Player Discussion: Danny DeKeyser

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

DK looked absolutely terrible. How Manny more seasons is this guy signed for?

 

[golffuul]

DK looked absolutely terrible. How Manny more seasons is this guy signed for?

Too many.

Five, including this year.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Oh god.

 

[Shaman464]

He didn't look horrible, he looked like a run of the mill defender that he is. No better, no worse. But definitely not worthy of the contract he got. And to me, that is so much worse.

 

[Oddbob]

Dekeyser looks more and more like the low grade d-man I have thought he was since his first games for the Wings. Never been all that impressed with him, and he just makes so many weak plays. He seems incapable of clearing the puck on the PK, with lame lobs that never quite get out.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

He didn't look horrible, he looked like a run of the mill defender that he is. No better, no worse. But definitely not worthy of the contract he got. And to me, that is so much worse.

Agreed. The biggest problem with Dekeyser is they're playing him like a top-pairing guy and he just isn't. DK played more minutes than anyone on the team last night.

The defensive corps is so bad that he's constantly playing over his head.

 

[raymond23]

I didn't realize how offensively inept he was last year. 12 points total.

 

[HockeyinHD]

What we're seeing with DK is the problem with assuming improvement from a young player: sometimes it doesn't come. DK's pretty much the same player he was since he got his NHL training wheels off in 2013. If his game had expanded at all from that point, 5 mil for a solid defensive #2 isn't a bad price... but it didn't. Heck, there's at least a half-decent case to be made he's gotten more impatient with the puck in his own zone, while also not getting any better in making that outlet.

Detroit's going to be in a similar kind of box with Larkin, but at least in that case they'll have a few more protected years to observe him.

 

[Grimm]

What we're seeing with DK is the problem with assuming improvement from a young player: sometimes it doesn't come. DK's pretty much the same player he was since he got his NHL training wheels off in 2013. If his game had expanded at all from that point, 5 mil for a solid defensive #2 isn't a bad price... but it didn't. Heck, there's at least a half-decent case to be made he's gotten more impatient with the puck in his own zone, while also not getting any better in making that outlet.

Detroit's going to be in a similar kind of box with Larkin, but at least in that case they'll have a few more protected years to observe him.

He was great until he broke his hand. He took a step back and has stayed a step back. What a shame. Then he gets this doofus contract from the doofus KH.

 

[Frk It]

What we're seeing with DK is the problem with assuming improvement from a young player: sometimes it doesn't come. DK's pretty much the same player he was since he got his NHL training wheels off in 2013. If his game had expanded at all from that point, 5 mil for a solid defensive #2 isn't a bad price... but it didn't. Heck, there's at least a half-decent case to be made he's gotten more impatient with the puck in his own zone, while also not getting any better in making that outlet.

Detroit's going to be in a similar kind of box with Larkin, but at least in that case they'll have a few more protected years to observe him.

DeKeyser was an undrafted kid that never put up numbers in college and doesnt have dynamic skills.

Why people got all excited about him... I’ll never understand. I guess that speaks to just how desperate we had gotten in regards to the defense.

Larkin is not a similar situation at all.

 

[Bench]

DeKeyser was an undrafted kid that never put up numbers in college and doesnt have dynamic skills.

Why people got all excited about him... I’ll never understand. I guess that speaks to just how desperate we had gotten in regards to the defense.

Larkin is not a similar situation at all.

DeKeyser had a season where he generated a lot of ES assists, which put me on the hopeful end of the spectrum for a short time. Certainly we've seen low-skill defenders make the jump to the NHL that don't become Karlsson level talents, but find a niche distributing the puck with solid passing that generate pressure and ultimately lead to scoring.

Part of it comes from that we have an expectation that players develop on a curve each season. "If our young guys make the next step..." And while that can happen, it's important to remember that's not a guarantee by any means. With defenders, I think so much of it comes down to having the hockey IQ to read the game at that high speed. That's something one can learn, but to what level is so dependent on how much time the player is putting in and if they have the physical tools to keep up with their head.

