Playoff Officiating

bluesfanforlife1992

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Jul 3, 2015
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Just curious what is everyone's thoughts on playoff officiating??

Do you like that they called less than regular season?
Do you wish they called it more in line with regular season? With

After watching the game 5 Tampa/Washington game with only 1 penalty called the whole game it made me think about this.
 

EastonBlues22

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Penalties are actually called more frequently (on average) in the playoffs than the regular season, and have been for years.

The NHL Playoffs and Penalties

Penalty Comparison: Playoffs vs. Regular Season

Yes, penalties are up in Stanley Cup Playoffs



I didn't list it above because I couldn't identify it in a quick search, but I remember reading a study once that broke down penalties called by game in the series (game 1 through game 7). The only game that didn't come out ahead or even with the regular season average in terms of number of penalties called was game 7. Refs do tend to put their whistles away in game 7s. For all others, not so much. Overall, penalties are up.
 

Majorityof1

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Mar 6, 2014
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Just curious what is everyone's thoughts on playoff officiating??

Do you like that they called less than regular season?
Do you wish they called it more in line with regular season? With

After watching the game 5 Tampa/Washington game with only 1 penalty called the whole game it made me think about this.

I for one think its ridiculous. Easton can cite all the research he wants. However the Blues have not gotten a single call for them this playoffs. NOT...ONE....SINGLE....CALL. Schwartz gets injured, but do the Blues get a call....NO. Granted we haven't been called for a single penalty either, so there is that. But man, have the refs been absent from Blues playoff games this season. :sarcasm:
 

Bluesguru

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If the NHL really wants to showcase their stars and stress speed and skill then they'll need to make it happen in the playoffs too, and that means having the Refs crack down early in the 1st period of every game to set the tone.

I mean last years finals between the Preds and Pens was boring, ugly hockey. If you want to see Crosby, Malkin and Kessel do their thing, then the Refs need to set the tone and make these guys play hockey.

I'm all for hockey the way it was back in the day but if the NHL wants to market speed and skill and make all these rule changes, then go the distance and police the darn thing in the playoffs too and make these teams try to beat each other with speed and skill and not just beat on one another.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Penalties are actually called more frequently (on average) in the playoffs than the regular season, and have been for years.

The NHL Playoffs and Penalties

Penalty Comparison: Playoffs vs. Regular Season

Yes, penalties are up in Stanley Cup Playoffs



I didn't list it above because I couldn't identify it in a quick search, but I remember reading a study once that broke down penalties called by game in the series (game 1 through game 7). The only game that didn't come out ahead or even with the regular season average in terms of number of penalties called was game 7. Refs do tend to put their whistles away in game 7s. For all others, not so much. Overall, penalties are up.


I think we've had this debate before, but I don't remember.

I disagree with your assessment that penalties are called more frequently. I watch tons of regular season games and tons of playoff games and I can say with 100% certainty that there are more "callable offenses" committed in a playoff game than there are in a regular season game. The playoffs are generally more violent, there are more hooks and slashes and there are more screens/picks/obstructions than there are in regular season games. More total infractions are getting called, but a smaller percentage of things that could result in a penalty get called. A thing that's get called 75% of the time in the regular season may only get called 25% of the time in the playoffs, which leads to it happening way more.

If refs call 7 penalties out of 20 things that 'could' be penalties in the regular season and then call 8 penalties in a game where those same things happen 60 times, it means that they aren't calling penalties more frequently in relation to what is actually happening. I fully believe that this is what happens in the playoffs and that the increase in total penalty numbers occurs because it inevitably leads to things getting out of control and forcing the refs to call a freaking penalty.

NHL players are smart and competitive. When you consistently call an action a penalty, they stop doing that action. When you stop calling it a penalty, they start doing it again if it can gain them a competitive edge.

Until we get a reliable metric to measure missed calls that utilizes a consistent standard from October to June, I will trust my eyes over the stats.
 

EastonBlues22

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I think we've had this debate before, but I don't remember.

I disagree with your assessment that penalties are called more frequently. I watch tons of regular season games and tons of playoff games and I can say with 100% certainty that there are more "callable offenses" committed in a playoff game than there are in a regular season game. The playoffs are generally more violent, there are more hooks and slashes and there are more screens/picks/obstructions than there are in regular season games. More total infractions are getting called, but a smaller percentage of things that could result in a penalty get called. A thing that's get called 75% of the time in the regular season may only get called 25% of the time in the playoffs, which leads to it happening way more.

If refs call 7 penalties out of 20 things that 'could' be penalties in the regular season and then call 8 penalties in a game where those same things happen 60 times, it means that they aren't calling penalties more frequently in relation to what is actually happening.
I actually agree that the standards are often different in the playoffs.

