Peter Chiarelli and the NHL's All Time Poor GM Reigns

Big Phil

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I can't remember but when that trade was made where the Leafs playing where chances are they knew they would be giving up a top 5 pick or not? Plus was Luongo thought to have been a top 5 pick that the Leafs knew what they might be missing out on? The recent example that I know of is when Brian Burke made the Phil Kessel trade and trading those two 1st round picks that turned out to be Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton, with the difference being that trade was made prior to the 2009-2010 season.

Yeah, I'd compare it to that one too. Kessel is a fine player, but was a terrible fit in Toronto with the pressure of being "the guy". No doubt Hamilton and especially Seguin more than make up for his value.

I would say that with the Islanders in 1996 the Leafs had to have a little more awareness. This was Cliff Fletcher of all people pulling this trigger. I get the feeling there was a lot of emotion in getting Clark back as a fan favourite - and there was - but he was his usual self when he got back, injured, missed a lot of time, etc. and he was let go a couple years later. The Islanders were on a very sharp decline at this point. They were among the worst teams in the NHL in 1995 and were on their way to that in 1996 as well. Not exactly the type of team you want to give up your 1st rounder to since they were bottom feeders. Fletcher should have had some awareness with that.

The problem with this is, if you are praising the Oilers for almost making the semi-final last year, partially on the strength of Adam Larsson shoring up the defense and Milan Lucic adding a veteran presence, you can't turn around and crap on the GM for those moves just because things haven't worked out this season. And we don't have to imagine what Hall and McDavid could do together, it actually did occur. The results were underwhelming.

Well I for one have always thought the Larsson trade was a farce. In fact, I thought it was a joke when I first read it because I couldn't imagine a GM being that incompetent. Plus, keep in mind you had a 45 game sample in 2016, because that is all McDavid played, and he was a rookie. Pretty hard to look and say "Well, we have this all figured out, they don't work." That's a small sample. Even if they didn't work on the same line together can you imagine them on separate lines and the 2nd line support having Hall? Either way, you figure it out because eventually two players that can skate like they can are only an asset. Remember Gretzky and Hull? They played like 30 games together and people thought they had it all figured out. Hull would have been the perfect fit for Gretzky, you just need to let it develop.

The Oilers had a good core when they had Hall and Eberle to go with Leo, McDavid and Nuge. That core wins you a Stanley Cup for sure. Now? With two of them gone it changes things especially when you see how well they are doing outside of Edmonton.
 
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Killion

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Cliff Fletcher was just bad though.... Constantly trying to make the team as old as he was :laugh:

.... :laugh: good one.... thing is, he absolutely robbed Calgary & had it not been for Stavro's standing in his way he wouldve signed Gretzky & I'm quite certain added a number of missing pieces, the Leafs achieving a lot more than they did with what followed. Stavros claimed he'd never be able to convince the Board to agree to Gretzkys' demand that he be given a % of ownership (like 2% or whatever, signing for less than he couldve gotten elsewhere) however before he came up with that excuse asked Cliff... "how many more tickets will Wayne Gretzky sell"?.... and of course as the Gardens sold out for decades.... Dont get me wrong, not a huge Cliff Fletcher FanBoy (see the Coyotes for eg where he was employed as an "Advisor" to Gretzky & Mike Barnett) but still. He was on the right path.
 
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Trafalgar Sadge Law

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Absolutely not. They acquired a draft pick, what they do with that pick is not relevant. It's a narrative booster, but swelling doesn't count. In the same way that Pittsburgh didn't acquire Derrick Pouliot in the Jordan Steal deal and Buffalo didn't acquire Ryan Miller in the Rhett Warrener deal, the Isles did not acquire Barzal from Edmonton. How you draft and develop is a separate issue than liquidating the asset.

Maybe if a team acquired a first overall pick or some other consensus pick way up there, maybe top 3, maybe you make the case. It's a largely illogical and indefensible position for later picks. This coming from someone who had Barzal at 7 on his personal draft board, I thought the move was exquisite...but in no way did Edmonton trade Barzal, they foolishly moved good picks for a guy that didn't grade highly even in his draft year...but Barzal wasn't theirs. If Barzal didn't pan out or didn't pan out so well, the narrative would just mention 16th overall...that's how you know It's casual-fan logic, it's flimsy and circumstantial...

