Players were so horrible when Orr played!

GNick42

Guest
The league doubled in size exactly when Orr burst onto the NHL. Then added more teams shortly after, not to mention the WHA. The talent pool was spread out at a all-time low....but Orr is still one of the greatest players ever. He looked better than he was but any superstar would have looked that way....Rocket, Lemieux, Gretzky, Crosby, etc...
 

Crosbyfan

Registered User
Nov 27, 2003
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Certain players from the 70s may not be able to translate their games to the 00s, simply based on the changes in systems, speed, and subsequent quick thinking.

But after watching the Summit Series, I'll argue 'til I die that you could plunk Valeri Kharlamov circa 1972 - without today's amenities - into today's NHL and he would compete for the Art Ross. He was fast enough, well-conditioned enough, and sharp enough to make an easy transition. Haven't seen any complete Orr games, but I can only assume he'd be a similar case.

Kharlamov would not have competed for the Art Ross in his day, though he might have been top 10 in scoring a few times. I agree his game would translate well into the present NHL.
 

BNHL

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Dec 22, 2006
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Orr had the hockey instincts that were superior to his peers and would be now also. He wouldn't skate through teams like he used to because players are so much better now but he would still be the best.

Players are not more talented now. There is now an international pool of talent that is harvested and players are bigger,stronger,faster and more fit. Shean Donovan is very fast,Marco Sturm is very fast,Todd Marchant is very fast but these players are average players. Games are mostly played at mid speed and not top speed and hockey magic begins with a gift in the mind. All the players can play the notes but only a few can make music and this has nothing to do with speed,size,or fitness. Some players (Orr) can make music and do it with speed and a terrific shot. BTW Orr's fitness level is vastly underrated as he was in the 185 range year round unlike Tkachuk or others who balloon over the summer. The gift is in the mind and the body is the tool used to express it..
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
He hit the nail on the head. If you had a 30 sec highlight reel of Crosby without ever seeing a game today, you'd think the same thing. Orr didn't go through the whole team every time he was on the ice. Someone could put a whole video of Orr getting rocked by hits if they wanted too and you'd think the league was tough to play in.

Now take that highlight reel of Crosby and add in the crappy television production you had and.....well, you should get the idea.
if you put together a clip of Pavel Bure's greatest goals you would come to the same conclusion about players in the 1990's.
 

mooseOAK*

Guest
Yeh, players are so much better now. Orr got to play against weak players like Park, Hull, Howe, Mahovolich, mikita, beliveau, horton, cournoyer, Plante, hall etc.:sarcasm:

Yes, there were other great players then. But, players now and especially defencemen are bigger, stronger, and more mobile than back in Orr's day.
 

Skraut

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Jul 31, 2006
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Sigh, what's next?

Bobby Orr's Salary $200,000 per season

Zdeno Chara's Salary $7,500,000 per season

Man, Chara is 375 TIMES better than Orr, Get him out of the Hall Of Fame!!! :sarcasm:
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,164
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Vancouver
Having seen every game Orr played....and 40 more years since he started...I respectfully submit that you couldn't be more wrong.

That's because your mind has evolved with the game to keep up with it. If we transported 1970 you to now, your mind wouldn't be able to comprehend the quality and level of play and you'd probably have a heart attack. :sarcasm: :D
 

Sens Rule

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Sep 22, 2005
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Albert Einstein was sooooo overrated!!! He doesn't deserve to be considered one of the best scientists of all-time. The scientists today know more than he did, therefore they're better. If one of those guys were around 70 years ago, they would've easily accomplished everything he did a lot quicker.

If Einstein was around today, he wouldn't even know how to use a computer.

:sarcasm:

Do you guys see how stupid the argument is?

