Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part VIII: Eliitti! Mod Warning Post #571

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DashingDane

Paul Maurice <3
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I think the article is being blown way out of proportion. I work in media and know exactly how they decide which content to write. In this case they know any Laine article will get clicks and if it's controversial it will likely get more. I highly doubt Laine went to the press and mentioned he needs more toi. They asked him and he answered (in a very good way imo). There are only three forwards on the Jets that wouldn't say they want more toi if asked and frankly I'd be disappointed if Laine didn't want more ice time....
 

StiffSquid

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Nov 17, 2016
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Certainly there have been multiple games where he has been the better player on this season. Mostly those when Wheeler was not at his best. Overall and usually Wheeler has been better, no doubt, but that is not something that has been truth every game.

As Laine is a LW, Wheeler is not the only one he could replace in the 1st line. And certainly in real results he has been better than Connor, Ehlers and even Perreault, though Perreault has been injured and in the dog house himself so I guess Perreault has been the best Jet in P/60.
I agree about switching Laine back to LW , and I definitely agree about the fact that there are players in this team that have been treated a lot worse than Laine. Maurice has always been a little bit eccentric with his ice time distribution.

I remember when they brought Oskar Osala up from the minors , to take a look at him , when Maurice was coaching the canes. Well , Osala played 4 minutes that night and was sent straight back to AHL. All they could say about Osala was well he gave a good interview LOL
 
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Halberdier

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I love Perreault a lot and agree that he really should have more minutes. Also I would love to see him as a line mate for Laine, as I think they match pretty well together. In addition to ELL, also Perreault has been misutilized.

Still I'd say it's a bit stretch to say Perreault would be similarly talented player as Laine. On his best ever NHL season (last season) he made 45 points in 65 games. Which is great, but not even remotely comparable to what Laine had, being 10 years younger.

This season the "4th line Jesus" has been almost PPG, which is really awesome, but that small sample size and blah blah.

As a players Laine and Perreault seem to be kind of opposite in some ways: Laine is big, Perreault is small, Laine is calm and maybe even too passive with forecheck, Perreault is restless and maybe even too aggressive with forecheck, Perreault is much more agile, while Laine is not so much. That's one reason why I think they match well together.
 

StiffSquid

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Yes, Laine being unhappy is an interpretation but it's directly derived from "Yes of course I would like more icetime". It's pretty clear to me he is unhappy with the amount because as he says he would like more. You might read that as happy.

Like expecting two scoops of ice cream but getting one. I mean...i like the one I have but I paid for two and nobody has explained why I only got one.
Well laine is not buying ice cream. He's on the payroll of Winnipeg Jets. If the Jets want to play him 2 Minutes per night they can do that.
 
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Laineux

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I think the article is being blown way out of proportion. I work in media and know exactly how they decide which content to write. In this case they know any Laine article will get clicks and if it's controversial it will likely get more. I highly doubt Laine went to the press and mentioned he needs more toi. They asked him and he answered (in a very good way imo). There are only three forwards on the Jets that wouldn't say they want more toi if asked and frankly I'd be disappointed if Laine didn't want more ice time....
This! I get the feeling that they probably asked directly if he wants to play more. Of course they're going to leave what their guestion was out of the article...
 

Psych0dad

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For me the likely hood is that if Laine played with Scheif that we would have similar results. In games that we won, some of them we would have won by more. We likely score more goals. I also think we probably give up more as well.
It's possible that this results in fewer points in the standings.

I'm cheering for my team who is winning, not obsessing over individual player statistics.

So why do you think we would leak more goals? What is the basis of that assessment?

I understand that is your opinion, but do you fully understand why you have that opinion?

I mean...ESL and PSL both had better defensive numbers than CSW. Why would we start leaking more? You mean 2nd line could be defensively worse if it was CLW? It is a possibility. But we would have to try to know.
 

Psych0dad

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This! I get the feeling that they probably asked directly if he wants to play more. Of course they're going to leave what their guestion was out of the article...

Yes it's not like he called a press conference to whine. He was asked a direct question and answered it in his usual honesty. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

Psych0dad

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Well laine is not buying ice cream. He's on the payroll of Winnipeg Jets. If the Jets want to play him 2 Minutes per night they can do that.