There's already a fine case to be made without trying to add garnish...the drink is best consumed without eating the parasol...
You would be incorrect. The trade was predicated on Barzal being available and only Barzal. The GMs knew exactly which prospect would be joining the New York Islanders organization in return for Griffin Reinhart, and as such, calling it the Barzal+33 for Reinhart trade is entirely appropriate.

 
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Johnny Engine

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Cliff Fletcher was just bad though.... Constantly trying to make the team as old as he was :laugh:
His first term has a mixed record- yes, he aged the team rapidly, but I don’t think any Leafs fan who lived through the era would describe it as “just bad”.
However, his second term happened when the team was getting younger, and he made a bunch of bizarre decisions that didn’t help at all.
 

Killion

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Has Don Waddell been mentioned yet? Can anyone explain his seemingly inexplicable moves in Atlanta? Because I sure cant. Over 10yrs laid waste to what shoulda coulda woulda been a pretty dangerous club. To this day I dont understand it. Now, granted he had the Hydra Headed Monster of the Atlanta Spirit Group's ownership nonsense to be dealing with however you look at what he was up to with trades & so on, almost looked like a deliberate Tank Job & there are many convinced that thats exactly what it was.

Now, I dont know about anyone else but I simply cannot imagine anyone with an ounce of integrity, and particularly someone like Don Waddell who grew up playing the game, was a late cut from the 1980 Team USA Miracle Team (he'd broken his leg)... went on to have a decent enough Minor-Pro career including as a Player/Coach would deliberately pull such stunts however with that guy theres evidence that that is exactly what he was up to as so much of it was... inexplicable... Thereafter as a GM & Executive, joined the Red Wings as an Asst GM & won a Cup before joining Atlanta.... and thereafter, really had to wonder about that guy. His record in terms of personnel absolutely appalling.
 

Michael Farkas

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You would be incorrect. The trade was predicated on Barzal being available and only Barzal. The GMs knew exactly which prospect would be joining the New York Islanders organization in return for Griffin Reinhart, and as such, calling it the Barzal+33 for Reinhart trade is entirely appropriate.



We have already established upthread that this position is indefensible. The Oilers never owned the rights to Barzal and therefore could not trade him. That's all. The rest of your case regarding everything else stands, it's all fine. The Barzal part is convenient trivia, but it is not up for debate as the Oilers trading Barzal simply did not happen.
 

Hobnobs

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We have already established upthread that this position is indefensible. The Oilers never owned the rights to Barzal and therefore could not trade him. That's all. The rest of your case regarding everything else stands, it's all fine. The Barzal part is convenient trivia, but it is not up for debate as the Oilers trading Barzal simply did not happen.

I could very well call what you are doing for "pettifogging".
 

JackFr

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We have already established upthread that this position is indefensible. The Oilers never owned the rights to Barzal and therefore could not trade him. That's all. The rest of your case regarding everything else stands, it's all fine. The Barzal part is convenient trivia, but it is not up for debate as the Oilers trading Barzal simply did not happen.

People condemn the Yashin Milbury trade in large part because he gave up the Spezza pick. The fact that the Islanders never held Spezza's NHL rights doesn't mitigate the disaster of the trade. Should we ignore the fact that the Senators chose to take Spezza?
 
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Kyle McMahon

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Well I for one have always thought the Larsson trade was a farce. In fact, I thought it was a joke when I first read it because I couldn't imagine a GM being that incompetent. Plus, keep in mind you had a 45 game sample in 2016, because that is all McDavid played, and he was a rookie. Pretty hard to look and say "Well, we have this all figured out, they don't work." That's a small sample. Even if they didn't work on the same line together can you imagine them on separate lines and the 2nd line support having Hall? Either way, you figure it out because eventually two players that can skate like they can are only an asset. Remember Gretzky and Hull? They played like 30 games together and people thought they had it all figured out. Hull would have been the perfect fit for Gretzky, you just need to let it develop.

But if you admit that the Oilers seemed to be on the brink of great things last spring, (nearly a year after the Hall-Larsson trade), how can you point to this trade as evidence of disastrous GM-ing? Unless you're of the opinion that the Oilers still would have repeated last season's success without Larsson's steadying presence on defense.

This trade was never popular among most Oilers fans, no doubt. But even people who didn't like the move were rather mum about it last May.

The Oilers had a good core when they had Hall and Eberle to go with Leo, McDavid and Nuge. That core wins you a Stanley Cup for sure. Now? With two of them gone it changes things especially when you see how well they are doing outside of Edmonton.

