GDT: PDF GAME 4 - San Jose Sharks Vs. Vegas Golden Knights - 7 PM PST, NBCSN

Juxtaposer

Outro: Divina Comedia
Dec 21, 2009
47,379
15,698
Bay Area
90% of the posts on this board wanted the Sharks to do a complete rebuild before the 2016 season because they wouldn't accomplish **** until they did. You all aren't very good at predicting ****. Not that it's easy. Even the pro's get wrong more often than not.

Here it is! My favorite “you aren’t a pro so you shouldn’t have opinions” take! This thread has it all.
 

Boy Hedican

Homer Jr, friends call me Ho-Ju
Jul 12, 2006
5,084
1,166
Earff
Tampa is the only team we should be really scared of based on regular season play. We maybe had half a good period against them all year. Jets, Preds, VGK, all fairly even and the way we’re all playing now, im not worried. Boston does scare me, but they’re not firing on all cyclinders right now and arguably ether is Tampa.

Our last game, which I’ve seen twice now, is probably one of the most complete wins in the second round.
 

Led Zappa

Tomorrow Today
Jan 8, 2007
50,344
872
Silicon Valley
Tampa is the only team we should be really scared of based on regular season play. We maybe had half a good period against them all year. Jets, Preds, VGK, all fairly even and the way we’re all playing now, im not worried. Boston does scare me, but they’re not firing on all cyclinders right now and arguably ether is Tampa.

Our last game, which I’ve seen twice now, is probably one of the most complete wins in the second round.

True, but you never know. No team is going to be AS fast as they were early in the season. Just like goalies playing too many games in a season, a team is probably gonna lose some of that explosiveness that they had earlier in the season. Especially for a whole game / series. Plus, as seen in this series, making adjustments during a 7 game series where no team is playing B2B or 3 in 4 nights can change things a lot.
 

hockeyball

Registered User
Nov 10, 2007
21,552
886
Examples, with how long it took?

Examples of what? My point was just you are talking about hindsight, but in this case we do not know what the results of going the rebuild route would have been so it's impossible to say what they did do was the 'right' thing. It also has yet to play out completely, by next year, if we don't win the cup, and have some bad luck, we could be looking back and saying "man, I wish we had rebuilt in 2016"

So yah, so far things have gone better then expected, but that doesn't make people who had a different opinion wrong, and it certainly doesn't prove their ideas would not have worked.
 

Led Zappa

Tomorrow Today
Jan 8, 2007
50,344
872
Silicon Valley
Examples of what? My point was just you are talking about hindsight, but in this case we do not know what the results of going the rebuild route would have been so it's impossible to say what they did do was the 'right' thing. It also has yet to play out completely, by next year, if we don't win the cup, and have some bad luck, we could be looking back and saying "man, I wish we had rebuilt in 2016"

So yah, so far things have gone better then expected, but that doesn't make people who had a different opinion wrong, and it certainly doesn't prove their ideas would not have worked.

I have a pretty good idea what would have happened. I'd just look at Buffalo, Edmonton, LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh and on and on. Show me where it worked in less than 5-10 years if it worked at all.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
I have a pretty good idea what would have happened. I'd just look at Buffalo, Edmonton, LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh and on and on. Show me where it worked in less than 5-10 years if it worked at all.

The time frame is 4 years after drafting your franchise player to win your first Cup.

Doughty was drafted in 2008, Kings win in 2012.
Crosby drafted in 2005, Penguins win in 2009.
Toews Drafted in 2006, Hawks win (Hawks win!) in 2010.

You also need at least one other lottery pick in that time frame to succeed.
 

LA Shark

Hello Darkness My Old Freind
Feb 18, 2017
3,576
2,573
Southern California
Lol this team has a good chance at making the conference finals and there are still people debating that maybe we should have rebuilt? That's not how professional sports work. You don't dismantle a highly competitive team just cause they aren't the odds on favorite to win a cup.
 

hockfan1991

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
2,073
296
The time frame is 4 years after drafting your franchise player to win your first Cup.

Doughty was drafted in 2008, Kings win in 2012.
Crosby drafted in 2005, Penguins win in 2009.
Toews Drafted in 2006, Hawks win (Hawks win!) in 2010.

You also need at least one other lottery pick in that time frame to succeed.

Mcdavid will break the cycle, not happening
 

LA Shark

Hello Darkness My Old Freind
Feb 18, 2017
3,576
2,573
Southern California
The time frame is 4 years after drafting your franchise player to win your first Cup.

Doughty was drafted in 2008, Kings win in 2012.
Crosby drafted in 2005, Penguins win in 2009.
Toews Drafted in 2006, Hawks win (Hawks win!) in 2010.