I'm just challenging the widely accepted belief that there are fewer penalties (as in total numbers) called in the playoffs. That's just objectively not true, even though people often assume that it is because they see those standards shift as conclude that logically there must be fewer penalties because players are "getting away" with more. Yes, they are...but no, there isn't.

We've seen time and again that shifting standards don't push penalty numbers strongly in one way or the other over the long haul. Players quickly adapt, and push the envelope as much as they can until they start getting called again. How the refs are calling things changes the texture of the game, but it generally doesn't devalue things like special teams play (as is often assumed as a byproduct of this fallacious line of thought).
 

Reality Czech

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I think we've had this debate before, but I don't remember.

I disagree with your assessment that penalties are called more frequently. I watch tons of regular season games and tons of playoff games and I can say with 100% certainty that there are more "callable offenses" committed in a playoff game than there are in a regular season game. The playoffs are generally more violent, there are more hooks and slashes and there are more screens/picks/obstructions than there are in regular season games. More total infractions are getting called, but a smaller percentage of things that could result in a penalty get called. A thing that's get called 75% of the time in the regular season may only get called 25% of the time in the playoffs, which leads to it happening way more.

If refs call 7 penalties out of 20 things that 'could' be penalties in the regular season and then call 8 penalties in a game where those same things happen 60 times, it means that they aren't calling penalties more frequently in relation to what is actually happening. I fully believe that this is what happens in the playoffs and that the increase in total penalty numbers occurs because it inevitably leads to things getting out of control and forcing the refs to call a freaking penalty.

NHL players are smart and competitive. When you consistently call an action a penalty, they stop doing that action. When you stop calling it a penalty, they start doing it again if it can gain them a competitive edge.

Until we get a reliable metric to measure missed calls that utilizes a consistent standard from October to June, I will trust my eyes over the stats.

Good discussion so far, and you bring up some good observations. Unfortunately I don't watch much non-Blues playoff hockey over here in Europe. Not really easy on the sleep schedule.

I was just thinking about the stats that Easton brought up earlier in the post. Is it possible that there are more minor penalties in the playoffs because you often get those end-of-the-game scrums that result in a ton of penalties for both sides? It seems that many playoff series, especially those with divisional rivals, have that one game where there are a ton of penalties all bunched together. Just a thought. It's always seemed to me that there are fewer penalty calls in the playoffs, especially when you factor in OT games which have few penalties after 60 mins.

I've always preferred refs letting things go a bit in the playoffs. Playoff games are different from regular season games, more intensity and more at stake, so I don't have a problem with refs letting more things go in the playoffs. I guess there is a lot more pressure on refs now with all the extra slashing, interference and other fouls they are trying to cut down on.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Just curious what is everyone's thoughts on playoff officiating??

Do you like that they called less than regular season?
Do you wish they called it more in line with regular season? With

After watching the game 5 Tampa/Washington game with only 1 penalty called the whole game it made me think about this.

I just realized that I didn't answer your question at all. I don't mind relaxing the standard slightly during the playoffs, but I think it goes too far every year. The level of obstruction and stick work allowed during the playoffs is ridiculous and I wish the officiating standard was closer to the regular season that what you see by the Conference Final. It was obvious last night that a 2 goal lead in the 3rd period was insurmountable because Washington was able to obstruct and slow things to a crawl and the same thing happened at the end of the Vegas/Jets series.
 

Renard

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Nov 14, 2011
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Mike Keenan used to say that he built his teams for the playoffs. What he meant by that, at least in part, was that the referees called the games differently in the playoffs and he wanted players who could take advantage of the difference.

It seemed to me that he was right about the referees, but was it/is it all guess work? Do teams have guys who watched recorded games all the time to see what is and isn't called? Do coaches meet with the team before the game to tell them "Frasier is the referee tonight and he doesn't call goalie interference so go ahead and crowd the goalie"?
 

wannabebluesplayer

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Apr 16, 2012
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Mike Keenan used to say that he built his teams for the playoffs. What he meant by that, at least in part, was that the referees called the games differently in the playoffs and he wanted players who could take advantage of the difference.

It seemed to me that he was right about the referees, but was it/is it all guess work? Do teams have guys who watched recorded games all the time to see what is and isn't called? Do coaches meet with the team before the game to tell them "Frasier is the referee tonight and he doesn't call goalie interference so go ahead and crowd the goalie"?

I think some players, like Subban (still hate him) understand that there's a different standard and they play up to it rather than buck against it. I think you see it quite a bit in the playoffs where certain players can play up to that line, but not cross it and get the other player or players to retaliate and get called. I remember Dustin Penner and some other Kings were masters at that when the Blues got swept in the second round by them. The Kings players were getting away with all manner of things and it was clearly frustrating the Blues.
 