Or finishes 27th overall. Only 45 games of McDavid, sure. But still. For years fans complained about Tambellini and MacTavish sitting on their hands while the team finished dead last year after year. Chiarelli came in and made some big moves after a bad first season...everyone still complains. I think this thread is probably 5 years premature. The book is still being written. At the moment Chiarelli can only really be judged based on what he did with Boston. Some good moves, some bad ones, one Stanley Cup and one other time coming very close. Pretty much any team would accept that track record. He has no business being mentioned alongside the Don Waddell's of the world in this thread.
 

Damisoph

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Cliff Fletcher was just bad though.... Constantly trying to make the team as old as he was :laugh:

The Jeff Finger debacle was the low point for Cliff v2.0. The story goes that Cliff thought he was signing Kurt Sauer, not Jeff Finger. When news of the 4 year $14M ($3.5M AAV) contract broke, most pundits thought the $3.5M was the total over 4 years, not the annual salary. The Alex Steen/Carlo Colaiacovo for Lee Stempniak trade is not far behind on the debacle scale.

Dang, when you really start to look at it, most of the Leafs GMs over the last twenty years could be on this list. Nonis and his Clarkson signing, Burke and his Kessel trade. I have to stop this, I'm getting depressed.
 

Big Phil

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But if you admit that the Oilers seemed to be on the brink of great things last spring, (nearly a year after the Hall-Larsson trade), how can you point to this trade as evidence of disastrous GM-ing? Unless you're of the opinion that the Oilers still would have repeated last season's success without Larsson's steadying presence on defense.

This trade was never popular among most Oilers fans, no doubt. But even people who didn't like the move were rather mum about it last May.

Or do the Oilers get passed a very, very tight series with Anaheim with Hall up front? I am just not sold on Larsson. Eberle didn't do anything in the playoffs last year, but I still would never trade him away for Ryan Strome. Eberle has at least been a top 10 scorer in the NHL at one point. That team would have started to soar eventually anyway, and the big reason was McDavid's surge. But Leo was the big cog in the playoffs last year. All I am saying is that you are seeing just how good that team could be right now if they did have Hall and Larsson is just not the type that can replace him.



Or finishes 27th overall. Only 45 games of McDavid, sure. But still. For years fans complained about Tambellini and MacTavish sitting on their hands while the team finished dead last year after year. Chiarelli came in and made some big moves after a bad first season...everyone still complains. I think this thread is probably 5 years premature. The book is still being written. At the moment Chiarelli can only really be judged based on what he did with Boston. Some good moves, some bad ones, one Stanley Cup and one other time coming very close. Pretty much any team would accept that track record. He has no business being mentioned alongside the Don Waddell's of the world in this thread.

No, you're right, his story isn't finished yet. It isn't looking good right now, and while their penalty killing is atrocious, they are still missing a lot of their heart with Eberle, and Strome isn't cutting it. I'll agree those two bad trades aren't all of their problems, but does anyone think with Hall and Eberle on their team they are out of the playoffs right now? Because the teams they went to aren't.
 

Voight

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We have already established upthread that this position is indefensible. The Oilers never owned the rights to Barzal and therefore could not trade him. That's all. The rest of your case regarding everything else stands, it's all fine. The Barzal part is convenient trivia, but it is not up for debate as the Oilers trading Barzal simply did not happen.

This is being over technical in your effort to defend them.

The Leafs never traded Seguin to the Bruins.... but its often said how much they could have used him (pre Matthews era) and how abd they screwed up etc etc.

I don't think its fair to mention Fletcher.

He completely built one of the best teams of the 80s who went to two finals won one of them. Then he was an uncalled Gretzky high stick from another one and had some good teams during the Gilmour run. His second tenure as Leafs GM was obviously rough but he didn't want the job in the first place, he just figured he'd help out until they found a better long term option.
 
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Johnny Engine

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This is being over technical in your effort to defend them.

The Leafs never traded Seguin to the Bruins.... but its often said how much they could have used him (pre Matthews era) and how abd they screwed up etc etc.
I don't think hindsight is really the best way to look at a forsaken pick, really.
Of course the Leafs could have used Seguin. But they could have also used Granlund, Fowler, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, or any other decent player from that draft that didn't come from the pick they traded.
Burke's fault in that trade was failing to see where his team stood at the time he made the trade. That he couldn't simply add a weapon in Kessel, and two veteran defensemen in Komisarek and Beauchemin, to a barren roster, and be assured that it would stay out of the basement. In Burke's own head, his team could make big steps forward, possibly at the expense of something like a 12th overall pick, and a 20th overall pick the next year. He was wrong.

