Paul Kariya finally admits he wouldn't be in the Hall of fame without Selanne

[saffronleaf]

Gretzky

LA with Wayne = 0 cups
Without = 2

Therefore Gretzky was not great. K.

Edmonton without Gretzky = 1 cup
Gretzky without Edmonton = 0 cups

 

[GoJetsGo55]

LOL what is this thread?

How did this all go down?

I just picture OP sitting there watching the inductions

"And I would have never made it to the hall without Teemu"

OP: "AAAAAAAAAAAAH HA!!!!!!!!" *furious typing*

 

[Ainec]

I found your calling OP

 

[Legionnaire]

LOL what is this thread?

How did this all go down?

I just picture OP sitting there watching the inductions

"And I would have never made it to the hall without Teemu"

OP: "AAAAAAAAAAAAH HA!!!!!!!!" *furious typing*

Tada! For my next trick OJ Simpson! :waves magic wand:

 

[ColdSteel2]

I found your calling OP

Lol, these headlines seem pretty normal and reasonable in comparison to the regular news.

 

[The Panther]

I found your calling OP

Is Dr. Phil a generational TV host??

 

[Elvs]

Kariya still holds the record for most points in a season in Predators history. And when Kariya played in Nashville he was pretty far removed from his prime. Prime Kariya would have faired well even without Teemu.

 

[Canucks1096]

Kariya scored 50 goals and 108 pts in his sophomore season, without Selanne. He was just as good, if not better.

No

54 games 65 points without Teemu
28 games 43 points with Teemu

 

[vippe]

Classic Mulletman thread.

 

[Elvs]

Still amazing what Selanne did in the NHL without never really having a legit 1st line center(in a contender level team). I think his Olympic and World cup stats are great indication what he could have done with a legit center.

Andy McDonald was criminally underrated. But due to being a late bloomer, and dealing with multiple concussions, his career stats are "meh".

I get that he was no Sidney Crosby, but I don't know if there would have been any better fit for Teemu between 2005-2007. They had tremendous chemistry. I mean, there's a reason for my avatar

 

[The Panther]

Here is what I wrote a half-year ago, on the History Forum, concerning Selanne and Kariya... The point is not to argue that Kariya was "better", but just that they're very comparable, and also that the narrative of Selanne as the better player is largely a latter-day one, created in Selanne's late-career (generally a period when the hockey world views such players -- i.e., elder ones have big seasons, late -- from rose-tinted glasses, sometimes losing perspective somewhat):

*********************

....Let's look at both players' challenging 2000 to 2004 period. First, just the raw stats:

REGULAR SEASON:
Selanne 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 81st
PTS = 222 (-22)

Kariya 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 33rd
PTS = 241 (-32)

PLAYOFFS:
Selanne 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 116th (only 28 games)
PTS = 13 (-3)

Kariya 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 68th (only 22 games)
PTS = 13 (-1)

In the regular season, you have to say Kariya was better. (And he was certainly better in their one shared season in Colorado.) He earned a 2nd-team All Star in 2003.

In the playoffs, both are quite underwhelming in this period. However, Kariya captained a team to the Stanley Cup Finals, scoring an overtime goal along the way, and finished 3rd in team scoring (one point away from first). In this period, Selanne managed 5 goals in 28 games -- including 0 in 10 games with Colorado.

I think we have to conclude that Kariya was the better player from 2000 to 2004. I personally also think he was the *slightly* better player from 1995 to 2000 (but it's very close).

Therefore, I think I can make a strong case that Kariya was the better player from 1995 to 2004, a period of 10 seasons in both players' primes.


Now, let's get onto the post-lockout period:

Who was better? Selanne, you say! Yes, I agree. Selanne had his remarkable 'comeback' two seasons in 2005-2007, and he was superb. But he really wasn't that much better than Kariya.

Again, the raw stats:

REGULAR SEASON:
Selanne 2005-06 & 2006-07:
PPG = 12th
PTS = 184 (+54)

Kariya 2005-06 & 2006-07:
PPG = 35th
PTS = 161 (0)

PLAYOFFS:
Selanne 2005-06 & 2006-07:
29 PTS in 37 games (+1)

Kariya 2005-06 & 2006-07:
9 PTS in 10 games (-4)

Selanne, of course, won the Cup with Anaheim in 2007. In the two years, he scored 11 goals in 37 games. Not bad, but not exactly overwhelming either (he was 5th on his team in goals when they won the Cup, and 3rd in team scoring -- exactly as Kariya was in 2003, when he was supposedly a disappointment).


So, a definite win for Selanne in those two post-lockout years (2005-2007) BUT I hope people can see it's not a huge "win" by comparison. Offensively, Selanne scored about 10 points more per season those two years than Kariya did. However, Kariya led his team in scoring both seasons, handily, and his team had great years both seasons as well.

After summer 2007, Kariya was basically done. In my view, he made a bonehead move in signing with St.Louis, when he should have stayed where he was in Nashville to ride out his career.

