Playoff Seeding System

[Jeffrey93]

The playoff system now is the best it has been since....well, since it was pretty much this exact same way before for many many years.

The league is broken down into two conferences and four divisions.

League > Conference > Division

So....to win the whole thing it makes perfect sense that you go....

Division > Conference > League

I don't care if the top two teams play each other in the first round.....you need to win 16 games to win the Cup.....you have to go through all the same teams.

Remember Toronto playing San Jose in the second round????

That's bad. Where we're at now is good. Play within your division. Possibly one outside team as the wild card. But it's mostly teams that have rivalries built......first round matchups will seem like Stanley Cup finals.

 

[patnyrnyg]

The playoff system now is the best it has been since....well, since it was pretty much this exact same way before for many many years.

The league is broken down into two conferences and four divisions.

League > Conference > Division

So....to win the whole thing it makes perfect sense that you go....

Division > Conference > League

I don't care if the top two teams play each other in the first round.....you need to win 16 games to win the Cup.....you have to go through all the same teams.

Remember Toronto playing San Jose in the second round????

That's bad. Where we're at now is good. Play within your division. Possibly one outside team as the wild card. But it's mostly teams that have rivalries built......first round matchups will seem like Stanley Cup finals.

I am a fan of the "progression". Win your division, win your conference, win your league.

The chance you would ever see the top 2 seeds in a 1-16 system play in the Cup finals is slim. From 94-2013, the top two seeds in the east played in the conference finals, one time 3 if you want to say the teams with the 2 best records. 94, Rangers were the 1 seed, Devils were the 3rd, but had a better record than the 2nd seeded Pens. In 2000, the same. Devils were 4th seed, but had a better record than 2nd and 3rd. In the NBA, the top teams hardly ever get upset. In the NHL, it happens fairly often.

 

[MNNumbers]

Jeffrey and pat,

I completely agree, except that I think that the schedule needs to match that. So, I really hope that, if Seattle becomes team #32, that the league to 4 divisions x 8 teams. Then, I want to see:
For schedule: h/h with everyone (because the league keeps talking about this like it's a good thing - so it will stay. There is no chance it goes away now..) And, all the rest in your division. That is a 5/4 - 2 schedule.

Then, top4 from each division make the playoffs. 2 rounds there.

That leaves 4 teams. At that point, I would re-seed. Under this schedule, there is no favorite pairing of divisions. That is, the Metro plays the Pac the same as it plays the Atl, so there is no reason to force the Metro and Atl to play in the SC semi-finals.

That's my preference.

 

[LadyStanley]

The best-of-seven-games series in the AHL playoffs are 2-2-1-1-1 or 2-3-2 depending on the travel time between cities. IIRC, it's 4 hours (flight time).

That clumping would help if Pacific division team is up against Atlantic division team.

Pushing the start to "8pm ET" across the board only happens in SCF. And for Pacific division teams' fans that means leaving work 2-3 hours early, fighting heavy commute traffic (California has the worst in the world IIRC) to get to the arena (often having issues with parking as lots for evening games haven't emptied of workers), and finishing the game often with the sun about to set (in regulation).

It would make it easier to do a 1-8 seeding in each conference. Probably cannot get away without guaranteeing top 3 in division, plus two wild cards. May even have to seed the six "top" teams 1-6 with wild cards at 7 and 8.

Until/if the world goes to a single time zone, there will always be issues of disparity for start times.

There's isn't a way to satisfy 100% of the teams in terms of travel, but would increase the potential for interdivision rivalries.

 

[patnyrnyg]

The best-of-seven-games series in the AHL playoffs are 2-2-1-1-1 or 2-3-2 depending on the travel time between cities. IIRC, it's 4 hours (flight time).

That clumping would help if Pacific division team is up against Atlantic division team.

Pushing the start to "8pm ET" across the board only happens in SCF. And for Pacific division teams' fans that means leaving work 2-3 hours early, fighting heavy commute traffic (California has the worst in the world IIRC) to get to the arena (often having issues with parking as lots for evening games haven't emptied of workers), and finishing the game often with the sun about to set (in regulation).

It would make it easier to do a 1-8 seeding in each conference. Probably cannot get away without guaranteeing top 3 in division, plus two wild cards. May even have to seed the six "top" teams 1-6 with wild cards at 7 and 8.

Until/if the world goes to a single time zone, there will always be issues of disparity for start times.

There's isn't a way to satisfy 100% of the teams in terms of travel, but would increase the potential for interdivision rivalries.