Likewise, the Oilers didn't trade their pick away in a vacuum. The spectre of a player like Barzal had to have effected the negotiations, assuming that neither team had any more perspective than your average goldfish. How many on-the-board picks were likely to find themselves at that particular pick, at the time of the trade? Few enough that an NHL GM would have all their names in mind, no? So it's not exactly "trivia" in the way that a lucky 5th round pick would be. But at the same time, you can't just plug his name into the trade as if he was the original asset.
 
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LeafsNation75

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John Ferguson Jr. had a pretty tough run for the Leafs. Whether his moves were at the behest of ownership, pathetically holding on to the "glory years" of the late 90s and early 2000s.

Trades Tuukka Rask for Andrew Raycroft. (apparently the thought at the time was Justin Pogge was the superior goalie)

Traded our 1st with other assets to SJ for Vesa Toskala. After the blunder that was the Raycroft trade, JFJ needed another starting goalie. Doug Wilson took that pick, moved up and turned it into Logan Couture.

Signed Jason Blake to a 5 year deal. Didn't really hamstring the team in terms of cap, but Blake was a peripheral player, and became a whipping boy for Leaf fans with his style which was skate around the zone and take an ineffectual shot from the high slot.

Then we had the really bad version of Cliff Fletcher, and mother****ing Burkie.
I'm not defending JFJ trading Rask for Raycroft, however I heard he tried to trade Pogge instead and the Bruins said it has to be Rask or no deal.

The trade for Toskala was also bad and it could have been their 1st round pick in 2008 instead. San Jose was given the option of the 1st round pick in 2007 or 2008 and obviously used it for 2007 when they traded up to get Couture. However was there any guarantee the Leafs would have selected him? That's why I hate theose scenarios.
 

LeafsNation75

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The Alex Steen/Carlo Colaiacovo for Lee Stempniak trade is not far behind on the debacle scale.
I think the reason for this trade was Ron Wilson who was either playing Steen on the 4th line or making him a healthy scratch. So while it was a bad trade, I don't place all the blame on Fletcher for making it based on those circumstances.
 

Fish on The Sand

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Where's the love for Rejean Houle? He traded away numerous star players for little return and was an utter failure at the draft table (other than 98). He inherited a team with Patrick Roy in nets and Pierre Turgeon, Mark Recchi, Saku Koivu and Vincent Damphousse up front. Within a few years all they had left was a frequently injured Koivu. They missed the playoffs three straight years under him and the years they did make it were the result of ridiculous goaltending.

He was completely unqualified for the job and it showed.
Looking at Montreal's center depth now its sad to think that at one time they had all 4 of Pierre Turgeon, Vincent Damphousse, Saku Koivu, and Craig Conroy on the same team and Houle turned Damphousse, Turgeon, and Conroy in to Shayne Corson, Murray Baron, and Marcel Hossa. That's impressively terrible.
 

Fish on The Sand

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I wish others said that about the Phil Kessel trade to Toronto. Yes it was obvious that the Bruins would select Tyler Seguin at #2 in 2010 with the Leafs pick and let's be honest, no one would have thought Dougie Hamilton would be available for them at #9 in 2011. Although I think some Bruins fans overhyped him because of the trade. Anyway the point is just like the Oilers did, the Leafs traded picks for Kessel.
The Leafs weren't expected to finish that close to the bottom after the Kessel trade though. That was an example of a trade that backfired.
 

LeafsNation75

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The Leafs weren't expected to finish that close to the bottom after the Kessel trade though. That was an example of a trade that backfired.
That maybe true, however how often did the Bruins fans or others who hate the Leafs mention how they traded Kessel for Seguin. The Leafs traded a 1st round pick which turned out to be him. The only NHL team who has actually traded Seguin was the Boston Bruins when he got sent to Dallas.
 

Fish on The Sand

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That maybe true, however how often did the Bruins fans or others who hate the Leafs mention how they traded Kessel for Seguin. The Leafs traded a 1st round pick which turned out to be him. The only NHL team who has actually traded Seguin was the Boston Bruins when he got sent to Dallas.
I don't care how often B's or other fans said "haha Leafs traded Seguin!" because it was non-sense. Had the Leafs been sitting on the 2nd overall pick at the time of the trade that deal would have looked way differently.

