Paul Kariya vs. Ryan Getzlaf

[toothlessgoon]

Who was better

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[knifer]

Kariya was in a different stratosphere.

 

[Killer Orcas]

Better player Kariya hands down better career Getzlaf very different players though.

 

[Machinehead]

Kariya low-key had one of the best seasons ever.

108 points when his next-best teammate had 44.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

OFF THE FLOOR. ON THE BOARD: PAUL KARIYA.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Kariya. If not for the injuries he would have been even better.

 

[bsu]

If Kariya played in this era with these rules, he would literally be unreal.

 

[Bouboumaster]

It's Kariya, all day every day
He's one of my favorite player ever

 

[Kaiden Ghoul]

Kariya for shizzle my le

But Getzlaf is in my top 2 of my favorite player the last 10 years with Iggy outside of the habs

 

[Lt Dan]

Peak Kariya >>>>>Getzlaf

 

[Plural]

Kariya low-key had one of the best seasons ever.

108 points when his next-best teammate had 44.

Yeah. But didn't he have Selanne for like 30 or so games that season? But still, great season.

 

[Felidae]

I'm not entirely convinced peak Kariya is significantly better than Getzlaf.

Here's a comparison between their best seasons

Getzlaf 2013-14

2nd in points, 3rd in PPG, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in selke voting.

10 more points than the 10th highest point producer 18 more points than 20th ranked.



Kariya 1996-97

3rd in points, 4th in PPG, 9th in goals, 5th in GPG, 2nd in Hart voting (competed against Lemieux's last award win)

11 more points than 10th highest point producer, 17 more points than 20th ranked point producer.


Both have a similar production gap over their competition, both were runner ups to unanimous Hart winners. Getzlaf has the physical and defensive edge, Kariya is a significantly better goal scorer.

As players, definitely not as lopsided as the poll would have you believe imo. If anything, it's pretty damn close.

I think it's a case of Kariya's raw totals jumping out in the "DPE" despite the early 2010s being a lower scoring era than the late 90, and the fact that Kariya was a much flashier player.

 

[BKarchitect]

If Kariya played in this era with these rules, he would literally be unreal.

He’d look like a lot like smaller McDavid out there.

 

[Buck Naked]

I'm not entirely convinced peak Kariya is significantly better than Getzlaf.

Here's a comparison between their best seasons

Getzlaf 2013-14

2nd in points, 3rd in PPG, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in selke voting.

10 more points than the 10th highest point producer 18 more points than 20th ranked.



Kariya 1996-97

3rd in points, 4th in PPG, 9th in goals, 5th in GPG, 2nd in Hart voting (competed against Lemieux's last award win)

11 more points than 10th highest point producer, 17 more points than 20th ranked point producer.


Both have a similar production gap over their competition, both were runner ups to unanimous Hart winners. Getzlaf has the physical and defensive edge, Kariya is a significantly better goal scorer.

As players, definitely not as lopsided as the poll would have you believe imo. If anything, it's pretty damn close.

I think it's a case of Kariya's raw totals jumping out in the "DPE" despite the early 2010s being a lower scoring era than the late 90, and the fact that Kariya was a much flashier player.

Kariya 96/97
108 points
Second player on the team: 44 points

Getzlaf 13/14
87 points
Second player on the team: 82 points

 

[bsu]

He’d look like a lot like smaller McDavid out there.

I agree

 

[Albatros]

I'm not entirely convinced peak Kariya is significantly better than Getzlaf.

Here's a comparison between their best seasons

Getzlaf 2013-14

2nd in points, 3rd in PPG, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in selke voting.

10 more points than the 10th highest point producer 18 more points than 20th ranked.



Kariya 1996-97

3rd in points, 4th in PPG, 9th in goals, 5th in GPG, 2nd in Hart voting (competed against Lemieux's last award win)

11 more points than 10th highest point producer, 17 more points than 20th ranked point producer.