He paid for 1st line duty with 36 goals and 64 pts as an 18 year old rookie.

Of course the ice cream vendor can tell me that I only get 1 for the usual price of two, but he must know my business will go elsewhere.
 

Duke749

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So why do you think we would leak more goals? What is the basis of that assessment?

I understand that is your opinion, but do you fully understand why you have that opinion?

I mean...ESL and PSL both had better defensive numbers than CSW. Why would we start leaking more? You mean 2nd line could be defensively worse if it was CLW? It is a possibility. But we would have to try to know.

Dude their defensive zone play has been discussed ten fold lately. It’s your own fault if you want to keep ignoring it. People shouldn’t have to keep repeating the same stuff to you because you’re in denial.
 

StiffSquid

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He paid for 1st line duty with 36 goals and 64 pts as an 18 year old rookie.

Of course the ice cream vendor can tell me that I only get 1 for the usual price of two, but he must know my business will go elsewhere.
I think the Jets are holding all the cards at this point. What is Laine going to do? Temper tantrum all the way up until he's 26 or whenever he's ufa? Good luck with that career. Fortunately I don't think he shares your view on things. He's a patient kid and he knows that he will get his chance.
 

Ukkosenjumala

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Matthews plays with Hyman (worse than Little) and Nylander (who is basically their Ehlers), only a little over 17 mins a game with no PP1 time and is absolutely killing it.

By saying that Laine needs more ice time and better linemates than Matthews the Laine fanboys here are basically admitting Matthews >>>> Laine AINEC.

Not being badly outshot in the last dozen or so games and not constantly turning the puck over in your own zone would be a good start towards getting more icetime. That line (and Laine is a huge part of it) has been a defensive liability lately. I am not gonna lie, in the last few minutes of the Tampa game I would myself wishing that the coach would doubleshift the Copp-Lowry-Tanev line instead of icing the 2nd line

Matthews has had lines that didn't work for him also, difference is Babcock changes them. Don't know what this has to do with Laine tho.

Also I think we found the jets version of "The shift", anyone who claims Laine is not under the most intense scrutiny on the roster only needs to look at the amount of discussion that shift gets. Sure it was bad but you still gotta remember that it was you know....one shift and Laine had to get the puck back first to turn it over again, plus it didn't even lead to a goal against.

Don't know where you can see exactly the last 12 games but if we go by the season 5v5, Wheeler and Connor are both at the bottom of the barrel in team Rel CF% and CF% and all the top forwards like Scheifele, Wheeler turn the puck over at a very similiar rate so maybe we need to triple shift Copp Lowry Tanev? Laine's statistics on all those are pretty decent, as is his expected goals, GF% and rel GF% when compared to the rest of the team.

Also this has to be reiterated, much talk about Laine's turnovers even tho the amount he has is normal for players who play top 6 or top defensive minutes but can someone tell me how many of Laine's turnovers result in goals? It seems like a distinction has to be made here, Laine losing the puck at the neutral zone on some nothing-play has less implications than Buff slipping on a banana at the blueline on the PP and causing a breakaway for example.
 
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Zhamnov5GoalGame

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Jan 14, 2012
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So why do you think we would leak more goals? What is the basis of that assessment?

I understand that is your opinion, but do you fully understand why you have that opinion?

I mean...ESL and PSL both had better defensive numbers than CSW. Why would we start leaking more? You mean 2nd line could be defensively worse if it was CLW? It is a possibility. But we would have to try to know.

Either line could give up more goals.
Maurice's job was to win games this year.
If playing Laine on the first line right now gave them a better chance of winning he would do it.

Laine's PP use is WAY up and he is producing there.
Wheeler and Scheifele support each other deep in the zone which is where they generate a lot of their offense from. Neither Ehlers or Laine are strong in that area of the game.

My only complaint is ice time. 2nd line should have more.
Last 2 games Mo has started like this
Scheif
Lowry
Scheif
Little
Hendricks
Scheif

etc...

Games where we are down multiple goals I would also unleash a Scheif / Laine line. But I'm not the coach and the coach has a very good winning record and ELL has played better over the last 15 games then the average of the previous games. Every night is a chance for the line to break out.
 

Psych0dad

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Either line could give up more goals.
Maurice's job was to win games this year.
If playing Laine on the first line right now gave them a better chance of winning he would do it.