This isn't like the Lightning trading away the 4th overall pick in 2002 for Fedotenko. The Leafs didn't know what the value of their pick was and got burned on it. They should have put a top 5 protection on it, but such measures hadn't been undertaken yet in the league (despite having been common for years in the NBA).
 

LeafsNation75

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I don't care how often B's or other fans said "haha Leafs traded Seguin!" because it was non-sense. Had the Leafs been sitting on the 2nd overall pick at the time of the trade that deal would have looked way differently.

This isn't like the Lightning trading away the 4th overall pick in 2002 for Fedotenko. The Leafs didn't know what the value of their pick was and got burned on it. They should have put a top 5 protection on it, but such measures hadn't been undertaken yet in the league (despite having been common for years in the NBA).
Agreed that Burke should have made the 2010 1st round pick top 10 conditional and if the Leafs kept it the Bruins would get it no matter what in 2011.

As for the Lightning example they still won the Cup in 2004 and Fedotenko scored their only 2 goals of Game 7, plus he scored 12 goals during the playoffs.
 

Fish on The Sand

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Agreed that Burke should have made the 2010 1st round pick top 10 conditional and if the Leafs kept it the Bruins would get it no matter what in 2011.

As for the Lightning example they still won the Cup in 2004 and Fedotenko scored their only 2 goals of Game 7, plus he scored 12 goals during the playoffs.
That's a case of one guy having a fluke playoff run though. He never broke 50 points in his career and was moved literally the day before the draft for a 4th overall pick. That is an example of highway robbery, not the Leafs gambling on picks that had no defined value yet. Especially considering that Kessel was already one of the top 5-10 goal scorers in the league by that time and that they were picking him up from a divisional rival.
 

LeafsNation75

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That's a case of one guy having a fluke playoff run though. He never broke 50 points in his career and was moved literally the day before the draft for a 4th overall pick. That is an example of highway robbery, not the Leafs gambling on picks that had no defined value yet. Especially considering that Kessel was already one of the top 5-10 goal scorers in the league by that time.
In the end it sucks that Kessel was not traded to them at the 2009 draft. Remember how Chiarelli thought the Bruins were getting Tomas Kaberle and the Leafs 1st round pick at 7th overall, however Burke thought the Leafs were getting Kessel and the Bruins 1st round pick at 25th overall in exchange for Kaberle. Although if that happens the Leafs never get Nazem Kadri, however chances are they still finish 29th overall in 2010 and get to select Tyler Seguin at #2 overall and who knows who they might have got in 2011 at #9.
 

Voight

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I'm not defending JFJ trading Rask for Raycroft, however I heard he tried to trade Pogge instead and the Bruins said it has to be Rask or no deal.

The trade for Toskala was also bad and it could have been their 1st round pick in 2008 instead. San Jose was given the option of the 1st round pick in 2007 or 2008 and obviously used it for 2007 when they traded up to get Couture. However was there any guarantee the Leafs would have selected him? That's why I hate theose scenarios.

On the flip side I have read that JFJ didn't want to trade Pogge because he had just lead Canada to Gold at the WJC and he thought it would look bad trading such an esteemed goalie. he was also WHL+CHL goalie of the year in 2006.

The Leafs weren't expected to finish that close to the bottom after the Kessel trade though. That was an example of a trade that backfired.

It did backfire tremendously but if they never make that trade chances are they aren't bad enough to A) Reboot and hire Shanny/Babcock/Hunter etc and B) Draft Matthews-Rielly-Marner-Nylander.

So while I am sure having Seguin & possibly Hamilton would be nice, they could very well win a cup with the core they got instead.
 

LeafsNation75

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It did backfire tremendously but if they never make that trade chances are they aren't bad enough to A) Reboot and hire Shanny/Babcock/Hunter etc and B) Draft Matthews-Rielly-Marner-Nylander.
Isn't more fair to say they might never hire Shanahan, Babcock, Lamoriello, Hunter and Dubas if they never blow that 4-1 lead to the Bruins in Game 7? Chances are if that doesn't happen I say they would have defeated the Rangers in the 2nd round and how knows what happens against Pittsburgh in the Eastern Conference Finals.
 

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