You also need at least one other lottery pick in that time frame to succeed.
Problem is you have to actually draft that franchise player first. No guarantee that happens the first couple go arounds or ever for that matter. A little bad luck in the lottery and some bad drafting and you could be stuck in purgatory forever. Dont get me wrong, the time to rebuild comes for all teams, I'm just saying that time isnt when you have a playoff team, that also has a feasible path to future success as well. And anyone hoping that it is will be disappointed 100% of the time.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Mcdavid will break the cycle, not happening

Matthews can get it done in 2020 and continue the cycle, which is a lot more likely.

It’s pretty funny that the three-headed tank monster all won a Cup 4 years after picking their franchise player and then won again later but if Tampa wins, they drafted Stamkos and Hedman #1 and #2 as well. For the tank cycle to be broken, you have to be cheering against Tampa and Pittsburgh. I might honestly take those two over the field.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,232
13,602
Folsom
Lol this team has a good chance at making the conference finals and there are still people debating that maybe we should have rebuilt? That's not how professional sports work. You don't dismantle a highly competitive team just cause they aren't the odds on favorite to win a cup.

To be fair, the bulk of those calls came after they had choked the series against LA and followed up with their first missed playoff of DW's tenure. You can disagree with the idea and that's fine but it was a perfectly reasonable and respectable option to look at in that moment. They're not really in a position to really rebuild right now given their playoff run thus far and the lack of assets to be moved right now but then they were a lot more flexible in what they could have done.
 

spintops

Registered User
Sep 13, 2013
1,624
783
I'm pretty happy/content with the "rebuild" so far. At the time people said trade Pavelski before the wheels fall off. "This team won't make the playoffs without Thornton/Patty".

We are a winnable series away from the WCF without Jumbo/Patty. No one would have guessed that at the time.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
4,343
2,244
San Jose
Maybe I'm overrating the Preds, but they have looked pretty good so far other than Rinne...
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
32,277
12,441
The time frame is 4 years after drafting your franchise player to win your first Cup.

Doughty was drafted in 2008, Kings win in 2012.
Crosby drafted in 2005, Penguins win in 2009.
Toews Drafted in 2006, Hawks win (Hawks win!) in 2010.

You also need at least one other lottery pick in that time frame to succeed.
IMO those tank teams took advantage of the salary cap more so than anything else.they were rebuilding at a time when most other teams were just paying guys more than the salary cap could handle
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,232
13,602
Folsom
Maybe I'm overrating the Preds, but they have looked pretty good so far other than Rinne...

They've been good enough to get them where they are but they're not getting much from Turris' line and Josi but so far they haven't had to. If a team finds a way to stop the Johansen-Forsberg duo like the Sharks have done before, they're vulnerable if Turris' line continues to not doing anything. Johansen-Forsberg-Subban who are all on the ice together most of the time are carrying them from a production standpoint.
 

RickyHP

Registered User
May 9, 2013
1,449
423
Bay Area, CA
i feel like the sharks of this era are like the 90s sabers teams. always so good and competitive, ice championship teams but always run into bad luck. whether its injuries or a juggernaut team, sharks have had so many opportunities.

i think the sharks would have two cups right now if it weren't for that vancouver team in 2011 or the pens team in 16
 

LA Shark

Hello Darkness My Old Freind
Feb 18, 2017
3,576
2,573
Southern California
To be fair, the bulk of those calls came after they had choked the series against LA and followed up with their first missed playoff of DW's tenure. You can disagree with the idea and that's fine but it was a perfectly reasonable and respectable option to look at in that moment. They're not really in a position to really rebuild right now given their playoff run thus far and the lack of assets to be moved right now but then they were a lot more flexible in what they could have done.
Haha that's my bad, only skimmed over the posts. Thought we were talking about those calling for a full rebuild this past offseason.
 

hockeyball

Registered User
Nov 10, 2007
21,552
886
I have a pretty good idea what would have happened. I'd just look at Buffalo, Edmonton, LA, Chicago, Pittsburgh and on and on. Show me where it worked in less than 5-10 years if it worked at all.

LA = Cup x2, Chicago = Cup x3, Pittsburgh = Cup x3...

Look, I'm not arguing that we'd be in a better spot (playoffs wise) right now had we gone another route, that's not relevant. We would be 2 years into a rebuild, and could possibly be better off 2-3 years from now than we will be given our current crew. My point is, rebuilding was an entirely valid option at that point, and while things have worked out pretty well (we still don't have a cup), better than expected anyway, that doesn't mean rebuilding would have been a mistake. If we make the playoffs for another 3 years for instance, no cup, and end up rebuilding anyway... Was that worth it?

Basically I'm not saying we should have rebuilt, I'm just arguing that assuming since one course of action worked out favorably, does not mean the other course of action would have worked out poorly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FunkyPhin

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,232
13,602
Folsom
Haha that's my bad, only skimmed over the posts. Thought we were talking about those calling for a full rebuild this past offseason.