Exactly. I can't imagine the griping on here when the scenario I brought up earlier happens. Kings play Caps in the first round in a 7-game series, win and then play the Canes in the 2nd round. Win, and then the complaining about them playing Montreal in the 3rd round after montreal played Ottawa in the first round and Toronto in the 2nd. We would have people calculating the mileage and flying times the Kings had to face compared with what the Habs had to do. Then, someone will come up with a system where the top-16 teams make the play-offs, and opponents are matched up using a logarithm so as to have as close to an equal amount of travel for each team in each round. They will also add in some "miles" credit for those who have to change time-zones compared to those who do not.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Jeffrey and pat,

I completely agree, except that I think that the schedule needs to match that. So, I really hope that, if Seattle becomes team #32, that the league to 4 divisions x 8 teams. Then, I want to see:
For schedule: h/h with everyone (because the league keeps talking about this like it's a good thing - so it will stay. There is no chance it goes away now..) And, all the rest in your division. That is a 5/4 - 2 schedule.

Then, top4 from each division make the playoffs. 2 rounds there.

That leaves 4 teams. At that point, I would re-seed. Under this schedule, there is no favorite pairing of divisions. That is, the Metro plays the Pac the same as it plays the Atl, so there is no reason to force the Metro and Atl to play in the SC semi-finals.

That's my preference.

I get what you are saying, but there are tv scenarios as well. Assuming, you are a Wild fan, so I will make the 3rd round teams and seeds: 1) Sharks, 2) Bruins 3) Wild 4) Rangers. Sharks-Rangers, Bruins-Wild. What time are the games going to start? Games in SJ at 10? That would kill ratings in NY. All at 8eastern? That will hurt ratings in the Bay area. I know, they are used to it, but it is still not ideal. At least with Wild-Sharks, they can do 8pm central start times. Not ideal for the Bay Area to start at 6, but it is better than 5.

 

[MNNumbers]

^^^
Ha. So true. The griping would be fierce.

TV times.....Hmm.....

Now, I understand the idea that we maximize TV revenue. So, the broadcasters would be happier with Central v Pacific.... That makes sense. Also, the broadcasters would be happier with, eg, Bos v Rangers.

Start times.... Yeah, Bos v San Jose is just bad for both coasts for road games.

I need to think about that more.

One thought, of course, is that you could have Calgary, Chicago, Detroit and Pittsburgh. And, that's 2 hours difference, and not nearly as big a deal. But, even then, you are right, because Seattle is going to be a Pac team, so there will be 6 teams in the PTZ. And, therefore, 2/3 odds or a little less that you get a cross-continent semi-finals.

 

[LadyStanley]

Five PT zone teams, with Seattle. Arizona doesn't observe daylight savings, they are on Mountain Standard time always.

 

[LadyStanley]

And I forget VGK. Sigh. During playoffs, Arizona matches PT

 

[cheswick]

I'm not against a one year try for a 1-16 system. Would it make sense to have a 2 home - 3 away - 2 home format to minimize travel time like baseball? Habs wont be making playoffs for a while so experiment at will.

It's already been tried. In the 1979-80 season.



The initial re-alignment proposal from the NLH (which was shot down by the PA) called for complete divisional playoffs, no wild cards. The PA didn't like it due to imbalanced conferences, so the wild cards were added. Which I don't quite understand how that made things any fairer. Anyway since the league is expanding to Seattle making 4 equitable divisions, I think revisiting completely within division playoffs may be something they look at.

 

[Detelethisaccount]

The playoff system now is the best it has been since....well, since it was pretty much this exact same way before for many many years.

The league is broken down into two conferences and four divisions.

League > Conference > Division

So....to win the whole thing it makes perfect sense that you go....

Division > Conference > League

I don't care if the top two teams play each other in the first round.....you need to win 16 games to win the Cup.....you have to go through all the same teams.

Remember Toronto playing San Jose in the second round????

That's bad. Where we're at now is good. Play within your division. Possibly one outside team as the wild card. But it's mostly teams that have rivalries built......first round matchups will seem like Stanley Cup finals.

Exactly and over the four years we have had this system we have had one series past the second round (LA vs NY 2014 Finals) that didn't go to six games and 3 of the 5 games in that series went to overtime, two to double overtime. Only 3 series in the second round didn't go to six games. Four years is not the longest sample size, but I think its safe to say this playoff format is working exactly as intended, developing inter-division rivalries and creating close playoff series.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I'm not sure where to put this, but there is a very interesting situation brewing in the East right now. I am supposing that Crayton, among others, might chime in here..

Right now, in the east, the Top3 teams are all from the Atlantic, and the next 5 are from the Metro. This is true even when adjusting for the schedule differences between the divisions. (I have an algorithm that does that perfectly - statistics and all, you know.)

