Poor individual seasons?

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by leafaholix*, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    What prospects have had a poor(er) 2004/05 season?

    My pick goes to Andrew Ladd, he scored 30 fewer points in Calgary (in 6 fewer games).

    2003/04: 71 games, 30 goals, 45 assists, 75 points, +39
    2004/05: 65 games, 19 goals, 26 assists, 45 points, +16

    This on a similar team to last season, despite Getzlaf playing 20 fewer games. Though, he (Getzlaf) did produce at an identical pace as last season, and the Hitmen added Konstantin Pushkarov, as well as improved production from defenseman Dustin Kohn and role player Shaun Landolt.

    In a re-do of the 2004 draft, would he even go in the top 20?
     
  2. Mr.Brownov*

    Mr.Brownov* Guest

    I'm going with A.Stewart

    03/04- 53 35 23 58
    04/05- 62 32 35 67

    Similar back to back stats
    But he should've dominated the OHL this year.Also a poor WJC.
     
  3. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    I don't mean on expectations, but moreso what they did last season.

    Putting up similar numbers isn't poor.
     
  4. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Get it right. Getzlaf's pace was not identical but in fact went down rather significantly.

    I wonder why you always have this urge to pepper all your thoughts with stretches, inaccuracies and/or strawmen.

    Most reports I read (including some by the players themselves) seem to indicate they underachieved collectively.

    The chance of Ladd falling off the top 20 are about as good as the chance of you being taken seriously.
     
  5. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    Getzlaf averaged 1.06 points-per-game in 2003/04. In 2004/05, he averaged 1.06 points-per-game. I'd say that's pretty close to identical. :shakehead

    Once again, another jab at me. Get over it, Andrew Ladd at #4 was a mistake despite what you say. He's no better than Kyle Chipchura, who went 18th. There's really no way Ladd goes in the top 15 in a re-do of the draft.
     
  6. Crossbar

    Crossbar Registered User

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    David Shantz.

    He can't blame it on his teammates, because goaltender Michael Ouzas is playing great with the same players in front of him for Mississauga and took the starting job away from Shantz fair-and-square.
     
  7. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Getzlaf in 2003-04: 1.53
    Getzlaf in 2004-05: 1.06

    You get jabs because of the kind of stunt you just pulled. Not only posting msinformation, but not even acknowledging it after someone told you you didn't know what you were talking about.

    One would think you would actually check those kind of facts before starting a thread. One would think that failing to do this, you would get the hint once it is pointed to you once.

    What are you going to do next? Post a THIRD time that his scoring pace was identical? Or are you going to buy a damn clue?

    As for your comparison with Chipchura (with which I disagree, BTW), that is really besides the point of your post. Which seems to be: Everything in Hitmen-land this year was fine except Ladd. And then asking pointlessly whether he'd even go in the top 20.
     
  8. Ville Isopaa

    Ville Isopaa Registered User

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    How exactly are these two seasons by Getzlaf even remotely equal? Get your facts straight!
    2003-04 WHL Season Calgary Hitmen 49 28 47 75 32 97
    2004-05 WHL Season Calgary Hitmen 51 29 25 54 22 102
     
  9. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    My bad, it was Ladd with 1.06, I misread.

    Even then, you'd think if Ladd wasn't so mediocre this season offensively, Getzlaf's numbers would have been on par with last season. Or atleast better than this season.

    Ladd had 45 points, Toronto prospect and mediocre prospect Shaun Landolt had 43 points. Ladd may not have been the only problem, but he was a big disappointment I'm sure.

    The guy dropped off 30 points from a rookie season that was the reason he went at #4. As much as you want to defend Ladd, don't tell me -30 points is not a poor season, especially for the #4 pick in the draft.
     
  10. Mr.Brownov*

    Mr.Brownov* Guest

    I never stated that his numbers were poor.He wasn't consistant in his play this year.And it showed in the WJC.
     
  11. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Ok. I will try to discuss this rationally with you one last time.

    Yes, I'm rather disappointed in Ladd's statistical output in Calgary. I wish he had kept the pace or possibly improved it. He didn't, neither did Ladd. Schultz seemed to start slow statistically as well and his goal total was way off. A lot of things, statistically, didn't make a whole lot of sense.

    That being said, when I saw Ladd he played well. I saw one or two Hitmen games and I thought he was doing pretty good for what I expect of him as a player. Here lies the first problem. I think you were expecting the next Todd Bertuzzi, and that's why you're disappointed. Those are your own words at the prospect game:

    http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=747881&highlight=Ladd#post747881

    First period's almost done and these are the guys that have impressed me...