Laine's PP use is WAY up and he is producing there.
Wheeler and Scheifele support each other deep in the zone which is where they generate a lot of their offense from. Neither Ehlers or Laine are strong in that area of the game.

My only complaint is ice time. 2nd line should have more.
Last 2 games Mo has started like this
Scheif
Lowry
Scheif
Little
Hendricks
Scheif

etc...

Games where we are down multiple goals I would also unleash a Scheif / Laine line. But I'm not the coach and the coach has a very good winning record and ELL has played better over the last 15 games then the average of the previous games. Every night is a chance for the line to break out.

Either line could, but there is no reason to suggest ESL would because we have data from last season and they were better than current CSW.

Just the fear of what COULD go wrong shouldn't stop progress. It's a very calculated risk because past data shows us it works better than what we are getting from current 1st. Both offensively and defensively. There is always the possibility it doesn't work anymore but there is no rational reason to believe they wouldn't. They are all a year older and 2 of them are in the best defensive line the Jets have.

I understand concern for second line but the gains should majorly outweigh the losses
 

Zhamnov5GoalGame

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Either line could, but there is no reason to suggest ESL would because we have data from last season and they were better than current CSW.

Just the fear of what COULD go wrong shouldn't stop progress. It's a very calculated risk because past data shows us it works better than what we are getting from current 1st. Both offensively and defensively. There is always the possibility it doesn't work anymore but there is no rational reason to believe they wouldn't. They are all a year older and 2 of them are in the best defensive line the Jets have.

I understand concern for second line but the gains should majorly outweigh the losses

I just know the team was not winning like this last year.
That is the most important stat to me.
I'm 100% totally fine with playing Scheif with Laine.

The difference is that I'm not going to freak out that they don't play together.
I make the odd pissy comment to my TV but it doesn't escalate to hours of arguing online about it.

Laine has 4 goals and 5 assists in his last 6 games.
Your anger seems more like Laine was on a 6 game pointless drought.
 
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Duke749

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Answer me this, if one has explained an opinion multiple times throughout this thread and others, why should they then have to repeat the same answers to someone else when that someone else has been there for all opinions?
 

Psych0dad

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I just know the team was not winning like this last year.
That is the most important stat to me.
I'm 100% totally fine with playing Scheif with Laine.

The difference is that I'm not going to freak out that they don't play together.
I make the odd pissy comment to my TV but it doesn't escalate to hours of arguing online about it.

Laine has 4 goals and 5 assists in his last 6 games.
Your anger seems more like Laine was on a 6 game pointless drought.

Team winning more now than last year is not a result of handcuffing Laine and Ehlers and forming a worse 1st line than they were. To equate the winning to that is nothing short of ridiculous.

Team is winning more for many reasons.

Much improved goaltending and healthy defensive core. Almost all key players are very young so they develop at a fast pace, you are reaping rewards of that.

They are winning this much despite the coach throwing a wrench in there.

You should be able to separate the good changes from the bad changes, see more detail rather than just thinking that everything positive is a result of making Laine less capable of using his best tools.
 

Psych0dad

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Answer me this, if one has explained an opinion multiple times throughout this thread and others, why should they then have to repeat the same answers to someone else when that someone else has been there for all opinions?

You don't have to explain anything. But if you keep stating that they wouldn't work, I will keep asking why until you have a rational argument for it.

And the only way for you to get a rational argument for it, is if they try it and it fails to be better than current situation. Previous data is against your assessment so you need new data to show that they should not play together. Everything we know so far suggests they should have Laine with Chef.

Maurice left a lot of PP goals on the bench last year by playing Laine on second unit. This season it's 5 on 5 production. You as a fan should not support it, but of course you are entitled to do so. I just don't see a lick of reason in supporting it and you're not helping giving me a reason.
 
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Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
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You don't have to explain anything. But if you keep stating that they wouldn't work, I will keep asking why until you have a rational argument for it.

And the only way for you to get a rational argument for it, is if they try it and it fails to be better than current situation. Previous data is against your assessment so you need new data to show that they should not play together. Everything we know so far suggests they should have Laine with Chef.