Einstein figured out the theory of relativity in his head. Years later he developed the math and physics that proved his theory. Gretzky (especially), Orr, Mario were the best because of what was in their head. They had physical skills for sure but what made them great was their brains. No training could ever unleash the kind of mentality they had in other players. All those that think Orr or Gretzky would have needed years of training to dominate today fail to understand the mental abilities of these great players. Orr or Gretzky would take a few games or a few weeks to master the NHL in any era. That was their strength. Those that say that the very best players of the past would benefit from today's coaching and training fail to understand Gretzky and Orr had BETTER training than any player ever. Walter and Wayne himself developed training methods far beyond anything today. Doug and Bobby Orr too. Gretzky was doing training that NHLers don't get today when he was 8 or 9 years old. Sure they could have had weight training or power skating lessons that would make them stronger and a bit faster ut that would not be a very important factor in their success. Gretzky was possibly one of the very weakest players in the NHL as he garnered 4 Cups and 9 MVP trophies in a row. And the NHL was far more physical and violent than than it is today.

There are many on these boards that believe the fact that all players today get significant weight training means that everyone is stronger than the players in the past. The fact is Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, or Tim Horton were freakish individuals. Far stronger than even the average athlete with 10 years of weight training even if their training consisted of throwing hay or drinking beer. Some people are just freakishly strong. Without any weight lifting at all. Look at Eric Lindros. He is going to be a massive physical specimen if he lifts weights 2 hours a day or if he eats at Taco Bell and doesn't ever lift a barbell.

I'll go on record as believing Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Mario, Howe, Boby Hull dominate in any era, in any time. 20 years from now, today, 20 years ago or 60 years ago. They would throw on the new equipment and adapt in a week or 2 to the new strategies and coaching and be the best players any time any where. All you would need to do is throw them in a time machine, give them new equipment and let them watch a half dozen games and then they adapt almost immediately.
 

RUSqueelin*

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Nov 2, 2005
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Like those big mobile and strong NHL defenseman in the 90's who couldn't handle a 5'10 Bure in the above video.


Not only that, but that video is proof that goaltending sucked in the 90's. AO would score 100 goals a year if he could have played back then.:D
 

Gee Wally

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That's because your mind has evolved with the game to keep up with it. If we transported 1970 you to now, your mind wouldn't be able to comprehend the quality and level of play and you'd probably have a heart attack. :sarcasm: :D

1 - I was a teenager in the 70's so even back then my mind was cloudy.

:D

2 - I 've already had a heart attack and angioplasty thank you.
 

BNHL

Registered User
Dec 22, 2006
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Boston
Einstein figured out the theory of relativity in his head. Years later he developed the math and physics that proved his theory. Gretzky (especially), Orr, Mario were the best because of what was in their head. They had physical skills for sure but what made them great was their brains. No training could ever unleash the kind of mentality they had in other players. All those that think Orr or Gretzky would have needed years of training to dominate today fail to understand the mental abilities of these great players. Orr or Gretzky would take a few games or a few weeks to master the NHL in any era. That was their strength. Those that say that the very best players of the past would benefit from today's coaching and training fail to understand Gretzky and Orr had BETTER training than any player ever. Walter and Wayne himself developed training methods far beyond anything today. Doug and Bobby Orr too. Gretzky was doing training that NHLers don't get today when he was 8 or 9 years old. Sure they could have had weight training or power skating lessons that would make them stronger and a bit faster ut that would not be a very important factor in their success. Gretzky was possibly one of the very weakest players in the NHL as he garnered 4 Cups and 9 MVP trophies in a row. And the NHL was far more physical and violent than than it is today.

There are many on these boards that believe the fact that all players today get significant weight training means that everyone is stronger than the players in the past. The fact is Bobby Hull, Gordie Howe, or Tim Horton were freakish individuals. Far stronger than even the average athlete with 10 years of weight training even if their training consisted of throwing hay or drinking beer. Some people are just freakishly strong. Without any weight lifting at all. Look at Eric Lindros. He is going to be a massive physical specimen if he lifts weights 2 hours a day or if he eats at Taco Bell and doesn't ever lift a barbell.

I'll go on record as believing Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Jagr, Mario, Howe, Boby Hull dominate in any era, in any time. 20 years from now, today, 20 years ago or 60 years ago. They would throw on the new equipment and adapt in a week or 2 to the new strategies and coaching and be the best players any time any where. All you would need to do is throw them in a time machine, give them new equipment and let them watch a half dozen games and then they adapt almost immediately.