As we know, that means the playoff brackets would be:
1/8 and 2/3 in one bracket and,
4/7 and 5/6 in the other.

And, there is something about that which seems unfair.

I have written a long set of criteria which, I thought, fixed every piece of all the possibilities for the playoffs, but this one is so unique that even my long list is unable to handle it.

Personally, I think that the East should just go to 1-8 seeding. That's because everyone is ETZ, and so travel is fine. But, the West can't do that because 3 TZs, etc.

So, how do you write the rules to accommodate this situation and get a 'fair' bracket in the West? And, I know this is a hypothetical discussion, because the NHL will never go to 'different system for East and West' and also because the likely thing is, when they get to 32 teams, that it's going to be 2 rounds in division.

Comments?

If you go to a balanced schedule fans will complain theres no rivalries and too many games out of the time zone

If you dont see every team at least once fans will complain they dont see enough of the star players in the other conference

If the regular season isnt balanced, fans will complain seeding isnt fair

Trust me, theres one consistent. Fans will always complain. Since you cant make fans happy reguardless whatever you do, just make the smart business move

Promote less travel and try to encourage rivalries. And stop looking for new things to complain about

 

[NSHPreds1835]

There is just a disparity between the schedule between east and west that seeding 1-16 wouldn’t be fair, imo

I’m on the record saying when Seattle joins the league moves to a 4-conference, 8 division formats

No need for 4 conferences, just have 4 divisions in the west and 4 in the east with each having 4 teams.

 

[KevFu]

I absolutely hate the H/A vs everyone. Too many games of the schedule eaten up.

I like the 4x4x4x4 format. Although you’d have a LOT of issues reaching a consensus on the groups.

I’d probably go:

MON-BOS-TOR-OTT
NYR-NYI-NJD-PHI
TB-FLA-PIT-WAS
CBJ-DET-BUF-CAR

VAN-EDM-CAL-SEA
SJ-ANA-LA-VGK
ARZ-COL-NASH-DAL
MIN-WIN-STL-CHI

But more importantly,

6 games vs 3 division = 18
4 games vs 12 conference = 48
1 game vs 16 other conf = 16

82 Games.

 

[patnyrnyg]

If you go to a balanced schedule fans will complain theres no rivalries and too many games out of the time zone

If you dont see every team at least once fans will complain they dont see enough of the star players in the other conference

If the regular season isnt balanced, fans will complain seeding isnt fair

Trust me, theres one consistent. Fans will always complain. Since you cant make fans happy reguardless whatever you do, just make the smart business move

Promote less travel and try to encourage rivalries. And stop looking for new things to complain about

Which is stupid considering how many games are on tv nowadays. This isn't 1982 when people in NY only had a few opportunities to see Gretzky.

Yes, fans will always complain.

 

[patnyrnyg]

I absolutely hate the H/A vs everyone. Too many games of the schedule eaten up.

I like the 4x4x4x4 format. Although you’d have a LOT of issues reaching a consensus on the groups.

I’d probably go:

MON-BOS-TOR-OTT
NYR-NYI-NJD-PHI
TB-FLA-PIT-WAS
CBJ-DET-BUF-CAR

VAN-EDM-CAL-SEA
SJ-ANA-LA-VGK
ARZ-COL-NASH-DAL
MIN-WIN-STL-CHI

But more importantly,

6 games vs 3 division = 18
4 games vs 12 conference = 48
1 game vs 16 other conf = 16

82 Games.

I like it.

 

[Burke the Legend]

The home & home inter conference games are low quality and such a waste of 40% of the schedule. The league really needs to ditch it. Should be a lot more divisional games.

Less motivation since games have less playoff consequence, less familiarity so more generic gameplans, less intensity because of travel and low rivalry. Overall also it creates on emphasis on "the show" aspect, like teams coming to town are like a circus or theatre tour visit or something and being a competitive major sporting league is of secondary considation.

 

[Flukeshot]

I absolutely hate the H/A vs everyone. Too many games of the schedule eaten up.

I like the 4x4x4x4 format. Although you’d have a LOT of issues reaching a consensus on the groups.

I’d probably go:

MON-BOS-TOR-OTT
NYR-NYI-NJD-PHI
TB-FLA-PIT-WAS
CBJ-DET-BUF-CAR

VAN-EDM-CAL-SEA
SJ-ANA-LA-VGK
ARZ-COL-NASH-DAL
MIN-WIN-STL-CHI

But more importantly,

6 games vs 3 division = 18
4 games vs 12 conference = 48
1 game vs 16 other conf = 16

82 Games.

I don't mind it. How do you determine playoffs? Division winners plus 4 wildcard in each conference?