Maurice left a lot of PP goals on the bench last year by playing Laine on second unit. This season it's 5 on 5 production. You as a fan should not support it, but of course you are entitled to do so. I just don't see a lick of reason in supporting it and you're not helping giving me a reason.

That’s not even close to what was said originally. A poster stated they would likely score more but at the same time give up more. Is it that hard to understand?
 

DashingDane

Paul Maurice <3
Dec 16, 2014
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Matthews has had lines that didn't work for him also, difference is Babcock changes them. Don't know what this has to do with Laine tho.

Also I think we found the jets version of "The shift", anyone who claims Laine is not under the most intense scrutiny on the roster only needs to look at the amount of discussion that shift gets. Sure it was bad but you still gotta remember that it was you know....one shift and Laine had to get the puck back first to turn it over again, plus it didn't even lead to a goal against.

Don't know where you can see exactly the last 12 games but if we go by the season 5v5, Wheeler and Connor are both at the bottom of the barrel in team Rel CF% and CF% and all the top forwards like Scheifele, Wheeler turn the puck over at a very similiar rate so maybe we need to triple shift Copp Lowry Tanev? Laine's statistics on all those are pretty decent, as is his expected goals, GF% and rel GF% when compared to the rest of the team.

Also this has to be reiterated, much talk about Laine's turnovers even tho the amount he has is normal for players who play top 6 or top defensive minutes but can someone tell me how many of Laine's turnovers result in goals? It seems like a distinction has to be made here, Laine losing the puck at the neutral zone on some nothing-play has less implications than Buff slipping on a banana at the blueline on the PP and causing a breakaway for example.

I think the added HFJets Laine scrutiny is more a result of the added Finnish posters more than anything else. There isn't really any more/less scrutiny surrounding other Jets compared to before Laine joined the team. Because some of the new posters post quite a bit and have fairly strong and in some cases rigid opinions that also include other other Jets players I think some long time Jets fans act as a natural counter weight. I don't think any of those posters (and I can only speak for myself) do it because they think Laine makes more mistakes than others on the team but more so because the cause of Laine struggles tends to be placed on everyone but his shoulders.

Of course this is all speculation on my end... but it's also what I think is happening.
 

larmex99

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I've been watching hockey for 30 years and can't recall a #85 that was generational/franchise level and got this treatment.

If you are talking about Perreault, yes he should also play in 1st but doesn't match the criteria I set in my post.

And yes, both of those awfully misused guys are misused by the same incompetent buffoon
PLEASE Psycho don’t make us defend Coach Mo against the Finnish horde. There is no plot to defraud Partik of his rightful place in hockey lore. There are at least a dozen coaches in the league who would be harder on him than Maurice. Not one of them would be trying to do anything more than win more games and improve their players’ performances. Not one.
 

Psych0dad

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That’s not even close to what was said originally. A poster stated they would likely score more but at the same time give up more. Is it that hard to understand?

Yeah and I asked for a reason for that.

The reason you guys are offering is "just because".

It's not a good enough argument for me. Statistics say they played better defensively and offensively a year ago than current CSW.

I'm simply picking factual information over opinion.

Like if you said a meteor will destroy the earth tomorrow and I would check if anyone has seen it.
 

Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
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Yeah and I asked for a reason for that.

The reason you guys are offering is "just because".

It's not a good enough argument for me. Statistics say they played better defensively and offensively a year ago than current CSW.

I'm simply picking factual information over opinion.

Like if you said a meteor will destroy the earth tomorrow and I would check if anyone has seen it.

And round and round we go...
 

Psych0dad

Registered User
Sep 27, 2017
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PLEASE Psycho don’t make us defend Coach Mo against the Finnish horde. There is no plot to defraud Partik of his rightful place in hockey lore. There are at least a dozen coaches in the league who would be harder on him than Maurice. Not one of them would be trying to do anything more than win more games and improve their players’ performances. Not one.

It's up to everyone individually whether or not to defend Maurice.

I'll defend Maurice in anything that is rationally defensible. This isn't. I don't have emotional ties of long term fans, so I don't support Maurice out of any feeling of "he's our guy even with his flaws". I think he is an NHL coach and that comes with expectation of rationality. What he is doing is not rational. I can't but attack it.

And I completely dismiss all of these "under coach such and such he would be worse off" arguments. They are nothing but statements and I happen to disagree with them.
 
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