Poll: Thoughts on Bill Peters

[Stickpucker]

Hey, you don’t have to convince me. I’m a “Maurice is a good coach who has lived with horrible teams” guy.




I mean... we have one of the absolute worst center groups in the league (bottom 3 without question) and one of the worst goalie tandems and a mediocre group of wingers and a very young defense. And we’re a game out of a playoff spot.

How much could we possibly be leaving on the table? Back when we were young and optimistic and making preseason predictions, pretty much everyone agreed that we would be on the bubble. We still actually are on the bubble, in spite of several players performing like a flaming bowl of ass. I’d chalk that up to at least decent coaching along the way.

I actually really like our wingers for playing a non grinding possession game. I see us constructed a bit like the Blackhawks who other than Toews had crap down the center and mediocre to bad goalies bailed out by defense and Quenneville s system.

 

[TheBigKahuna]

I've not seen anything from BP to make me think he has a clue as to what he's doing. Budget roster, or not.

 

[Stickpucker]

And I'll ask the corollary question here - what coach today do you think would best fit this roster?

Quenneville for the similarities I see to the Blackhawks and Budreau for getting the most offense out of his roster and being able to run and gun.

To answer my own question...Stl or Minny would be good fits for Peters but I don't see him getting better results than their current coaches.

Dundon might be impatient, but I don't think he's dumb. Francis is too beloved by this fan base for him to not give him a full year to turn it around. Peters would be much more likely to go, but I don't think he pulls that trigger until a few months into next year (if necessary).

I don't want to wait a few months when the season is lost. If he's not our guy we need to find someone in the off season.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Can someone please tell me what they see in Peters that is so compelling? I get that he is better than Muller, but it's Muller. And I know Babcock likes and respects him. And his system wins Corsi pretty routinely. But he was never a head coach, talented offensive players don't thrive in his system, the defensive system does suppress shot volume but at the expense of odd man rushes or shots from the slot, goalies seem to have their worst years when coming here from another system, and he is not consistent with his self proclaimed ice-time motivational tool.

I don't hate him, but I won't shed a tear if we move on.

I don't think I find Peters "so compelling", but I do think he's got the team playing a system that puts them in position to win games most of the time if they would just execute on an individual level.

So that's pretty much what I see in him. When the Canes lose, it's usually because they don't have the physical talent to win 50/50 battles against better players; they can't handle passes worth a damn and end up turning pucks over unnecessarily; and there are about 5 players on the team who really have a threatening shot when left open. Yet I see these guys getting opportunities and failing, over and over and over. That to me is where you look at the talent deficit between the Canes and their opponents, not at a fantasy that some other (unemployed) coach would have them all at the top of their games simultaneously for an entire season.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I don't want to wait a few months when the season is lost. If he's not our guy we need to find someone in the off season.

Waiting a few months doesn't necessarily mean the loss of a season. Take the Penguins, for instance. Michel Therrien coached the Pens for 57 games in the 2008-2009 season. With a record of 27-25-5, the team was 5 points out of a playoff spot when Therrien was fired on 2/15/09 and by Dan Byslma. Pittsburgh proceeded to go 18-3-4, finish 2nd in the Atlantic and 4th in the East and won the Stanley Cup.

Similarly, Mike Johnston coached the Pens to a 15-10-3 record in 2014-2015 (previously going 43-27-12) at which point he was fired and replaced by Mike Sullivan. They then went 33-16-5, were 2nd in the Metro and 2nd in the East and, again, won a Stanley Cup.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I actually really like our wingers for playing a non grinding possession game. I see us constructed a bit like the Blackhawks who other than Toews had crap down the center and mediocre to bad goalies bailed out by defense and Quenneville s system.

Crap down the center? They had Toews and Sharp, who at the time were both better than any center on our roster. They cycled through good bottom-6 guys like Bolland and Shaw, and they tossed in guys like Vermette and Handzus who would be better than our middle-6 guys. Basically they had better centers than us at every slot.