With DK, at this stage I'd be happy if he puts all his focus into being a shut down guy who is always playing the correct angles and has his body between the opponent and the net. Not exciting hockey, or not what you expect for his contract, but keep it simple and be a pest in your own zone. Shore that up and maaaaayyybeee we can think about generating more offense.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

DeKeyser was an undrafted kid that never put up numbers in college and doesnt have dynamic skills.

Why people got all excited about him... I’ll never understand. I guess that speaks to just how desperate we had gotten in regards to the defense.

Larkin is not a similar situation at all.

I think part of it was because he wasn't drafted. He sort of was a freebie that came up out of the blue for the Wings.

And yes, I think desperation is part of it too. Even though he's hardly been great can you imagine what the defense would look like without Dekeyser?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

DD got so much hype because he is from Michigan and that was a brand we were trying to sell.

He is what he is, and that is what he always was...

An average depth dman, think a solid #4 but who is now being paid and played as though he were a top two guy

 

[Pavels Dog]

DD got so much hype because he is from Michigan and that was a brand we were trying to sell.

He is what he is, and that is what he always was...

An average depth dman, think a solid #4 but who is now being paid and played as though he were a top two guy

Or, he is someone that could be great as the #3 on a team that is well coached and has a good core, but sucks as the #1-2 on a badly coached team with no core to speak of.

Let's not make the fact that he is looking bad right now cloud our memory of just how good he was for us for 2-3 seasons. It's not complete coincidence that 90% of our roster look like they've forgotten how to play hockey since Babcock left and Datsyuk/Z/Kronner started losing much of their ability (or leaving).

 

[Frk It]

Part of it comes from that we have an expectation that players develop on a curve each season. "If our young guys make the next step..." And while that can happen, it's important to remember that's not a guarantee by any means. With defenders, I think so much of it comes down to having the hockey IQ to read the game at that high speed. That's something one can learn, but to what level is so dependent on how much time the player is putting in and if they have the physical tools to keep up with their head.

I get that, but maybe we need to ask ourselves if a guy is doing something if his skills make it sustainable or not (actually think we are decently reasonable with that). Some folks thought after he looked good on the middle pair that he might have the potential to play on the top pair, and I always said if Dekeyser is on your top pair you are going to be a bad team (TZE did too).

With DK, at this stage I'd be happy if he puts all his focus into being a shut down guy who is always playing the correct angles and has his body between the opponent and the net. Not exciting hockey, or not what you expect for his contract, but keep it simple and be a pest in your own zone. Shore that up and maaaaayyybeee we can think about generating more offense.

Not sure he'll ever be physically imposing enough to be a shut down guy. Guy loses an awful lot of battles for that. He skates well and can pass decent. I think he processes the game fine, he just doesn't have much in the way of creativity or puck skills. We need to find a way to bury him and he may go back to looking OK. Pair him with one of these young righty puckmovers like Saarijarvi or Hronek on the 2nd pair, and I could see that being a solid pairing maybe.

This team desperately needs to develop a quality LD... no pressure or anything, Cholo

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

DK looked absolutely terrible. How Manny more seasons is this guy signed for?

Looking like 5 long years with DDK now, I was a big DDK fan when we signed him, But now i'm kind of starting to sour on him as well.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Or, he is someone that could be great as the #3 on a team that is well coached and has a good core, but sucks as the #1-2 on a badly coached team with no core to speak of.

Let's not make the fact that he is looking bad right now cloud our memory of just how good he was for us for 2-3 seasons. It's not complete coincidence that 90% of our roster look like they've forgotten how to play hockey since Babcock left and Datsyuk/Z/Kronner started losing much of their ability (or leaving).

My suspicion is alot of players look better when they're surrounded by elite level talent.

Like I said he is a decent #4 but is being paid AND played as though he were a top 2 guy

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Looking like 5 long years with DDK now, I was a big DDK fan when we drafted him, But now i'm kind of starting to sour on him as well.

Just want to point out that we signed him. Pretty sure everybody in the league wanted him as well

 

[Pavels Dog]

My suspicion is alot of players look better when they're surrounded by elite level talent.