Selanne had 4 more pretty good seasons after 2007. He was slowed by injuries -- as often happens to older players -- but he was still quite productive. By 2012-13 and 2013-14 he was done and dusted.

So, their career score-cards, for me, look something like this (scores out of '10'):

1992 to 1994
Selanne 9
(Kariya not in NHL yet)

1995 to 2000
Selanne 8.5
Kariya 9

2000 to 2004
Selanne 4
Kariya 6

2005 to 2007
Selanne 8
Kariya 7

2007 to 2010
Selanne 7 (0.86 PPG)
Kariya 5.5 (0.73 PPG)

2010 to 2014
Selanne 5
(Kariya not in NHL)


So, yes, Selanne has the overall better and longer career, including the one Stanley Cup (to which, however, I would argue he was somewhat less a contributor than Kariya was to his team's game 7 Finals appearance).

But in the seasons they both were active, I score it as:
Selanne 104
Kariya 108.5

However, in overall career value, with Selanne's 6 extra seasons, of course it favors Teemu as...
Selanne 142
Kariya 108.5


I think Selanne is still getting a bit of the old-man Jagr love from the fans (which is fine), but it's starting to skew perception of Kariya in comparison. Some revisionism has gone on...

[Let me say it again -- I'm not saying any of this to argue that Kariya was "better". I actually probably preferred Selanne as a player. I'm simply saying that there has been a bit of a latter-day, slightly false narrative created, that says Selanne was the superior player.]

 

[Plural]

Here is what I wrote a half-year ago, on the History Forum, concerning Selanne and Kariya... The point is not to argue that Kariya was "better", but just that they're very comparable, and also that the narrative of Selanne as the better player is largely a latter-day one, created in Selanne's late-career (generally a period when the hockey world views such players -- i.e., elder ones have big seasons, late -- from rose-tinted glasses, sometimes losing perspective somewhat):

*********************

....Let's look at both players' challenging 2000 to 2004 period. First, just the raw stats:

REGULAR SEASON:
Selanne 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 81st
PTS = 222 (-22)

Kariya 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 33rd
PTS = 241 (-32)

PLAYOFFS:
Selanne 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 116th (only 28 games)
PTS = 13 (-3)

Kariya 2000-01 to 2003-04:
PPG = 68th (only 22 games)
PTS = 13 (-1)

In the regular season, you have to say Kariya was better. (And he was certainly better in their one shared season in Colorado.) He earned a 2nd-team All Star in 2003.

In the playoffs, both are quite underwhelming in this period. However, Kariya captained a team to the Stanley Cup Finals, scoring an overtime goal along the way, and finished 3rd in team scoring (one point away from first). In this period, Selanne managed 5 goals in 28 games -- including 0 in 10 games with Colorado.

I think we have to conclude that Kariya was the better player from 2000 to 2004. I personally also think he was the *slightly* better player from 1995 to 2000 (but it's very close).

Therefore, I think I can make a strong case that Kariya was the better player from 1995 to 2004, a period of 10 seasons in both players' primes.


Now, let's get onto the post-lockout period:

Who was better? Selanne, you say! Yes, I agree. Selanne had his remarkable 'comeback' two seasons in 2005-2007, and he was superb. But he really wasn't that much better than Kariya.

Again, the raw stats:

REGULAR SEASON:
Selanne 2005-06 & 2006-07:
PPG = 12th
PTS = 184 (+54)

Kariya 2005-06 & 2006-07:
PPG = 35th
PTS = 161 (0)

PLAYOFFS:
Selanne 2005-06 & 2006-07:
29 PTS in 37 games (+1)

Kariya 2005-06 & 2006-07:
9 PTS in 10 games (-4)

Selanne, of course, won the Cup with Anaheim in 2007. In the two years, he scored 11 goals in 37 games. Not bad, but not exactly overwhelming either (he was 5th on his team in goals when they won the Cup, and 3rd in team scoring -- exactly as Kariya was in 2003, when he was supposedly a disappointment).


So, a definite win for Selanne in those two post-lockout years (2005-2007) BUT I hope people can see it's not a huge "win" by comparison. Offensively, Selanne scored about 10 points more per season those two years than Kariya did. However, Kariya led his team in scoring both seasons, handily, and his team had great years both seasons as well.

After summer 2007, Kariya was basically done. In my view, he made a bonehead move in signing with St.Louis, when he should have stayed where he was in Nashville to ride out his career.

Selanne had 4 more pretty good seasons after 2007. He was slowed by injuries -- as often happens to older players -- but he was still quite productive. By 2012-13 and 2013-14 he was done and dusted.

So, their career score-cards, for me, look something like this (scores out of '10'):

1992 to 1994
Selanne 9
(Kariya not in NHL yet)

1995 to 2000
Selanne 8.5
Kariya 9

2000 to 2004
Selanne 4
Kariya 6

2005 to 2007
Selanne 8
Kariya 7

2007 to 2010
Selanne 7 (0.86 PPG)
Kariya 5.5 (0.73 PPG)

2010 to 2014
Selanne 5
(Kariya not in NHL)


So, yes, Selanne has the overall better and longer career, including the one Stanley Cup (to which, however, I would argue he was somewhat less a contributor than Kariya was to his team's game 7 Finals appearance).