    - Andrew Ladd - Powerforward, Todd Bertuzzi'esque.

    And earlier:

    http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=434281&highlight=Ladd#post434281

    After Alexander Ovechkin, my personal favourites are...

    1. Cam Barker
    2. Johannes Salomonsson
    3. Andrew Ladd
    4. Wojtech Wolski
    5. Carl Soderberg


    In between your again obvious crush on Swedish players, I think you started with very lofty. unrealistic expectations for Ladd. It's no wonder that you think he's crap now. He's not going to turn into Todd Bertuzzi if that's what you were thinking.

    What irritates me is that you totally fail to see the intangibles he provides. And you continue to insist he isn't a worthy 4th overall pick. The problem is, in this draft, few players stood out.

    If you expect a Joni Pitkanen kind of 4th overall selection out of the 2004 draft, you are bound to be disappointed.

    If you're obsessed with stats, you should probably factor in his WJC stats, They are impressive for any player and compare favorably to the rest of the Canadian squad. He is in the upper half of Canadian point getters with one of the best +/-.

    But I think the stats are beyond the point. I just love how he played over there and still think of him as a very safe, versatile prospect. And I do think there is some upside in him. It is also more and more reported that he was hindered by injuries this year. I wish his offense was the same as last year but I don't think it's that much of a big deal.

    It doesn't matter that Chipchura is a similar player. There were a dozen players of similar value from the 4th slot down. It's not Ladd's fault that he happened to be the first selected. Could have been Tukonen or someone else as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't look much better and it isn't any more significant.
     
  12. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    I wanted to address that too. I think that's one way to look at it. You might be right. But if that's the case, that may speak more highly of Ladd and how he does make people around him better.

    I really think he is an outstanding player in that respect. I don't know where the fault lies if any. Maybe Ladd was injured, maybe he was unlucky, maybe it was Getzlaf who didn't try hard enough. Most likely, many on this team had a bit of an off year statistically so far.

    There's no doubt he had a lot more going for him last year but I loved the intangibles this year. Guys who sucked a lot more this year were players such as Thelen. Because he not only didn't get any points but played more and more like crap as the season went on and finally got kicked out. That's what I call a bad year.
     
  13. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    Yes, take my quotes from 16 months ago... that's very relevant to this conversation.

    Obviously not, the Hurricanes should and would be lucky if he turned into a good 3rd line player for them.

    My point with the 4th overall pick is that players of Ladd's calibre (Chipchura, Kesler, etc...) don't go 4th overall. They go later in the lottery or even later in the first round. My problem isn't with Ladd as much as it is with those who overhype the guy because he went that high.

    He's not that good, the Canes made a mistake taking him at #4 and it's obvious.

    His WJC numbers aren't relevant since it was possibly the greatest WJC team every assembled. His play was steady, yet unspectacular. Started off very slowly in the tournament in his offensive play, but managed to score some points on a tremendous team with great linemates.

    Many of the guys drafted after him have better potential and are better prospects. This guy has almost no offensive upside when you think of past top 5 picks. He's similar to the Scott Thornton pick by the Leafs in the 1989 draft.
     
  14. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    It is relevant in more ways than one. First, it indicates you built an idea of this player that was totally unrealistic. It is no wonder to me that you are so down on him. You projected Andrew Ladd as a player he couldn't be from the start.

    Not to mention that it's a good example of you being wrong. Something that is unfortunately common place. :D


    How could Ladd be overhyped? This board is populated by mouthbreathers who have looked at Ladd's stats and decided he isn't worth crap. Where's the hype?

    As for players of Ladd's calibre not being worth a 4th overall... in 2003, no. In 2002, no. But this is 2004. All there was left past Barker is a bunch of players in the exact same ballpark.

    As obvious as the Todd Bertuzzi-like qualities you saw in that guy earlier, I suppose? It may be obvious to you, but it certainly isn't obvious to me.

    I do not understand this. Was he or wasn't he a part of this team, selected above numerous quality players for the squad? Was he or wasn't he a big part of the team? Are his stats very satisfying for that type of player or are they not? Is he or isn't he comfortably ranked high in scoring on what you just called one of the best WJC squads ever assembled?

    I don't understand. On one hand, you attach a great importance to his WHL stats. On the other hand, his WJC stats are irrelevant.

    His play is supposed to be steady and not spectacular. The devil is in the details for such players. He didn't start slowly. He was on starting with the Russia challenge. It's just that a lot of armchair observers around here can't pick up intangibles, unfortunately for them. Ladd doesn't need to rack up points to be effective.

    Sutter recognized that, found him a place on the squad and at the end of the day, Ladd delivered admirably well.