Like I said he is a decent #4 but is being paid AND played as though he were a top 2 guy

He's not paid like a top 2 guy at all, however he earns more than your average 2nd pairing d-man because we're forced to play him in a bigger role.

Most depth players look bad when a team sucks. "decent #4" is pretty ridiculous considering the absolute garbage that manages to do well in a #4 role on good teams. There's a handful of teams where DD wouldn't at least be the #3.

 

[avssuc]

He's not paid like a top 2 guy at all

Math says you're wrong...

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Math says you're wrong...

And even a cursory glance at UFA contracts that have been signed at any time in recent memory tells you that you're wrong.

You have to toss out guys like Rielly, Trouba, Slavin, Pesce, Josi, Klefbom, etc. They signed their deals with a good bit of RFA control remaining, so their AAV is much lower than it reasonably could/should be and when their next deal comes around, it will be WAY higher than 5M.

The Ghostisbehere, Parayko, OEL, etc. contracts are completely unrelated as well for similar reasons.

Jeff Petry, Matt Niskanen, Brooks Orpik, Marc Methot, Paul Martin, Karl Alzner, Jason Garrison, Jason Demers, etc. Those guys are all +/- 500k of DDK and they're not top pairing guys.

Kronwall signed his 4.75M deal and before the recapture, everyone loved how low the cap hit was because that wasn't what you should pay a top pairing guy.

Basically if there is a top pairing guy who makes 5M or below on a long term deal right now... it's because he signed it instead of a bridge deal so there was multiple RFA years being bought out as opposed to DDK's one. If they make less money, it's either the long term deal or they're on a bridge deal that will lead to a much bigger contract than $5M in short order.

DDK's deal is run of the mill for a middle pairing (skewed towards #3D over #4) D man.

 

[Frk It]

And even a cursory glance at UFA contracts that have been signed at any time in recent memory tells you that you're wrong.

You have to toss out guys like Rielly, Trouba, Slavin, Pesce, Josi, Klefbom, etc. They signed their deals with a good bit of RFA control remaining, so their AAV is much lower than it reasonably could/should be and when their next deal comes around, it will be WAY higher than 5M.

The Ghostisbehere, Parayko, OEL, etc. contracts are completely unrelated as well for similar reasons.

Jeff Petry, Matt Niskanen, Brooks Orpik, Marc Methot, Paul Martin, Karl Alzner, Jason Garrison, Jason Demers, etc. Those guys are all +/- 500k of DDK and they're not top pairing guys.

Kronwall signed his 4.75M deal and before the recapture, everyone loved how low the cap hit was because that wasn't what you should pay a top pairing guy.

Basically if there is a top pairing guy who makes 5M or below on a long term deal right now... it's because he signed it instead of a bridge deal so there was multiple RFA years being bought out as opposed to DDK's one. If they make less money, it's either the long term deal or they're on a bridge deal that will lead to a much bigger contract than $5M in short order.

DDK's deal is run of the mill for a middle pairing (skewed towards #3D over #4) D man.

I mean we literally just signed a defenseman who is better for cheaper off the open market, in Trevor Daley.

DeKeyser is not middle of the pack, he is very much overpaid. Just because there are other overpaid guys, doesn't mean he is not overpaid.

And Niskanen and some of those guys you list are much better players. Niskanen has played 23 minutes a night in Washington at a ~35 pt pace since he has been there. They are getting way more out of him than we are getting out of DeKeyser.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Jonathan Ericsson 2.0

 

[avssuc]

I mean we literally just signed a defenseman who is better for cheaper off the open market, in Trevor Daley.

DeKeyser is not middle of the pack, he is very much overpaid. Just because there are other overpaid guys, doesn't mean he is not overpaid.

My thoughts exactly.

DeKeyser was signed at extended term by his hometown team as well. Folks can argue that hometown doesn't come with a discount, but length of term certainly should.

This guy is only marginally better than Kyle Quincey, at triple the price, and 5 X term.

 

[Hammettf2b]