Mediocre to bad goalies... true if you mean specifically Niemi in 2010, but Crawford's a much better goalie than anyone we've had since at least Irbe. It's actually kind of surprising how underrated he's been. Here are his statistical ranks among all goalies since 2010:
- Save% (tied for 7th with Bishop and Luongo)
- Wins (tied for 6th with Luongo)
- Seasons above .915 (tied for 2nd with Holtby, Luongo, Lundqvist, Quick)
- Seasons above .920 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- Season above .925 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- GA% (maybe this is a junk stat, but it seems legit and he's tied for 6th again with Luongo)
- Quality Starts (10th)
- Quality Start % (tied for 4th with Lundqvist)
- Delta save% (2nd)
- Low danger save% (4th)
- Medium danger save% (2nd)
- High danger save% (12th)
- Goals saved above average (2nd)

Note that this is a mix of traditional and advanced stats, a mix of cumulative stats and percentages. Very nearly every standard of measurement points to him as a solid top-10 goalie over the past decade, and that's before you consider the guy has won 3 Stanley Cups as a starting goalie.

This turned into a longer post than I meant it to because I started messing around with stats, but point is: Coach Q had some pretty good centers and a pretty good goalie, aside from the Hart and Selke winning wingers and the Norris winning defenseman.

 

[Stickpucker]

Waiting a few months doesn't necessarily mean the loss of a season. Take the Penguins, for instance. Michel Therrien coached the Pens for 57 games in the 2008-2009 season. With a record of 27-25-5, the team was 5 points out of a playoff spot when Therrien was fired on 2/15/09 and by Dan Byslma. Pittsburgh proceeded to go 18-3-4, finish 2nd in the Atlantic and 4th in the East and won the Stanley Cup.

Similarly, Mike Johnston coached the Pens to a 15-10-3 record in 2014-2015 (previously going 43-27-12) at which point he was fired and replaced by Mike Sullivan. They then went 33-16-5, were 2nd in the Metro and 2nd in the East and, again, won a Stanley Cup.

To be fair that roster should have been competing for the president's trophy. If we shit the bed in October next season I see us 10th in the east even with a good hire.

 

[RodTheBawd]

If Skinner and Faulk were playing to the same level they did last year, f***, even half the level, we'd be talking about Peters as a Jack Adams finalist. That's not to say I have full trust in him, but he's not the main problem.

 

[HisIceness]

I voted for "Unsure".

At this point we're riding with him the rest of the season. How it unfolds will be more telling for me.

 

[Stickpucker]

Crap down the center? They had Toews and Sharp, who at the time were both better than any center on our roster. They cycled through good bottom-6 guys like Bolland and Shaw, and they tossed in guys like Vermette and Handzus who would be better than our middle-6 guys. Basically they had better centers than us at every slot.

Mediocre to bad goalies... true if you mean specifically Niemi in 2010, but Crawford's a much better goalie than anyone we've had since at least Irbe. It's actually kind of surprising how underrated he's been. Here are his statistical ranks among all goalies since 2010:
- Save% (tied for 7th with Bishop and Luongo)
- Wins (tied for 6th with Luongo)
- Seasons above .915 (tied for 2nd with Holtby, Luongo, Lundqvist, Quick)
- Seasons above .920 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- Season above .925 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- GA% (maybe this is a junk stat, but it seems legit and he's tied for 6th again with Luongo)
- Quality Starts (10th)
- Quality Start % (tied for 4th with Lundqvist)
- Delta save% (2nd)
- Low danger save% (4th)
- Medium danger save% (2nd)
- High danger save% (12th)
- Goals saved above average (2nd)

Note that this is a mix of traditional and advanced stats, a mix of cumulative stats and percentages. Very nearly every standard of measurement points to him as a solid top-10 goalie over the past decade, and that's before you consider the guy has won 3 Stanley Cups as a starting goalie.

This turned into a longer post than I meant it to because I started messing around with stats, but point is: Coach Q had some pretty good centers and a pretty good goalie, aside from the Hart and Selke winning wingers and the Norris winning defenseman.

My recollection was of Sharp playing wing in Chicago?