Exactly!! I go to Bruins Alumni games and watch 50 and 60 year old ex Bruins (a couple of 40 year olds thrown in) repeatedly beat much faster and younger teams of coaches because of talent. The talent is in the brain and delivered to the body. It's amazing watching 70 year olds Bucyk and McKenzie delivering passes and finding openings the coaches cannot comprehend.
 

Blackhawk

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Apr 9, 2005
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Ya know... When you get into these fights, it's like religion or politics. I started watching hockey in the sixties as a little sh*t. I went to the old Chicago stadium then to see the hawks play. It had to be a few years after they won the cup. I was an avid fan soon after. The game is not the same and neither are the players. There is a lot more re-directing the puck now. Yes, without a doubt the players are faster by and large. You gotta understand Cherry. Hey, I'm 52 years old now and there is always a habit to fall back to "the old days" and think they were somehow better. It's tough not to.

You must understand that when a player comes along to really revolutionize the game in some way he leaves a "mark" in the memories of some. Orr revolutionized the defensive position as a scoring position and yeah, he was fast. I have a tape of an old game against the hawks which was a pretty darn good defensive group and he weaved through them like he was standing still. Funny thing... he also got tossed out of this game. So Cherry turns all this stuff over in his head and that's going to be his position about Orr. Orr use to drive me crazy and I really couldn't stand him because he was always giving the hawks fits.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,667
16,394
He'd have to compete with Lidstrom and Niedermeyer for today's Norris trophy with 1970 Northland equipment and he'd absolutely have to take a puff off of someone's cigarette during each intermission. During the summer he would work at a grain elevator instead of training.

He'd probably use Zubov's ciggies :)

This said, Orr competed against very competent D-mens for the Norris : playing in the same time than him were Jacques Laperriere, Brad Park, Serge Savard, Harry Howell (sole player that won a Norris during a COMPLETE season of Orr). Orr probably have even better competition...
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
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Vancouver
He'd probably use Zubov's ciggies :)

This said, Orr competed against very competent D-mens for the Norris : playing in the same time than him were Jacques Laperriere, Brad Park, Serge Savard, Harry Howell (sole player that won a Norris during a COMPLETE season of Orr). Orr probably have even better competition...

Wasn't it Howell who said something along the lines of "I'm glad I won this (the Norris) when I did, because that Orr kid in Boston is going to be winning them for years to come"?
 

God Bless Canada

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Jul 11, 2004
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Wasn't it Howell who said something along the lines of "I'm glad I won this (the Norris) when I did, because that Orr kid in Boston is going to be winning them for years to come"?
Yep.

As for the original thread starter, nice work. Try to encapsulate an entire generation of players by four or five highlights. You might want to take a course in reason and logic, so that you can shed the clanging of a gong reputation that you have earned by simply starting this thread.

Could it be that Orr was that much better than everyone else? Could it be that when you actually see how fast he skated, how smart he was, how strong he was, how he thought the game at a level that even Bourque and Lidstrom couldn't, that he would be that much better than anyone in today's game?

30 years from now, someone will put together a highlight reel of Crosby's best efforts, and include the goal he scored vs. Montreal a couple months ago. Someone will look at Sheldon Souray's botched coverage on that one and reason that the players in 2007 were "so horrible."
 
Last edited:

BNHL

Registered User
Dec 22, 2006
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Boston
Yep.

As for the original thread starter, nice work. Try to encapsulate an entire generation of players by four or five highlights. You might want to take a course in reason and logic, so that you can shed the clanging of a gong reputation that you have earned by simply starting this thread.

Could it be that Orr was that much better than everyone else? Could it be that when you actually see how fast he skated, how smart he was, how strong he was, how he thought the game at a level that even Bourque and Lidstrom couldn't, that he would be that much better than anyone in today's game?

30 years from now, someone will put together a highlight reel of Crosby's best efforts, and include the goal he scored vs. Montreal a couple months ago. Someone will look at Sheldon Souray's botched coverage on that one and reason that the players in 2007 were "so horrible."

I have an Orr highlight tape of approximately 3 1/2 hours. After an hour you're pretty numb!
 

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