    On potential I disagree with you. On offensive upside I completely agree.

    I think you put a lot of weight on offensive upside. I think you can do a lot more than that. If he can turn into a similar style player as Scott Hartnell, I will be satisfied.

    Once again, thinking of "past top 5 draft picks" is irrelevant. What matters is this draft, and those players. And I think considering the quality of *that particular draft*, he isn't such a bad pick at all.
     
  15. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    Seems like you're okay with taking potential 3rd line players like Ladd very high in the draft. Others like myself would rather go with players who have more talent and upside, while being pretty safe prospects.
     
  16. Monkeypox

    Monkeypox Registered User

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    Poor individual season

    Sorry to side track this Andrew Ladd thread, but if you are looking for a disappointing season, look no futher than Wild 2nd rounder Kyle Wanvig. After a promising 25 goal 41 point season at Houston in 03-04, Some of us Wild fans were hoping for a breakout season in 2004-5.

    It didn't happen; Kyle backslid to 10 goals and 24 points this season. Perhaps the influx of elite prospects into the AHL had something to do with it, cutting into his ice time perhaps. I haven't seen the Aeros play, but have heard reports of rather lackluster effort on Wanvig's part. As far as i know there were no health issues, as Wanvig has had ankle problems in the past. Overall, I'm disappointed. His upside is now looking more like Jason Wiemer than a power scoring winger.
     
  17. Aaron Vickers

    Aaron Vickers FC Hockey

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    Hard to call Landolt a role player at this point. He may project to be one, but was nothing close to that playing for the Hitmen. He centered their top line, played some point on the powerplay, and killed penalties. Definitely out of the role player criteria.

    Ladd's statistics might've been down, but in damn near every game I saw after the World Juniors, Ladd outworked, outhustled, and outplayed prettywell everyone on the Hitmen team.

    There's no doubt in my mind that he'd go Top 5 again.
     
  18. Aaron Vickers

    Aaron Vickers FC Hockey

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    I think you need to talk to more scouts. Every scout that I've talked to seems to love the guy. One scout last year laughed at me when I asked if Ladd was a bonafide top five talent in the draft, giving Ladd quite the thumbs up.

    When he makes the NHL, he's going to surprise a lot of people because he already plays a veteran like game.
     
  19. ZombieMatt

    ZombieMatt Registered User

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    :lol

    It's so cute when folks look at a few numbers and play scout.
     
  20. Golbez

    Golbez Registered User

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    How about Juraj Gracik?
    (Atlanta Thrashers round 5 #142 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft)

    I had high hopes that he would have the 2nd easier time adapting (after Meszaros) to the CHL among all Slovaks...so he goes to Tri-City and puts up 4 goals and 2 assists in 33 games. What the hell happened? :dunno:

    As for Kyle Wanvig, I am surprised that people have any great expectations for the guy...for many years, he's shown himself to be just a rather average minor-leagueish forward who just happens to be big. Some fans seemed to get thrown off because he dominated during his 19-20 season, when he could simply just physically overpower many lesser defensemen. :soap:
     
  21. AH

    AH Registered User

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    It's called applying moneyball theories to the sport of hockey. It's usually a trait of a certain group of fans of an NHL team from the largest city in Canada.

    What they dont realize is that even in most baseball circles, moneyball = idiotball.
     
  22. theo_60

    theo_60 Registered User

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    Carl,

    You're arguing about Andrew Ladd at number 4, but Blake Wheeler at number 5 is alright?

    Get your head on straight! Ladd is one of the safest bets to make the NHL. It was a weak draft, get it through your head. There wasn't a Marian Hossa at 12 or an Alexander Frolov at 20 or Tuomo Ruutu at 9.
     
  23. gars59

    gars59 Registered User

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    but radulov is good , no :)
     
  24. speeds

    speeds Registered User

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    Probably one of them will be, but I doubt anyone knows who yet.
     
  25. speeds

    speeds Registered User

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    I get what you are saying, but in fairness I do recall a bunch of lists at the time having Olesz grouped in that top 4, some with him ahead of Barker.

    Still too early to decide if those lists are right or wrong, but just thought I'd throw that in the pile.

    In any case, it's probably a minor quibble with your post, at most.

    *edit* searching through the archives, it seems as though my memory (no surprise) has failed me once again.

    Looks as though I was about the only guy who stil had Olesz top 3 as the draft neared, though he was top 7 on almost all of them, maybe a 50/50 split on him going ahead of Ladd (who I had ranked 14th).

    So I guess I'm guilty of projecting my position onto others. but I'll leave my post up anyways :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2005
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