Philly not as big a hockey town as it is thought to be?

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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The Phillies are a budding powerhouse. Why would you say they're terrible ?

Because in Philadelphia, until you are a powerhouse, nobody cares unless you crash and burn in which the Eagles fans just point and laugh.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

Registered User
Feb 17, 2005
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Denver area
Detroit and Minnesota, I'd say are the closest. New York, Boston, Chicago, no way, they're probably all the #4 sport.
But again, even the closest are not close.

All together now...

In every US market, the NFL >> NHL, and it isn't even close.

This doesn't mean there aren't US cities where hockey is very popular. But even in those (Detroit, Denver, Buffalo, Minneapolis/St Paul, etc.), the NFL >> the NHL.

Once again, with feeling this time...

In every US market, the NFL >> NHL, and it isn't even close.
 

MLH

Registered User
Feb 6, 2003
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But again, even the closest are not close.

All together now...

In every US market, the NFL >> NHL, and it isn't even close.

This doesn't mean there aren't US cities where hockey is very popular. But even in those (Detroit, Denver, Buffalo, Minneapolis/St Paul, etc.), the NFL >> the NHL.

Once again, with feeling this time...

In every US market, the NFL >> NHL, and it isn't even close.

Buffalo is pretty close. In the 1970's it was undeniably a hockey town. A Sabres game was the hottest ticket in town and it lasted for a long time. Once Kelly, Thurman, Bruce, Reed, etc came into their own it shifted to a football first town for the past twenty years. There was an article in the Buffalo News recently suggesting Buffalo might be reverting back to a hockey town because the Sabres have been the "it" team for the past year and a half. It remains to be seen whether it's just because the Sabres are good and the Bills are bad or if it will be another long trend like the 70's-early 80's. Still, it's fairly close either way, at least right now.
 

Gert B Frobe

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Nov 18, 2003
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Detroit and Minnesota, I'd say are the closest. New York, Boston, Chicago, no way, they're probably all the #4 sport.

Detroit is probably the closest I agree - but think of all the U of M football fans. That team has a fanbase that would rival many NFL teams. I grew up in Toledo and believe me -college football was far and away the #1 sport. Hockey was big too - lots of frozen lakes and ponds around there.
 

EbencoyE

Registered User
Nov 26, 2006
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<_< Is the NHL ever #2?

Buffalo? Pittsburgh maybe? It's hard to say because even markets like San Jose who only have the NHL still have a lot of NFL/MLB/NBA fans. Using San Jose as an example still, the NFL is probably number 1 (like it is everywhere), MLB number 2 (Giants are big and close by), then the NHL. Though they might even be further down than that. And the NHL is the only major league in town!
 

trenton1

Bergeron for Hart
Dec 19, 2003
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The Bruins were always bigger than the Patriots in Boston until the mid 90's when the Bruins went to the cellar and Parcells took the Pats to first place. If things were dead even in terms of success for each franchise for the duration then you can bet that Boston would be that US city where hockey beat football.
 

alrusso

Registered User
Mar 26, 2007
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Don't think so

The Bruins were always bigger than the Patriots in Boston until the mid 90's when the Bruins went to the cellar and Parcells took the Pats to first place. If things were dead even in terms of success for each franchise for the duration then you can bet that Boston would be that US city where hockey beat football.

I don't think the Bruins would be more popular than the Pats. The Bruins would be fighting for third with the Celtics in today's Boston sports landscape. Even it they all were winning. It's going to take a long time to catch up based on the last 10-15 years for the Bruins. No excitement at all. It takes a while to get fans, to grow fans. Popularity is not turned on like a light switch. Unless another Bobby Orr comes along for the Bruins, it's going to take a while to get them back in the discussion.
 

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Boston and Detroit were always the two cities where it was viewed that football was the #4 sport, at least thats how it was 10 years ago.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

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Feb 17, 2005
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Denver area
Buffalo is pretty close. In the 1970's it was undeniably a hockey town. A Sabres game was the hottest ticket in town and it lasted for a long time. Once Kelly, Thurman, Bruce, Reed, etc came into their own it shifted to a football first town for the past twenty years. There was an article in the Buffalo News recently suggesting Buffalo might be reverting back to a hockey town because the Sabres have been the "it" team for the past year and a half. It remains to be seen whether it's just because the Sabres are good and the Bills are bad or if it will be another long trend like the 70's-early 80's. Still, it's fairly close either way, at least right now.
Consider these comparisons. How big a story are even Bills preseason games (and off-days between preseason games)? How about Bills training camp? Or Bills offseason activity. Heck, how about the games, preseason games/issues, offseason, and training camp of other NFL teams (e.g., Jets, Patriots, etc.) that don't even play in Buffalo? And even compare that to actual regular-season Sabres games. Now reverse everything and consider the weight given to, say, preseason activity for the Sabres as compared to regular season Bills games. Or preseason/offseason activity for other NHL teams as compared to anything the Bills (or other NFL teams) do.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

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Feb 17, 2005
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Denver area
Boston and Detroit were always the two cities where it was viewed that football was the #4 sport, at least thats how it was 10 years ago.
Ten years ago, five years ago, or yesterday... football was not the #4 sport in Detroit. The universe of people who follow the NFL >> the universe of people who follow the NHL. And the universe of people who follow a crappy/hopeless Lions team > the universe of people who follow an elite Wings team.
 