EastonBlues22

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Easton, what years does that study encompass?
Between the four, I believe they cover everything since 2006 through 2016, and the first round or so of this season. Essentially everything since the first lockout, minus 2017 and the last two rounds of this year.

Someone probably has probably looked at 2017 as well, but I honestly didn't feel like it was necessary to waste the time looking for it. The trend over the last decade or so is pretty clear.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Mike Keenan used to say that he built his teams for the playoffs. What he meant by that, at least in part, was that the referees called the games differently in the playoffs and he wanted players who could take advantage of the difference.

It seemed to me that he was right about the referees, but was it/is it all guess work? Do teams have guys who watched recorded games all the time to see what is and isn't called? Do coaches meet with the team before the game to tell them "Frasier is the referee tonight and he doesn't call goalie interference so go ahead and crowd the goalie"?

I can't speak to how it looks in a pro locker room. When I was playing D2 club hockey, there were comments/reminders about who was officiating that night and how they liked to call a game. By my sophomore year, I knew exactly which refs in our conference would allow contact in my crease and which guys would allow me to use my stick to keep guys out of my crease. Heck, even in high school guys knew who called games tight and who let things go. Both of those are miles below the NHL and it was part of the locker room buzz.

I'd be shocked if NHL teams didn't have scouting reports for each ref and I'd wager most have some type of data on the difference between regular season and playoff officiating. Even if they don't, players know the refs. They remember the ref that called them for the ticky tack slash and they remember who was reffing when they got in 6 different scrums without a penalty being called.
 

wannabebluesplayer

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Apr 16, 2012
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Let's say that was a rough night on officiating for Game 1 IMO.
Yeah, I felt for Washington on that tying goal. That was a pure cross-check to the back of Carlson that directly led to Vegas (Reaves) tying. it. That's a rough one to not call. Even my wife asked me how it wasn't waived off and a penalty called. I simply said, "welcome to the NHL playoffs".
 

Stealth JD

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horrible crew...talk about letting them play. it appears as though anything goes this series...so I'd be a little weary of Tom Wilson going even more 'Tom Wilson' on the Knights star players. The cross-check by Reaves was about as blatant of a missed-call as there is, so no doubt it's a black eye on the sport, and has laid the groundwork for a potentially dangerous Finals.
 

bluesfanforlife1992

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Jul 3, 2015
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horrible crew...talk about letting them play. it appears as though anything goes this series...so I'd be a little weary of Tom Wilson going even more 'Tom Wilson' on the Knights star players. The cross-check by Reaves was about as blatant of a missed-call as there is, so no doubt it's a black eye on the sport, and has laid the groundwork for a potentially dangerous Finals.

Completely agree. Reaves play you could have called either cross check or interference. The puck isn't even close. I was ticked off. Really 2 of Vegas goal last night were off of bad call or no call.

That 2nd goal by Karlsson after that icing. I think Trotz hot lap had more speed than Engelland on the way back. If Engelland skated past the blue line, guess what no icing because that puck was slowing down so much and he would have caught it but he just glided along. They should have waved it off. The icing stuff is ridiculous.

Reaves play was penalty no matter how you look at it. Cross check or interference but call something.

Tuch butt end of his stick nailed the dman on Washington on a play. Obviously call.

Marchessault play supposedly he did something to Oshie which is why Wilson went after him (I didn't see anything yet and haven't watch a replay of game).

Wilson play in regular season is 5 10 and suspension. Playoff is 2. That was dirty late and blantant. Yes I know there was no head shot, but it was a major.

McNabb 2 handed slash Eller stick which is why he missed the open the net.

That was the obvious stuff to call and they didn't call most of it.

I don't mind the let them play, but you have to call the obvious stuff.
 
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hullderko

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Apr 21, 2015
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Yeah, I felt for Washington on that tying goal. That was a pure cross-check to the back of Carlson that directly led to Vegas (Reaves) tying. it. That's a rough one to not call. Even my wife asked me how it wasn't waived off and a penalty called. I simply said, "welcome to the NHL playoffs".
This. I now disagree with the "let the boys play" mentality that I used to love so much back in the old Blues vs. Blackhawks days. I must be getting old.

Two refs need to catch more penalties, or get rid of one of them. They call little minor accidental trips or slashing on stick lifts that happen away from the play and then miss stuff like Reaves cross checking his way to a goal. Reaves hacks people in the back of the knee on every shift. Vegas clutched, grabbed and hooked their way over the Jets. Putting your finger in someone's ear or licking someone should be a penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct. Blatant punches to the face in the scrums should be a fighting major. It's an easy call when a D accidentally flips the puck over the glass, but he can come into a scrum and throw multiple punches with gloves on to someone square in the face with no penalty. Good grief.
 

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