But in the seasons they both were active, I score it as:
Selanne 104
Kariya 108.5

However, in overall career value, with Selanne's 6 extra seasons, of course it favors Teemu as...
Selanne 142
Kariya 108.5


I think Selanne is still getting a bit of the old-man Jagr love from the fans (which is fine), but it's starting to skew perception of Kariya in comparison. Some revisionism has gone on...

[Let me say it again -- I'm not saying any of this to argue that Kariya was "better". I actually probably preferred Selanne as a player. I'm simply saying that there has been a bit of a latter-day, slightly false narrative created, that says Selanne was the superior player.]

I remember this post and thanks for digging it up again. The idea of Selanne being better is like you said, created in hindsight. Back in the days when they were playing Kariya was largely considered as slightly better/more important player. I think it was at the end of 97-98 season when the general opinion started to shift from Kariya > Selanne to Kariya = Selanne.

In hindsight, we (fans and media) probably were bit too high on Kariya and bit too low on Selanne as it seems that they're superbly comparable players. But back in the days it was very common to consider Kariya as the better player.

 

[Its a Trap]

How on earth has this been allowed to reach 5 pages?

 

[Mulletman]

Kariya still holds the record for most points in a season in Predators history. And when Kariya played in Nashville he was pretty far removed from his prime. Prime Kariya would have faired well even without Teemu.

But Selanne holds the record for most Points in a season in Ducks history. Oh and Selanne also holds the record for most Points in a season for the Coyotes/Jets franchise too. And if Selanne joined Kariya and played for the Predators in 2005-06 he would have the record for most Points in a season for Predators too!

 

[Mulletman]

Andy McDonald was criminally underrated. But due to being a late bloomer, and dealing with multiple concussions, his career stats are "meh".

I get that he was no Sidney Crosby, but I don't know if there would have been any better fit for Teemu between 2005-2007. They had tremendous chemistry. I mean, there's a reason for my avatar

Kariya could never make McDonald a star despite playing with him in Anaheim before Selanne. But as soon as Selanne joined the Ducks again he made McDonald into a star player. That should really tell you who's better right there!

 

[Fixxer]

He was just being nice to his teammate Teemu, with whom he spent quality years in Anaheim, as a member of the "Mighty Ducks" now named only Ducks. Kariya was Elite in his own right. Injury aside, he would have had even better numbers. How do you get your bell rung as he got by Stevens... and then score the game winner, if you are not.. Ok, David Perron did similar. lol But what I mean, let's say had he been without Selanne BUT healthier, his stats would be similar I think. But, they both deserve the award. 2 GREAT players, sensational I should say!

 

[NewUser293223]

I remember this post and thanks for digging it up again. The idea of Selanne being better is like you said, created in hindsight. Back in the days when they were playing Kariya was largely considered as slightly better/more important player. I think it was at the end of 97-98 season when the general opinion started to shift from Kariya > Selanne to Kariya = Selanne.

In hindsight, we (fans and media) probably were bit too high on Kariya and bit too low on Selanne as it seems that they're superbly comparable players. But back in the days it was very common to consider Kariya as the better player.

That's very much the thing. If we stop being too polite, Paul was overrated. And he was overrated not for something that he did, but rather for something Canadian media and Canadian fans projected he would do. It was not the first time this happened. And it was not the first time the Canadian horse failed to deliver.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Is Dr. Phil a generational TV host??

Naw, media pumps him as generational ala Toews but he's just a solid franchise TV host

 

[bathdog]

Lindros and Bure both got in alone. Why wouldn't Kariya? Kariya was better than both, and more complete than the latter two. Kariya got a weak Ducks team a game away from winning the Cup. Giguere too helped out, but still Kariya had the amazing game 6 winning goal, after a massive concussion.

I really like Kariya, he was very skilled, but no, he was not better than Lindros.

 

[Plural]

I really like Kariya, he was very skilled, but no, he was not better than Lindros.

Yeah. I think he's good comparable to Bure in terms of skill and career value.

 

[TheStroker]

Hey OP, you forgot to mention that Kariya also said him and Selanna are brothers, even in the next life.

Does this mean that one of their parents had an affair with the other's parent? Or maybe 'in the next life' refers to some crazy suicide pact they have going on?

Please make another thread so we can discuss this very important topic. I'll only go in the thread if you make it.

 

[KingBran]

Plot twist: Kariya is actually in the HOF because he refused to finish his career with the immoral total of 674 goals

omfg! Haha!

 

[Atoyot]

He also thanked Steve Rucchin.

Does that make him Alfred?

Or, more likely, is this whole thread a waste of time?

 

[Oddbob]

I want to know, when will Dino Ciccarelli finally admit, that he only scored over 600 goals becuase he tipped in most of those shots!

 

[ProspectsFanatic]

Why can't we downvote?