MLH

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Feb 6, 2003
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Consider these comparisons. How big a story are even Bills preseason games (and off-days between preseason games)? How about Bills training camp? Or Bills offseason activity. Heck, how about the games, preseason games/issues, offseason, and training camp of other NFL teams (e.g., Jets, Patriots, etc.) that don't even play in Buffalo? And even compare that to actual regular-season Sabres games. Now reverse everything and consider the weight given to, say, preseason activity for the Sabres as compared to regular season Bills games. Or preseason/offseason activity for other NHL teams as compared to anything the Bills (or other NFL teams) do.

Right now, the Bills offseason is being largely ignored. There hasn't been less draft talk in the paper, on WGR, or just around town in years. Other teams offseason activity is the same for the NHL and NFL, small articles in TBN and the bigger signings will be talked about on WGR.

If the Willis McGahee story had happened 5 years ago it would have been an infinitely bigger issue. Considering we traded our "star" RB and he then ripped the city, it hasn't been *that* big of a story. It remains to be seen whether its just because the Sabres are good or if it's another shift in the local sports climate.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

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Feb 17, 2005
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Denver area
Right now, the Bills offseason is being largely ignored. There hasn't been less draft talk in the paper, on WGR, or just around town in years. Other teams offseason activity is the same for the NHL and NFL, small articles in TBN and the bigger signings will be talked about on WGR.

If the Willis McGahee story had happened 5 years ago it would have been an infinitely bigger issue. Considering we traded our "star" RB and he then ripped the city, it hasn't been *that* big of a story. It remains to be seen whether its just because the Sabres are good or if it's another shift in the local sports climate.
I'm speaking in aggregate, though. Take the last five years, for example, and compare the collective "weight" of all of the various aspects of NFL and NHL teams (both in and out of Buffalo) that I brought up before.

I hope you're not taking this as a knock on Buffalo, by the way. I happen to consider Buffalo probably the #1 hockey market in the US. The point, though, is that the NFL is so far ahead of every other sports league in the country as a whole, that even in terrific US hockey markets (and there are several), the NFL is clearly ahead.
 

LazRNN

Registered User
Dec 17, 2003
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Even if hockey is the talk of the city at a moment when that cities NHL team is doing very good while the NFL team is in a rut (Detroit, Buffalo), that shouldn't be regarded as an indication that hockey is the #1 sport. Every team in every sport will have a surge of popularity if they are successful. What should be compared is the sports popularity during times of roughly equivalent success between the two teams. In the case of Buffalo, would the Sabres be as popular as the Bills are now had they missed the playoffs the past five or six years? Would the Wings be as popular as the Lions had the management been so bad that they've become over the years a laughing stock, the comic embodiment of sheer incompetence? In fact, the Wings could never become the butt of jokes the Lions are because they'd just be ignored if they ever got that bad.
 

Levizk

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Feb 12, 2007
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Monroeville, PA
In Pittsburgh if the Pirates ever managed to become an annual playoff contender the Steelers would have competition. Many people forget since the NFL exploded onto the scene in a huge way in the 90s that Pittsburgh at one time lived and died with the Pirates. The Penguins have a strong following, but no doubt in my mind if the Pirates ever awake from their ownership nightmare and become a MLB team again they would step ahead of the Penguins.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

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Feb 17, 2005
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Denver area
Even if hockey is the talk of the city at a moment when that cities NHL team is doing very good while the NFL team is in a rut (Detroit, Buffalo), that shouldn't be regarded as an indication that hockey is the #1 sport. Every team in every sport will have a surge of popularity if they are successful. What should be compared is the sports popularity during times of roughly equivalent success between the two teams. In the case of Buffalo, would the Sabres be as popular as the Bills are now had they missed the playoffs the past five or six years? Would the Wings be as popular as the Lions had the management been so bad that they've become over the years a laughing stock, the comic embodiment of sheer incompetence? In fact, the Wings could never become the butt of jokes the Lions are because they'd just be ignored if they ever got that bad.
In the case of the NFL, specifically, though, it goes even beyond that. Regardless of whether or not the teams are equal, the respective NFL team is still ahead of the NHL team, for US markets.
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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In Pittsburgh if the Pirates ever managed to become an annual playoff contender the Steelers would have competition. Many people forget since the NFL exploded onto the scene in a huge way in the 90s that Pittsburgh at one time lived and died with the Pirates. The Penguins have a strong following, but no doubt in my mind if the Pirates ever awake from their ownership nightmare and become a MLB team again they would step ahead of the Penguins.