Were Bolland and Madden not playing top 9c around then? Then they moved to Frolik & Anismov after that?

When Chicago was on the rise they had Huet, Neimi, Khabibulin, Turco, and even Emery playing a good bit before Crawford took the reigns?

On the topic of Crawford he is a weird one...even this past offseason lots of Chicago fans were stating they felt Darling was better than Crawford and wish the org shipped Crawford to us. Looks like the front office made the right choice there...

 

[Canes]

If Skinner and Faulk were playing to the same level they did last year, ****, even half the level, we'd be talking about Peters as a Jack Adams finalist. That's not to say I have full trust in him, but he's not the main problem.

Maybe, just maybe Peters coaching of them is somewhat of a problem? Also, Victor Rask is even more of a trash can on skates than both of the guys you named.

If we can credit Peters for making Jeff somewhat of a respectable defensive player last year (just as an example), we can just as easily blame his horrendous play on Peters this year. Obviously the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Those three guys aren't even the only players regressing this year either. At some point you have to consider it's just not all on the players.

 

[sheriff bart]

I voted "unsure", but that's more of a see where the rest of the season goes. I don't dislike Peters, but at this point is he part of the problem or part of the solution? I'd like to see what happens with a new owner.

Where I think Peters has failed is in adjusting to the talent he has rather than keep pounding the square peg in the round hole. Players that won't hit, or won't go to the goal is an issue. Is that on the coach? He's the guy that supposedly has "the hammer" of ice time. Something is wrong in the coaching/management group that needs to be changed. At this point, I say kill em all and let God sort it out.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So the general board view is about what I expected.

1/4 says he should go, 1/4 says he should stay, 1/2 says unsure, but give him more time.

 

[sheriff bart]

Funny thing is, I voted unsure, and then said kill them all and let God sort it out. Maybe that's more of a "fire"

 

[Navin R Slavin]

Waiting a few months doesn't necessarily mean the loss of a season. Take the Penguins, for instance. Michel Therrien coached the Pens for 57 games in the 2008-2009 season. With a record of 27-25-5, the team was 5 points out of a playoff spot when Therrien was fired on 2/15/09 and by Dan Byslma. Pittsburgh proceeded to go 18-3-4, finish 2nd in the Atlantic and 4th in the East and won the Stanley Cup.

Similarly, Mike Johnston coached the Pens to a 15-10-3 record in 2014-2015 (previously going 43-27-12) at which point he was fired and replaced by Mike Sullivan. They then went 33-16-5, were 2nd in the Metro and 2nd in the East and, again, won a Stanley Cup.

WITH CROSBY AND MALKIN OMG ARE YOU SERIOUSLY MAKING THIS ARGUMENT WHY

 

[NotOpie]

If Skinner and Faulk were playing to the same level they did last year, ****, even half the level, we'd be talking about Peters as a Jack Adams finalist. That's not to say I have full trust in him, but he's not the main problem.

I also voted unsure, but man, it is such a quandry. Guys are regressing, but other guys are flourishing. But after last night's 3rd period, where I didn't think the guys were necessarily playing poorly or without effort, I'm not so sure that making a move now wouldn't be the best recourse. What was clear was that the team was playing "not to lose" in the last 20 minutes. That's on the coaching staff.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I wonder what would happen if we just played every game line the 6-5 Montreal game where we just said, "Defense? I don't need no stinkin' defense."

 

[tarheelhockey]

My recollection was of Sharp playing wing in Chicago?

Were Bolland and Madden not playing top 9c around then? Then they moved to Frolik & Anismov after that?

Sharp played center in 2010, and after that he became one of those guys like Galchenyuk where they’d move him in and out depending on the weather. They definitely did have Shaw in the C position during their later runs.

The thing is, any of the players named except an ancient Madden are better than Derek Ryan, and all are arguably better than Rask. Even for a team that felt uncomfortable with their center depth, they were decidedly stronger down the middle than the Canes.

When Chicago was on the rise they had Huet, Neimi, Khabibulin, Turco, and even Emery playing a good bit before Crawford took the reigns?

