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Phaneuf or Barker

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by kenyon316, Feb 11, 2004.

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  1. kenyon316

    kenyon316 Registered User

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    I apologize in advance if these two players were compared. I couldn't find a string. My team defense includes Frantisek Kaberle, Joni Pitkanen, Wade Redden, and Karel Rachunek. Which d man should I add and can you give some good and bad points on each.

    Thanx.
     
  2. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    Both are great.

    But I'd take Phaneuf... he's a better two-way defenseman apparentely.
     
  3. Fighter

    Fighter Always on the move

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    I would take Phaneuf as well.
     
  4. canucksfan

    canucksfan Registered User

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    Phaneuf
     
  5. Puckz

    Puckz Registered User

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    Both will be great defencemen, personally I favor Phaneuf though...

    Here's a little on them like ya asked...

    Phaneuf 6'2" 200 pounds...
    Great leader and a hard-hitter, has drawn early comparisons to Scott Stevens and may even produce like Stevens did early in his career, decent offensive upside, should continue to produce offensively in his career unlike how Stevens production dropped off... is fundamentally sound, is a sure-fire NHLer, no way he won't make the show in some capacity.

    Barker 6'3" 210 pounds...
    Likens himself also to Scott Stevens, is a good leader as well... Is rated to be a top pick in the 2004 draft.. Is a smooth skater with no huge flaws and is determined to be successful.. Good offensive awareness, can jump into a play and contribute. Would also classify him as a can't miss NHLer... However, what makes me like Phaneuf over Barker is just the feeling that Phaneuf will be nastier, meaner, and more of a Stevens like player than Barker.

    Here are some stats from this year...

    PHANEUF 49 games played, 17 goals 38 points... +7 on a team that for the most part is in the negatives and 105 PIMs... 2nd on team in scoring...

    BARKER 54 games played, 16 goals 50 points... +14 on a team that is all positive... 91 PIMs, 6th on team in scoring on a team that he is feeding on assists from top forwards...

    Either way, my decision, I'd take Phaneuf.
     
  6. Jason MacIsaac

    Jason MacIsaac Registered User

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    I choose Barker

    Barker can jump in the rush with his blazing speed and can courterback a powerplay.
    He is an excellent PK'er seen at the prospects game, he will block every shot possible. Barker brings much more offense to a team then Phaneuf. Phaneuf is nice but Barker is a much better prospect IMO.
     
  7. kenyon316

    kenyon316 Registered User

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    If Eminger is added to this, does everybody still choose Phaneuf or Barker?? I was just offered Eminger for a third but only want to take one dman in the draft. So should I give up the third or go for Phaneuf or Barker????

    thanx
     
  8. Puckz

    Puckz Registered User

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    Still both of them over Eminger.
     
  9. looooob

    looooob Registered User

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    much better? wow. seeing as Phaneuf is #2 at THN (which admittedly might be a little high) a MUCH Better prospect is pretty exciting stuff! ;)
     
  10. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Forget Eminger. Take one of the two others.

    My pick at this point would be Phaneuf. His progression is very satisfying and the style of game he plays could make him a key contributor who is intimidating. Not a lot of those around.

    The Scott Stevens comparisons are far-fetched. Phaneuf will be his own player and is simply not as good as Stevens.

    Of course, since this is a fantasy thread:

    1-You're not in the right forum

    2-Your pick may depend on what kind of league you are in. In a league where only points count, I might favor Barker
     
  11. FlyersGuy69

    FlyersGuy69 Registered User

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  12. Jason MacIsaac

    Jason MacIsaac Registered User

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    Barker's stock will rise big time and by this time next year he may be #2 on that prospect list behind Ovechkin. THN is really canadian biast also. I shouldn't have said alot, but Barker will be better.
     
  13. Puckz

    Puckz Registered User

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    Hey Vladdy, all due respect but I had a couple questions for you... You first say that Phaneuf's progress is "very satisfying" and that his style of play is "intimidating" but then you go on to say his comparison to Scott Stevens is far-fetched and that he is simply not as good as Stevens.