That might have been true 10 years ago, but I think that the new arena fiasco and the recent surgings of the Pens will do wonders for the hometown fanbase. Nothing makes fans like winners or contenders, and the way the NHL playoffs are set up, it's much easier to get into the post-season than MLB. You might end up seeing a generation gap between people who remember the Pirates post-season and those who can't in the next few years (it's already been 15 years).
 

flyersfan97

Guest
The hockey news I think last year ranked Philadelphia as the top U.S hockey city/market. Living between both Phily and Newyork I see no difference in general hockey intrest. Though the Flyers get great support from their regional fan base there doesn't seem to be much intrest in the NHL like U.S markets such as Buffalo Detroit, Pittsburgh and Boston. I would be shocked to see Philly ratings for the playoffs higher than any of the above mentioned cities.

This is a joke right? You see no difference between the Flyers and the Devils fan base? How long, may I ask, have you been following hockey? I've been to Devils games, within the last decade, where there were about 4,000 people in attendance. The Flyers have a rabid fan base, whereas very few people care about the Devils. Do know, I say this as someone who lives less than 3 miles from CAA. The Devils win the cup, it's front page news in the Bergen Co. papers the next day, then it's over and done with. There will be more articles on the Flyers in the Philly papers than there will be articles on the Devils in the NJ papers--and only one of our teams is in the playoffs. As I type, there are currently discounted tickets offered for the Devils first round playoff games, do you think the same thing happens in Philly? Sorry, as Lou said below, you are most definitely barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Philly is a super hockey town, hell, their minor league team gets better crowds then the Devils do.

Your definitely barking up the wrong tree dude.

Thank you.
 

Pens75

Pens Fan Since 1975
Jul 30, 2005
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Duquesne Gardens
That might have been true 10 years ago

Exactly... times have changed and things are changing fast. Without going into all the details, the Penguins in regards to talent, management, arena, fan base and so on... are in a very powerful position, don't think it's hit some people yet.
 

Big McLargehuge

Fragile Traveler
May 9, 2002
72,188
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S. Pasadena, CA
That might have been true 10 years ago, but I think that the new arena fiasco and the recent surgings of the Pens will do wonders for the hometown fanbase. Nothing makes fans like winners or contenders, and the way the NHL playoffs are set up, it's much easier to get into the post-season than MLB. You might end up seeing a generation gap between people who remember the Pirates post-season and those who can't in the next few years (it's already been 15 years).


Unless the Pirates can somehow manage the success the Penguins should have the next decade or so there's no way the Pirates pass the Penguins.

A large portion of the Penguins fan base can't even remember the last time the Pirates were in the playoffs. I've been watching sports since 1993...the Pirates best record in that span was 79-83 a full decade ago. To say the least, the Pirates are not doing well with the younger crowd.

From someone who grew up in the south hills of Pittsburgh the Penguins are right there with the Steelers atop the sports heap in Pittsburgh. In other sections of town things are differently. The Pirates barely showed up on the radar. The Pirates impact within the city is still very much huge while the further you get away the less they show up. The Penguins seem to have the opposite impact as their fan base is more spread around the metro area.

I love baseball, but the Pirates godawful ownership is enough to keep them down my list.

No doubt Pittsburgh is a football town, this town lives and dies by the Steelers. It's that way in most cities, but Pittsburgh and the Steelers...well...yeah, it's legendary stuff. The Penguins will never compete with the Steelers in this city, but they have a pretty comfortable seat at #2 and the cushion will grow larger as the team continues to do well.


As for Philadelphia...it is a damn good hockey city. I go to school in central Pennsylvania smack dab between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (though I'm one of seemingly 5 western Pennsylvanians going to school here, almost everyone is from Philly or New Jersey). I've seen maybe 1 Phillies hat, a dozen Eagles jerseys, 1 76ers jersey, and an insane amount of Flyers gear. That's just from my personal experience. Their attendance numbers in this terrible year do enough to show that it is a great hockey city. Hockey doesn't need to be #1 in the market for that city to still be a great home for that sport.
 

kdb209

Registered User
Jan 26, 2005
14,870
6
The Bruins were always bigger than the Patriots in Boston until the mid 90's when the Bruins went to the cellar and Parcells took the Pats to first place. If things were dead even in terms of success for each franchise for the duration then you can bet that Boston would be that US city where hockey beat football.
When I lived in Boston (in the early 80's) the pecking order was:

The BoSox
...
...
The Celtics (The Celtics were well behind the Sox even during the height of the Bird Era)
...
...
A close tie between the Pats and Bruins - both were an easy ticket to get, even playoff tix.

My guess is that in the mid 80's (when the Pats actually got good, including of course the SB year) the Pats surpassed the Bruins.
 

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