let me be the first to nominate Tomas Pock for a top 3 finish next year (if there indeed IS a next year). The Rags got a gem IMO with that guy. I really have enjoyed watching him.

 

[stardog]

The stat (like any stat) is useful if it is used correctly. This is especially the case for defensemen who have more of a focus on keeping the puck out of their own net. Fact is Hamhuis is a fine young dman – but he is one of the worst +/- dmen on his team. That means the puck is going in the net a lot more while he is on the ice than most other Pred dmen. Nashville is also a pretty good team so he’s playing with relatively good players.

And that is totally unfair unless you watch and can come to an informative opinion on how many goals that took place while he was on the ice were HIS fault as an individual, or the fault of another individual.
Completely unfair. Guys get a minus from coming on a line change when the play had already passed him by and a goal is then scored. Hardly his fault nor would that indicate ANYTHING about his play..
Guys get a minus when a goalie lets in a soft blast from the blueline. They get a - when thier partner screws up and leaves them alone to defend a one on three.
And finally (and most important IMO), guys get a minus when they are taking THIER man, making THIER read, playing THIER position correctly and keeping with thier coverage, all the while, thier partner, or a forward DOESNT do any, all or one of the above an HIS man scores.
That is HARDLY any type of indicator as to said defensmans abilities. And if he left HIS man to make up for a mistake by a team mate, and HIS man scored then he would get a minus.

It is hardly accurate to say that Hammy's +/- is in any way an indicator of his season yet that is the sole reason that you are giving for knocking him down to the second team.

It is a faulty statistic and should not be used at all to determine anything about the individuals play (note my Jeff Halpern-or even Kono- example above).

Will Hamhuis be a superior player to Liles, Martin and Bergeron in a few years? – almost certainly yes. But 4 other guys (Pitkanen, Liles, Martin and Bergeron) probably had slightly better seasons in terms of combining both offense and defense. The award is about how good you WERE this past year – not how good you WILL BE.

And Hamhuis has been better than both Bergeron and Liles IMO. Offense, you give it to Bergeron slightly. But the gap between them defensivley is more than enough to make up for the offensive gap between the two.

If you watch him play with any frequency you will see that he is far from a defensive liability (though people are trying to say he is based on a useless stat) and he is VERY good offensivley. He is mature beyond his years, doesn't panic, can play a mean style and he has shown the poise and confidence of a veteran.
I would say that he is having a great all around season. I am not sure why you would think the others are having a better one based not on thier play, but by the useless stat of one individual in question.

 

[stardog]

Hamhuis goes more against the top pairings than any other Nashville defenseman.

I'd say Hamhuis is better all around than any you mentioned.

agreed...the most well rounded of the rookie D-men.
I think Pit has been the most dominant, but not the most well rounded.

 

[Meat Wave]

1st team

FORWARDS
Ryan Malone - Tuomo Ruutu - Michael Ryder

DEFENSEMEN
Joni Pitkänen - Dan Hamhuis

GOALIE
Andrew Raycroft

2nd team

FORWARDS
Nikolai Zherdev - Patrice Bergeron - Trent Hunter

DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin - JM Liles

GOALIE
MA Fleury

 

[sonnytheman]

I always thought there was only one all-rookie team?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I seen him play....he is a physical defensemen...thats it. His defensive zone coverage is horrible and he has no offense to boot.

You need to go back to hockey school 101.

Since the middle of December, Orpik has rarely made mistakes in his own zone, or missed any assignments.

I've watched all of his shifts since October, and it is obvious you haven't watched him play that often.

I think you need to learn a little more about a D-man's assigments in his own zone.

Also, he has been beaten 1-1 only three times all season. Jason Blake did it twice, and the one time Orpik was beaten by Blake in a 4-4 situation. The other player was Kovalchuk. All of this was in the early part of the season.

Kovalchuk tried to get cute with Orpik on Friday and Orpik put him on the ice. Not many D-man can get locked up 1-1 with Kovalchuk and do what Orpik did. It was more than impressive.

Once you understand the game a little better, then feel free to comment about Orpik.