Both have a similar production gap over their competition, both were runner ups to unanimous Hart winners. Getzlaf has the physical and defensive edge, Kariya is a significantly better goal scorer.

As players, definitely not as lopsided as the poll would have you believe imo. If anything, it's pretty damn close.

I think it's a case of Kariya's raw totals jumping out in the "DPE" despite the early 2010s being a lower scoring era than the late 90, and the fact that Kariya was a much flashier player.

To add some context, Kariya finished 3rd in points (44+55=99) that season despite having played in only 69 games due to injuries. Wasn't weakness of competition either as 17 out of top 24 scorers that season are already in the HHoF and at least Jágr a lock as well. All credit to Getzlaf's (31+56=87) second place too of course, but he was followed by Giroux, Seguin, Perry, Hall, Kessel, Bäckström, and Benn. Not the most impressive scoring year in league history to say the least.

Kariya by the way did beat Lemieux in the Hart race, but lost to Dominik Hašek. Getzlaf was followed by Claude Giroux and Semyon Varlamov.

 

[JackSlater]

Kariya was better, though Getzlaf was more well rounded and had more value over the course of his career.

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Kariya pretty easily

 

[wintersej]

Kariya was one of the most fun and best players I have ever seen.

 

[Regal]

I'm not entirely convinced peak Kariya is significantly better than Getzlaf.

Here's a comparison between their best seasons

Getzlaf 2013-14

2nd in points, 3rd in PPG, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in selke voting.

10 more points than the 10th highest point producer 18 more points than 20th ranked.



Kariya 1996-97

3rd in points, 4th in PPG, 9th in goals, 5th in GPG, 2nd in Hart voting (competed against Lemieux's last award win)

11 more points than 10th highest point producer, 17 more points than 20th ranked point producer.


Both have a similar production gap over their competition, both were runner ups to unanimous Hart winners. Getzlaf has the physical and defensive edge, Kariya is a significantly better goal scorer.

As players, definitely not as lopsided as the poll would have you believe imo. If anything, it's pretty damn close.

I think it's a case of Kariya's raw totals jumping out in the "DPE" despite the early 2010s being a lower scoring era than the late 90, and the fact that Kariya was a much flashier player.

Kariya’s PPG was significantly better relative to the pack though. He was 24.3% better than 10th place and 37.4% better than 20th. Getzlaf was only 9.7% better than 10th and 18.9% better than 20th. He was also closer to Lemieux in PPG (88.9% of his number) than Getzlaf was to Crosby (86.9). He was closer still to Jagr, who is probably a better Crosby equivalent at the time (94.7). 13-14 was also part of a weak period for top end forwards, similar to the early 2000s.

I would say there’s also a big difference between doing something once and doing it every year though. In a 5 year period, Kariya finished 3,3,4,7 in points and had the best points per game in the league over 22 games in his other season. Getzlaf’s surrounded this year with a 10th place finish before it (6th in PPG), but outside of the top 10 the year after. He had another top 10 season and a couple top 10 PPG seasons, but they were separated by other years outside the top 10. I have trouble saying two players had similar peaks if one did it over multiple seasons and the other didn’t, because variance can play a large role in point totals.

 

[Video Nasty]

I'm not entirely convinced peak Kariya is significantly better than Getzlaf.

Here's a comparison between their best seasons

Getzlaf 2013-14

2nd in points, 3rd in PPG, 2nd in Hart voting, 10th in selke voting.

10 more points than the 10th highest point producer 18 more points than 20th ranked.



Kariya 1996-97

3rd in points, 4th in PPG, 9th in goals, 5th in GPG, 2nd in Hart voting (competed against Lemieux's last award win)

11 more points than 10th highest point producer, 17 more points than 20th ranked point producer.


Both have a similar production gap over their competition, both were runner ups to unanimous Hart winners. Getzlaf has the physical and defensive edge, Kariya is a significantly better goal scorer.

As players, definitely not as lopsided as the poll would have you believe imo. If anything, it's pretty damn close.

