Players were so horrible when Orr played!

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Insta, Apr 27, 2007.

  1. Insta

    Insta Registered User Sponsor

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    For those that didnt see it, Don Cherry talked about Nieds and Bobby Orr and how well they both skate and he should clips of Orr.

    http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/hnic/coachscorner/2007/04/the_devils_look_like_they_need.html

    I was too young to ever see Orr play so I have only seen him through clips and very old game film etc. You can definately see how smooth and fast he was but look at how horrible the other guys on the ice are! Its like they are all skating in sand, they dont play defense, they run into eachother etc. The goalies cant seem to stop a beachball either. I cant help but believe that his abilities became exaggerated because his playing level was so much better relative to the other players of his time. Why is he considered better than guys like Lemieux, Jagr, Gretzky(he played his best in the early-mid80s so this applys less to him), Nieds and a lot of other guys? I know it is hard to compare generation to generation but when I am reminded of the way they played back then and I find it hard to believe he was better.

    I know this has been brought up in the past so please spare me the dead horse smiley if you dont want to talk about it. I was just reminded of it by Coach's Corner so I wanted to see what people think.
     
  2. MXD

    MXD James St. John Smythe

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    I saw it... And I must admit it, Sheldon Souray looks like Reijo Ruotsalainen compared to some guys out there.
     
  3. boredmale

    boredmale Registered User

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    I remember the 80s, the palyers on a whole then weren't much better as well. Hard to say exactly when the change happened. It could be better training, better equipment, influx of europians players, better coaching etc.
     
  4. Hockey Outsider

    Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Sixty seconds of career highlights shouldn't be used to dismiss an entire generation of players. Cherry is showing you the best of Orr's goals, so of course those are the ones where he makes his opponents look silly.

    Remember the goal Ovechkin scored against Phoenix while lying on the ice? He completely embarassed Phoenix's goalie and defense. Ovechkin (and Crosby, Jagr, Sakic, etc.) have already scored many highlight-reel goals where they practically makes thier opponents look like amateurs. In thirty years, is somebody going to watch 30 seconds of Ovechkin highlights on YouTube and conclude that the game sucked in 2007?
     
  5. Insta

    Insta Registered User Sponsor

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    Valid point that it may not be quite the overall standard of play, I should try and watch some games from back then the next time they are on nhl network or classic canada. You must admit though, those goalies and defense really look silly, at least on ovy's goal you can see the d-man follows with him and is draped all over the guy and he just makes an incredible play. With Orr, he just goes right through 3 guys without making much of a move at all, and they dont even try and stop him. If those D-men made the same effort now, regardless of who they were trying to stop, Cherry would be all over them.
     
  6. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest


    The Gretzky highlight where he scored on the Colorado Rockies back in 81 or 82 was probably more damning of the defenders of the day. He put the puck through a defenseman's legs and the guy fell down. He then neatly moved around a goalie that ended up sprawled out on his belly. The Rockies looked like peewees.

    Again, a 10 second clip does not detail an entire generation of hockey.
     
  7. canuckulous

    canuckulous Registered User

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    Orr played with a passion that very few players from ANY generation could rival. If you watch Orr play the game, most players from ANY generation would appear to be playing in slow motion. He was just THAT good.
     
  8. boredmale

    boredmale Registered User

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    this thread reminds me of this website which is good for a laugh

    http://www.nomoreorr.com/

    The adjusted stats probably the best part.
     
  9. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    Much like Gretzky and Howe. Crosby has begun his career like he might be mentioned in that group one day.
     
  10. Nordic*

    Nordic* Registered User

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    He could dominate since players were that much worse back then. If he had played today he wouldn´t even be a Norris-candidate.


    Not even kinda close either.
     
  11. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    You have to compare players based on relative dominance, the game changes, it is ridiculous to say that players were terrible when Orr played, or that he is not very good at all because of it, maybe he wouldn't have been a Norris candidate in todays game, but given a level playing field he would be considered the best defenseman of all time.
     
  12. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    If Joe Thornton played in 2050 he would hardly make it as a waterboy.

    The argument is very hollow. You compare players based on how they dominated their own era.
     
  13. DOGSTARMAN

    DOGSTARMAN Registered User

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    I hate black and white movies! I mean, I know Citizen Kane gets accolades as some great movie, but how can you deny how much better Van Helsing is??
     
  14. therealdeal

    therealdeal Registered User

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    They weren't that good, but the point is that Orr made a whole generation ahead of him better. Everyone watched what he did and now we see it all the time. He was a decade or two ahead of everyone else, thats what makes it impressive. Would he dominate now like he did back in those day? Probably not, but if he didn't dominate back in those days we wouldn't have nearly as good of players today.
     
  15. Stanley Foobrick

    Stanley Foobrick Clockwork Blue

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    If you believe that Orr played in a infurior league and should be removed from the Hall-of-Fame. Click here --> www.nomoreorr.com
     
  16. Legionnaire

    Legionnaire Kill! Jeff, Kill!!!