    My first question is what makes Stevens so good? Isn't it that he is intimidating? Phaneuf and Stevens are fairly close to the same size, give Phaneuf an inch or two. Stevens obvious is more solid, it's what I call old man strength, but give Phaneuf time and do you still consider the comparisons to be far fetched?

    In Stevens last junior season, with Kitchener in the OHL (his only full season) Stevens recorded 6 goals and 42 points in 68 games... 158 PIMs, must like Phaneuf.

    Basically what I am arguing is that Phaneuf and Stevens are very alike. While Phaneuf may never put up 78 points in a season like Stevens did it will more or less be because of the reduced scoring in the game. In comparison I feel that Phaneuf could put up 50 points or so, contributing both offensively and defensively as well as being a leader... He intimidates and he punishes, just ask Olesz, what more was Stevens at 19 than Phaneuf is not?
     
  14. jincargo

    jincargo Registered User

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    Barker will be the more complete player when its all said and done.
     
  15. kruezer

    kruezer Registered User

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    Wow, Phaneuf, Eminger and Barker, crazy, my three favourite D-prospects around right now. Thats a really tough choice, take'em all, :D. I think, and this hurts to say, I'd go with Barker, severely underrated IMO.
     
  16. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    It's a combination of being intimidating, a terrificly skilled player, a superb athlete and over the top leadership/desire. Being intimidating in this league gives you Scott Parker or Peter Worrell :)

    That will depend on the overall development curve, I guess. I know Phaneuf has a LOT of guts. He is agressive not only with his physical play but his overall game. He asserts himself. And we definitly know he CAN hit hard as hell.

    But I don't see the overall hockey sense needed to reach Stevens level. I don't see as much natural athletism and I don't see the same puckhandling abilities in the defensive and neutral zone.

    Once Phaneuf is in the offense zone, the guy is MONEY. But to get there, he doesn't impress me (which is why I think Barker will be a safer bet to rack a couple more points, as an aside) all that much.

    Can't say, unfortunately. I must have started watching Stevens when he was maybe 22 and I was far from knowing what I know today so assessments were slightly different. I do think the closest match I have seen to Stevens recently is Brad Stuart. I think he was an unbelievable prospect and I remember being much higher on him than Phaneuf. I don't think he'll ever reach that "Stevens level" of domination.

    One thing is for sure, it gets very difficult to compare eras. You're right, scoring has changed, the game has changed. There is less room for fancy plays, etc.

    With defensemen, it is harder than forwards. (and goalies, harder than defensemen). It's tough to know how they'll turn out. Some of the top guys end up not doing as much as you expect and there are quiet risers all the time.

    I think Phaneuf is in a FANTASTIC environment. It's one of the best development farm in Canada. And you can be sure Brent Sutter won't say it but he's probably pushing even more because his brother is there waiting for this gem. It's great for Phaneuf, but it does have some problems.

    I have seen too often Red Deer players being hyped for what they simply can't do. Simply put, the program is SO GOOD that it sometimes makes players look better than what they are. I remember that year Red Deer went to the Memorial Cup against Val D'Or. And everybody was RAVING about their blueline. And it's true, they were very well-trained, doing the right things, big mobile guys. But I saw they weren't as good as advertised. Many went on to be relatively high picks.

    I think Phaneuf is much better than most. He is awesome and along with Parise my favorite player in the draft. I love the kid. But unless his development is just unbelievable, I don't think he'll be the next Scott Stevens. Not a chance if I judge him by other young players I have seen (Brewer, Woywitka, Stuart, Pitkanen, Jay-Bo, etc.)

    I wish I could compare him directly with young Stevens. Few of us will be able to unless they are old ;)

    But knowing what Stuart can be like in the NHL, I can do a ballpark assessment of Phaneuf and don't think he'll reach a Stevens level.