 

[cheswick]

Which is stupid considering how many games are on tv nowadays. This isn't 1982 when people in NY only had a few opportunities to see Gretzky.

Yes, fans will always complain.

Its stupid to want to watch a player live rather than on tv? Yeah I'm sure that's an argument teams want to make to their season ticket holders who are paying thousands of dollars to watch players play live

 

[Burke the Legend]

Its stupid to want to watch a player live rather than on tv? Yeah I'm sure that's an argument teams want to make to their season ticket holders who are paying thousands of dollars to watch players play live

You don't speak for all ticket buyers. Not everyone is thrilled at 40% of home games being low-demand non-conference games and I really question this orthodoxy that ticket holders prefer it. I guarantee you there's a lot more buzz in Montreal for the Bruins, Leafs, Sens, etc. in town than even McJesus brings.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I don't mind it. How do you determine playoffs? Division winners plus 4 wildcard in each conference?

Yeah. I guess.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Its stupid to want to watch a player live rather than on tv? Yeah I'm sure that's an argument teams want to make to their season ticket holders who are paying thousands of dollars to watch players play live

There are a lot more fans watching on tv than buying tickets. Does the fan who pays good money for his cable package not matter? This isn't basketball. The start player in hockey is not playing 95% of the game and the offense is not running through that player the entire game.

Secondly, I am buying tickets to see the RANGERS. Not, the superstars of the league. The division and conference games are more meaningful and you can feel the difference in atmosphere. Yes, even for the Oilers this year.

 

[patnyrnyg]

You don't speak for all ticket buyers. Not everyone is thrilled at 40% of home games being low-demand non-conference games and I really question this orthodoxy that ticket holders prefer it. I guarantee you there's a lot more buzz in Montreal for the Bruins, Leafs, Sens, etc. in town than even McJesus brings.

I agree. Besides, it is not even McDavid. If the Habs offered two 5-game packages to fans and package A was a game against the Leafs, Bruins, Senators, Red Wings, Sabres and package B was a game against the Oilers, Flames, Coyotes, Kings, Sharks, I'd be willing to be package A would be by far the more popular and in-demand package.

 

[BOGO]

The whole wildcard system in place today is from the imbalanced divisions. I think you'll see them stick with the current format at least until the 32nd team comes in and they can see the format as it was intended without the wildcard.

However they do the playoff format, I have always felt like the regular season schedule needs to match the playoff seeding. I.E. Division Schedule = Division Playoffs, Conference Schedule = Conference Playoffs (1vs8), League Schedule = League Playoffs (1vs16).

It is very difficult to create a balanced schedule with 32 teams where everyone plays each other an equal number of times (League Schedule). The closest you could do would be every team plays every team 3 times, but that would be 93 games. You could try 2 games against the opposite conference (home/away) for 32 games and then 3 games against the same conference for 45 games to get a 77 game schedule. That is a slightly more conference based schedule but it would help to reduce the travel. Maybe for that reason you make the first round a conference round and then after that it all reseeds to a league-wide ranking where you could have East vs. West.

Division schedule/playoff with 32 teams you go with 2 games against each outside conference team for home/away (32 games), 2 games against same conference outside your division for home/away (16 games) and then 4 games within your division for 3 home/away (32 games) which results in 80 games.

Conference schedule playoff would go 2 games against outside conference teams for home away (32 games), and 4 games against teams in your conference for 2 home/away (60 games) but then you end up with a 92 game season.

The division schedule is the closest thing to the current season of 82 games and likely why we will not see any changes until contraction in about 10 years

 

[Mkdaman1818]

This current playoff system is trash. Go back to 1-8 in each conference, and reseed after each round. Make 4 4-team divisions in each conference, and give division winners home ice advantage, just like the NFL (i.e. seeds 1-4 in each conference).

Now for the alignment - move the Panthers to Quebec, move Coyotes to Houston, and expand to Seattle. This gives you 4 team divisions and you can draw it up like so:

EC:

Northeast: Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec
Metropolitan: NY Rangers, NY Islanders, NJ Devils, Philadelphia
Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Detroit
Southeast: Washington, Tampa, Carolina, Columbus

West:

Northwest: Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg
Pacific: Seattle, LA, San Jose, Anaheim
Central: Colorado, Minnesota, St. Louis, Chicago
Southwest: Vegas, Dallas, Houston, Nashville

And if you wanna tackle the scheduling; make 80 game schedules.

Home and away for the opposite conference = 16*2=32
3 games vs interconference teams not in your division = 12*3=36
4 games vs division opponents = 3*4=12