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    Actually, you compare them to guys who spanned multiple era's.
     
  17. Wisent

    Wisent Registered User

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    It is probably the system how the game was played. The Skills seem to have been much different from what you want of a player today. i watched my fair share of high class games. Today you need to have highly trained athletes (lungs on two legs) and play a way more defensive system. You cannot compare games from that time to now just by looking at them. You need to take into consideration how an athlete did against his adversaries and you come much closer to the truth.

    Just for instance, watch what many claimed to be the best hockey ever played, the 87 series (soviets vs. canada) and you will see that many of the players simply play a different style than what is demanded today. I really think that is how teams with less talent make up for that gap.

    Same in every sport. I watched the Germany - Italy semi final in 1970 which many claie to be one of the finest football games ever. The way players played, they probably would have a problem getting a job in the 3rd tier. But against their own, they were awesome. If these players had the training and the playing mentality of today, they probably still would have been some of the finest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2007
  18. RUSqueelin*

    RUSqueelin* Registered User

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    He hit the nail on the head. If you had a 30 sec highlight reel of Crosby without ever seeing a game today, you'd think the same thing. Orr didn't go through the whole team every time he was on the ice. Someone could put a whole video of Orr getting rocked by hits if they wanted too and you'd think the league was tough to play in.

    Now take that highlight reel of Crosby and add in the crappy television production you had and.....well, you should get the idea.
     
  19. Ogopogo*

    Ogopogo* Guest

    ???????????

    Explain.
     
  20. Chili

    Chili Registered User

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    Where to begin...

    First of all, I never compare eras, too much changes over time. You would have to give those players all of the advantages of today's players to compare them which is not possible.

    A great deal of expansion went on during Orr's career. There were some terrible teams back then where Orr would have looked like he could do as he wished out but it was far different against the better teams like the other original six teams.

    There were virtually no Euro players in the league back then. Remove all the Euro's now and the talent level would drop significantly. If you have a chance watch the the first Canada Cup in 1976.

    Please...if you have the chance watch some vintage games. Watch Bobby Hull, Jean Beliveau, Yvan Cournoyer, Dave Keon, Jacques Plante, Tim Horton, Johnny Bower, Gordie Howe, Brad Park, Larry Robinson, Frank Mahovlich...and on and on.

    I don't need to compare them, I loved the hockey then as I do now.
     
  21. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Geez its comments like this that lead to a rippling effect and make people believe Orr was no more than a waterboy. If you had a time machine a put Orr in his prime in the NHL today he would be the best defenseman bar none. He'd be better than Lidstrom, Nieds, Pronger etc. Would he put up 120-130 points? I dont know but he'd get over 100.

    You have to remember that players get bigger, faster and stronger. Not that they werent in Orr's days but 30 years from now the game might be faster and we'll wonder how Crosby was able to so easily split the defense. If Orr played today he'd have the training regimen that everyone else has, plus he'd have the natural talent. He'd still be the best. Howe would still be intimidating, Coffey could still skate faster than anyone else, Gretzky could still pass better than everyone else.

    Jesse Owens was fast in 1936 but implant him in 2008 and he'd look like an amateur. It doesnt mean he's not still the fastest of all time based on a projection but today he'd have a better training program and I think in 1996 he would have beaten Donovan Bailey if he had that advantage. You get my point.
     
  22. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    I looked at this site and had a good laugh.

    He says you need to sign your real name to sign the petition. But he doesn't say who he is. He's just playing a joke on everyone.

     
  23. Warm Cookies

    Warm Cookies Return of the Matt

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    :teach:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik-_3gHWbAU

    hockey fan in 1970 watching clip: God, players in 2007 are garbage. That Crosby kid dances around and they just impotently swat at him. If he played in 1970, he'd get destroyed pulling **** like that.
     
  24. Mr BLUEandWHITE

    Mr BLUEandWHITE Registered User

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    Players were not garbage. Funny you can judge players on a highlight reel even though you admit to not watching any games from that era. :shakehead
     
  25. Legionnaire

    Legionnaire Kill! Jeff, Kill!!!

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    I'll use Gretzky as an example. Played in the 80's where it was high scoring. Many youngsters(Bilros I'm looking at you) assume that he couldn't or wouldn't hack it in todays NHL.

    So... Compare Gretzky to Sakic from the 80's for example, and it's clear that Gretz was twice the player that Joe was. Nothing against Joe obviously he was and still is great. Now, you look at Joe Sakic the 38 year old who just scored 100 points, and you can't tell me that Gretzky wouldn't be far and away the best player in the league if he were in his prime. Hell, a 38 year old Gretzky was a top ten scorer in 1998, and that was after his body began breaking down. Oh, and Bilros, to repeat that was at age 38, bad back, and he had one less point than the super Forsberg.
     

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