    So short answer:

    -Stevens > Stuart > Phaneuf
    -Stevens better hockey sense than Phaneuf
    -Younger Stevens better at rushing the puck in defensive and neutral zone
    -Phaneuf surprisingly good once in offense zone. Will probably keep on racking goals and may get some assists also just by shooting hard and teammates getting rebounds
    -Phaneuf does not look to me like a better athlete but as you said, age will factor in and may improve (as an aside, Stevens preparation for hockey season is unbelievable, just ask Jason Arnott)
    -Phaneuf's mental strength seems impressive. But knowing Stevens is one of the very best of his ERA, we know Phaneuf has a huge mountain to climb to get there
    -Development will be key but we know by watching other talents over the years, like Klesla, that it takes enormous talent/development to reach elite level. And Stevens is a top 10 D in his time. He is a legend who has been able to dominate, change his game and still dominate.

    Apologies if I took a while to answer. I just thought you raised several good points and were so polite and nice that you deserved a full answer so waited for some quiet time to reply :)
     
  17. Puckz

    Puckz Registered User

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    Hey not a problem, I appreciate you taking the time to answer in such detail, everyone has an opinion and so I just enjoy hearing different sides of the story. You raise some good points about the physical and mental aspects of Stevens game being superior to perhaps anyone and everyone in recent memory and I would agree... I can't say Phaneuf will become the player/hall of famer that Stevens is or was but as strictly a style comparison I still feel Phaneuf's game reflects that of Stevens.

    I was a little surprised by your comparison of Brad Stuart to Stevens, personally I don't feel as though Stuart's physical game is up to the level of Stevens or what Phaneuf's will eventually become but it's hard to gauge until they are all on the same level...

    You also make a good point about Red Deer pumping out some premier prospects that don't perform as well as they should, look as far as Yakubov to prove that. Maybe it is the hype around Phaneuf but in my opinion he will handle it admirably, but as it always does, time will tell. Thanks again for the response.
     
  18. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

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    Yeah, I thought that would be likely. In my very humble opinion, Brad Stuart is one of the most underrated players in the league physically. He doesn't smack guys all that often but man, does he smack hard when he does. And just like Stevens, he has that ability to smoothly do it. One minute, he's backing from the attacker, the next he switches gear and comes at him beautifully, either by the side or right ahead. Ouch :p

    Stuart picks his spots too. He's not a hothead who hits relentlessly so he's not a guy the opposition expects will hit every time. This year, I haven't seen him do it. I think his career hit a small bump with the injuries he's had to deal with. Hopefully, he resumes his play because I think he is the whole package as far as skills, athletism and toughness.

    Anyway, I think Phaneuf, physically, will assert himself more often than Stuart. I see him becoming a great D and while 5-5 he may have some *very* slight limitations, I think his shot and instincts in the offensive zone really kick in. So he'll be valuable at all times. He is going to be a fan favorite in Calgary (and to other fans like me who just enjoy a solid player like that)

    To go back to the thread, I also wanted to point something out (credit goes to a Oiler poster in another thread): there is an article at HF. They asked the head scout of the Oilers what he thinks of Barker and the scout said Barker is very good but they would have ranked him 4th behind Coburn, Phaneuf and Suter last year. Now, I'm not necessarly agreeing or disagreeing but wanted to pass the information to the thread starter. Check HF articles on Oilers section to read more on this (sorry can't provide link now).
     
  19. Pachoo

    Pachoo Registered User

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    I'd also go with Barker. He is easily the highest scoring defenseman in the WHL and he just turned 18 years old. Barker seems to be outplaying Phaneuf in the same league while being a year younger.
     
  20. hawksfan50

    hawksfan50 Registered User

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    Phaneuf is of course OLDER too--let's see what Barker will turn into by next season...
     
  21. Taxman

    Taxman Registered User

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    I personally think Cam Barker has the highest upside of any defenseman taken in the last 2 drafts and 2004's draft combined.
     