I'm sure there were some calling for it this past off-season. I understand why given the age of a lot of our good players but the contracts they have now with Vlasic and Burns make that pretty difficult to do effectively.
 

Led Zappa

Tomorrow Today
Jan 8, 2007
50,344
872
Silicon Valley
It’s always been your position, though. You always love to pop in and remind us all how wrong we are, all while never having your own opinion other than to support every move Doug Wilson and the coach make.

I stated my opinion over and over again, to the consternation of this board, that we shouldn't rebuild and that this team would be competitive, meaning chance at the cup, without it. Keep trying to rewrite history, though.
 

Led Zappa

Tomorrow Today
Jan 8, 2007
50,344
872
Silicon Valley
LA = Cup x2, Chicago = Cup x3, Pittsburgh = Cup x3...

Look, I'm not arguing that we'd be in a better spot (playoffs wise) right now had we gone another route, that's not relevant. We would be 2 years into a rebuild, and could possibly be better off 2-3 years from now than we will be given our current crew. My point is, rebuilding was an entirely valid option at that point, and while things have worked out pretty well (we still don't have a cup), better than expected anyway, that doesn't mean rebuilding would have been a mistake. If we make the playoffs for another 3 years for instance, no cup, and end up rebuilding anyway... Was that worth it?

Basically I'm not saying we should have rebuilt, I'm just arguing that assuming since one course of action worked out favorably, does not mean the other course of action would have worked out poorly.

That's true sometimes. Not here.

And yes, it's already worth it.

To the bolded.

No it wasn't. It takes more time to tank and rebuild than 3-5 years just to get that franchise player. Your looking at 5-10 years. Period. And still have the chance to end up like Edmonton or Buffalo or even the Leafs. How long have they been rebuilding. You were wrong then and it's been proven wrong by the facts of history. There are no both sides are right here. You flat out said we wouldn't have a real chance for the Cup without rebuilding, so tank now while we can get assets for our veterans. Never mind we were never getting anything for Marleau or Thornton.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
LA = Cup x2, Chicago = Cup x3, Pittsburgh = Cup x3...

Look, I'm not arguing that we'd be in a better spot (playoffs wise) right now had we gone another route, that's not relevant. We would be 2 years into a rebuild, and could possibly be better off 2-3 years from now than we will be given our current crew. My point is, rebuilding was an entirely valid option at that point, and while things have worked out pretty well (we still don't have a cup), better than expected anyway, that doesn't mean rebuilding would have been a mistake. If we make the playoffs for another 3 years for instance, no cup, and end up rebuilding anyway... Was that worth it?

Basically I'm not saying we should have rebuilt, I'm just arguing that assuming since one course of action worked out favorably, does not mean the other course of action would have worked out poorly.

Until a team without back-to-back top-5 draft picks wins a Stanley Cup, or even doesn’t get crushed in the SCF, I’m going to find it difficult to say that tanking wasn’t the right idea. We absolutely could have pulled it off and 2015 would have been perfect timing because McDavid was up in that year.

Had we gone full tank in 2015, we could have drafted Barzal. (Obv we could draft him anyway but in hindsight he is the best pick outside of McDavid and maybe Eichel). In 2016, if we tanked again, we could have had a shot at Tkachuk, Keller, McAvoy. Last year we probably would have been in a position to try and make minor improvement trade/signings and try to push us back to being a playoff team. We could have a young core of Hertl, Barzal, Sergachev, Tierney, LaBanc, Ryan, and whatever other players we traded our core players for.

We probably could have traded Logan Couture for Seth Jones since Jones got a struggling Ryan Johansen 1-for-1 and Couture is better than Johansen. A guy like Vlasic or Burns could probably have returned a player like Draisaitl in 2014. The other of that duo could have returned us another

It’s very realistic to say we could have a young core of the following:

Hertl-Barzal-Pavelski
X-Draisaitl-X
X-Tierney-LaBanc

Sergachev-Jones
Ryan-X

The 2016-2017 season would be a season to try to make the playoffs. A UFA signing like Boedker then wouldn’t have been a bad idea at all although he probably would have cost more. You get the team entirely out of the tank mentality and try to win. Maybe they don’t make the playoffs, but improvement is key. During this 2017-2018 season, doing exactly what DW did with Evander Kane wouldn’t be a bad idea at all.

Kane-Barzal-Pavelski
Hertl-Draisaitl-Boedker
Trade Acquisition-Tierney-LaBanc

Sergachev-Jones
Ryan-Trade/Homegrown pick

This is a fantastic core and one of these moves are very unrealistic or idealistic at all. I guess you’re assuming that our picks don’t bust, but you’re also assuming that we don’t win a single lottery. Realistically, you could be replacing Barzal with McDavid/Eichel, or Sergachev with Matthews/Laine/PLD, and potentially adding another elite core piece from any one of the Marleau/Thornton/Burns/Vlasic/Braun trades.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->