That goes back to the situation Q inherited when he first got there. Ever since they squeaked by with Niemi in Q’s first full season in Chicago, Crawford has been the #1 every season.

On the topic of Crawford he is a weird one...even this past offseason lots of Chicago fans were stating they felt Darling was better than Crawford and wish the org shipped Crawford to us. Looks like the front office made the right choice there...

The thing about Crawford, he’s not a Vezina caliber goalie but he’s just SO consistent. Knowing you’re going to get that .915-.920 level of play every year, with no .905 disasters thrown in, it’s a bedrock for the franchise. Better to have a guy like that than someone who’s got higher highs and lower lows.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Crap down the center? They had Toews and Sharp, who at the time were both better than any center on our roster. They cycled through good bottom-6 guys like Bolland and Shaw, and they tossed in guys like Vermette and Handzus who would be better than our middle-6 guys. Basically they had better centers than us at every slot.

They weren't Hurricanes bad (who have the worst group of centers in the League), but they certainly had a weak group of centers considering they're about as close to a dynasty as you can get in this era. They were saved by the fact that their second line had Patrick Kane on it.

I'm also pretty sure Shaw and Sharp are wingers. They got Handzus on his last legs.

As for the topic, keep him until a better coach becomes available. Firing him right now, when there are only unknowns and has-beens available makes no sense, it's change for the sake of change, and if we want that, I say trade Skinner at the deadline.

 

[Canes]

Yeah, finally start trading core player(s) after their value is the lowest it has been in some time. Would be perfect timing for a clueless GM like Ron Francis.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I think this applies.

Hot takes are so fun. It's hard not to go too over the top sometimes though. Need to get better at that to make them semi believable.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Man, I'd be so f***ing pissed if I were coaching/GMing a budget franchise, then got fired when a free-spending billionaire takes over.

 

[NotOpie]

Man, I'd be so ****ing pissed if I were coaching/GMing a budget franchise, then got fired when a free-spending billionaire takes over.

Must suck to be envious of the construction crew that built the new entry onto the ice...

 

[The Stranger]

Mediocre to bad goalies... true if you mean specifically Niemi in 2010, but Crawford's a much better goalie than anyone we've had since at least Irbe. It's actually kind of surprising how underrated he's been. Here are his statistical ranks among all goalies since 2010:
- Save% (tied for 7th with Bishop and Luongo)
- Wins (tied for 6th with Luongo)
- Seasons above .915 (tied for 2nd with Holtby, Luongo, Lundqvist, Quick)
- Seasons above .920 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- Season above .925 (tied for 7th with a bunch of guys)
- GA% (maybe this is a junk stat, but it seems legit and he's tied for 6th again with Luongo)
- Quality Starts (10th)
- Quality Start % (tied for 4th with Lundqvist)
- Delta save% (2nd)
- Low danger save% (4th)
- Medium danger save% (2nd)
- High danger save% (12th)
- Goals saved above average (2nd)

If Crawford was the starter for the Canes, I suspect his numbers would not be appreciably different than Ward's.

Crawford is a fine player, but his stats are bolstered by playing behind arguably the best team of his era.

Over that time period (2010-2018), Crawford has a .919 sv% while Ward is at .912 sv%.

I view Ward and Crawford as similar calibre players.

 

[MinJaBen]

I view Ward and Crawford as similar calibre players.

So if that was the case, we'd have two goalies this year with about a .910 sv% and 2.65 GAA and records of about 15-7-3 each instead of one with 0.892 sv% and 3.06 GAA and a record 9-14-6?

Yeah, that would be terrible...

 

[The Stranger]

So if that was the case, we'd have two goalies this year with about a .910 sv% and 2.65 GAA and records of about 15-7-3 each instead of one with 0.892 sv% and 3.06 GAA and a record 9-14-6?

Yeah, that would be terrible...

If Ward = Crawford, and Crawford = Darling, then Ward = Darling....right?

...not sure the transitive property of equality is applicable to goaltenders though.