I think it's a case of Kariya's raw totals jumping out in the "DPE" despite the early 2010s being a lower scoring era than the late 90, and the fact that Kariya was a much flashier player.

I rarely do this and I know you’ll say that you did, but you either were not following the NHL during the time or you totally forgot about Kariya and the opinion the league, fans, and media all held for him.

Looking at raw totals and surface level finishes is a huge tell and I see it in every single thread that relates to him.

For Getzlaf, finishing second to Crosby in scoring and Hart voting while Malkin missed his usual 22 games, Ovechkin barely scraped 1 PPG at age 28, Stamkos missed 45 games, Tavares missed 23, Zetterberg missed 37, and the crop of players directly behind in the scoring race are Giroux, Seguin, Perry, Hall, Kessel, etc is a lot different than:

Kariya finishing 3rd in the scoring behind Mario and teammate Selanne who played 9 more games, had 10 more points, and still finished a distant 5th in voting. Kariya missed 13 games. I’m not going to pretend that other elite players of the time also didn’t miss time (Jagr missed 19 games, Lindros 30, Sakic and Forsberg each missed 17 games), but Kariya likely only drops 1 spot in the Hart and Art Ross race if everyone in the league plays the full slate.

Hasek wins the Hart either way. Lindros almost certainly is runner up in the Art Ross race and runner up in Hart voting if he doesn’t miss the first 23 games of the season and 30 games overall. Kariya gets bumped down in each 1 spot.

It’s one thing to argue that Getzlaf had a better career (you mention the league being lower scoring in 2013-2014, but fail to mention that the league also does a far better job of protecting its superstars). I wouldn’t argue that Getzlaf’s relative good health, compiling, and a few good seasons gives him any sort of edge, but I can see the argument. It’s another thing to argue that he and Kariya are in the same stratosphere in terms of talent and peak.

What is also failed to mention is that 1997-1998 through 1999-2000 were all lower or equal to 2013-2014 in scoring (I will recognize that scoring at a surface level was still lower across the board for top level players in 13-14) and Kariya still had better seasons than anything Getzlaf ever had. Yes, coming back after a contract dispute in 1997-1998 and ripping off 17 goals and 31 points in his 22 games before getting concussed for the 4th time in 4 years is still a higher level than anything Getzlaf ever managed.

Kariya is not a player you can skim career stat logs, raw totals, and finishes to form the opinion that you have. Nor are the 90% who cast a vote for him blinded by nostalgia, foggy memories, and/or style over substance.

 

[hamzarocks]

Kariya low-key had one of the best seasons ever.

108 points when his next-best teammate had 44.

Similar to Bure in peak DPE

He had 92 while his next best teammate had 37 (in 51 but still)

Did Kariya also have his 108 year in DPE or was it higher scoring?

 

[Machinehead]

Similar to Bure in peak DPE

He had 92 while his next best teammate had 37 (in 51 but still)

Did Kariya also have his 108 year in DPE or was it higher scoring?

Definitely not. The DPE was decidedly after the 90's imo.

Although I think Bure is generally more highly regarded anyway.

 

[Video Nasty]

Similar to Bure in peak DPE

He had 92 while his next best teammate had 37 (in 51 but still)

Did Kariya also have his 108 year in DPE or was it higher scoring?

DPE is commonly seen as being in full swing in 1997-1998 and lasting through 2003-2004 and ending once they changed rules for the 2005-2006 season.

It’s worth noting that no matter how much people try to make adjusted scoring cut and dry, it is still flawed and never quite makes total sense.

For instance, with Kariya himself:

1995-1996 at age 21, he put up 108 points in 82 games on a team that scored 234 goals in a league scoring environment of 3.14 GPG.

1998-1999 at age 24, he put up 101 points in 82 games on a team that scored 215 goals in a league scoring environment of 2.63 GPG the season after sustaining his 4th concussion.

Adjusted stats can’t explain the younger, non-concussed player in a higher scoring league with more power play opportunities notching just 7 more points.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.