  22. Gags1288

    Gags1288 Registered User

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    A higher upside than Pitkanen and J-bo? Wow, I don't know too much about Cam, but I kind of find that hard to believe. After watching Pitkanen play this entire year, he's got norris trophy written all over him. And J-bo, while I don't get to watch him nearly as much, has the same type of potential. I'd actually like to see a ranking of the top 6 defenseman taken in the last 3 drafts, that would include Pitkanen, J-bo, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, and Barker. I think my list would look like this

    1a)Pitkanen (Yea, i'm biased, but he is extremely impressive)
    1b)Bouwmeester (Hasn't quite lived up to expectations, but I think he'll get there)
    3) Suter (I like his all around game and I still believe he was the best d-man in that draft)
    4)Phaneuf (A huge upside to this kid, good all around game)
    5)Barker (Going to be very good, another kid with a huge upside)
    6)Coburn (Still going to be a very good d-man, good tools and great size)

    All are extremely talented d-men, imo.
     
  23. Puckz

    Puckz Registered User

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    I did somewhat touch on this subject but here, I'll go into it in more depth...

    RED DEER REBELS
    28-21-7-3 134 GF 146 GA (4th in Central)
    MEDICINE HAT TIGERS
    32-16-8-2 226GF 171 GA (1st in Central)

    RED DEER SCORING LEADERS
    1) Colin Fraser 23 goals, 45 points in 58 games
    2) Dion Phaneuf 17 goals, 39 points in 50 games
    3) Justin Taylor 12 goals, 30 points in 44 games
    4) Derek Meech 9 goals, 30 points in 50 games
    5) Blair Jones 7 goals, 27 points in 59 games
    17 players on the Red Deer team are in the negative, 5 are even to +2, then ONLY two Phaneuf (+7) and Taylor (+4) are better than that... Phaneuf's defensive partner Meech is (-14).

    MEDICINE HAT SCORING LEADERS
    1) Chris St.Jacques 23 goals, 67 points in 50 games
    2) Stefan Meyer 30 goals, 65 points in 58 games
    3) Darren Reid 26 goals, 65 points in 53 games
    4) Clarke MacArthur 30 goals, 64 points in 52 games
    5) Cam Barker 16 goals, 53 points in 55 games
    6) Steve Reiger 20 goals, 52 points in 58 games
    7) Yannic Seidenberg 15 goals, 51 points in 54 games
    23 of the Tigers players are even or better... the only 3 players that are negative, and slighty negative are rookies who are fringe players this year. Barker is ranked 7th in +/- on his team...

    As for Barker being "easily the highest scoring defencemen in the WHL" he's not... So I don't know where you got that, maybe pulling facts out of thin air? The leading defencemen is Mark Ardelan with Prince Albert who has 15 goals, 60 points in 56 games.

    Regardless, look at the stats, Barker plays on a lesser team, probably chisels assists off of top players who skate their way through the zone and snipe... No skill required by Barker, now I'm not saying he doesn't have any skill but for you to say he is outperforming Phaneuf at the same level? You haven't shown any evidence of that? Did Barker make Team Canada? If he was a better player I'm sure the coaches would have gone with him. The fact is Phaneuf plays on a dismal team right now who is struggling to score yet he is leading the team and is second in scoring. Barker sits back, feeds his forwards the puck and racks up the assists, however he isn't on the ice for most of their goals, whereas whenever Phaneuf's on the ice, his team is for the most part successful.

    Either way, do some research to back up your stats, it'd help give credibility to your comments instead of just throwing out random thoughts.
     
  24. Reign Nateo

    Reign Nateo Registered User

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    Having watched them both play pretty extensively over the past couple seasons, I would take Phanuef at this point.

    Barker is a very good defenceman however. And I wouldn't be surprised if he is the better NHLer in the end. They are at very different stages development wise.
     
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