Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - MOD WARNING IN OP

[Ippenator]

From his comments regarding his summer training you kind of get the idea he thinks he doesn't need to skate during the summer... I hope he changes that. What worked before when he was playing in Europe might not work the same in the NHL. He has a lot of work to do...

It’s not really about doing what has worked for him in Europe at all. His development plan is made on the basis of what has worked well for Rasmus Ristolainen and Mikko Rantanen, whom have both developed physically extremely well during the years that they trained with Rautala. Ristolainen has amazing stamina and he is amongst the players that play top minutes in the whole NHL. Rantanen has also very good stamina and both of them have developed their first steps also considerably during the years that they have trained in Rautala’s group. Neither had substantial development in just two or three years though.

The point was last season to maximize the physical training with explosiveness to leg muscles and by running exercises for getting better stamina. He said it himself that the decision was exactly to get as quick as possible the physical training forwards, as he had a couple of off season setbacks from the previous years because of injuries. He will add skating based training at some point to his off season training for sure, but I’m pretty sure it will not happen even this off season yet. At least I will be surprised if that would happen already that soon.

 

[TannedBum]

The point was last season to maximize the physical training with explosiveness to leg muscles and by running exercises for getting better stamina.

But somehow he took a clear step backwards in those areas. Well at least he gained some protective overweight. That's something... I guess.

 

[Shaibu]

The fact is that he is too slow and fat now. I hope his trainer notices that and help him fix those flaws.

 

[Ippenator]

Oh, and Laine’s trainer Rautala said last season, that he was happy how Laine had developed so far, but that he is still miles behind of Ristolainen and Rantanen in physical training. He did say that Laine is very motivated and has good training attitude, and he seems to be also gifted for good results with hard physical training. But he said that he definitely has still a long way to go.

 

[Ippenator]

But somehow he took a clear step backwards in those areas. Well at least he gained some protective overweight. That's something... I guess.

He must be then becoming another Joel Armia? Oh wait, he scored already 44 goals and 70 points! So maybe not after all...

 

[grieves]

Here's the Forward aging curve in terms of shot generation and scoring chances, with the years SJS would be buying at $7M a piece highlighted in a cautionary orange:

Shamelessly borrowed from another thread. This might be useful for some to visualize where we are at. It's a better use of our time not to keep shouting how Laine should improve. There is every indication that that is going to happen. Of course we don't know what will happen but an educated guess is better than just guessing randomly whatever comes to mind.

At 19 he is already the best goal-scorer in the league. What happens at the peak? Food for thought .

 

[TannedBum]

He must be then becoming another Joel Armia? Oh wait, he scored already 44 goals and 70 points! So maybe not after all...

Yeah, imagine Laine with Armia's physics. That player could be somewhat useful 5v5. Don't get so mad about facts.

 

[Ippenator]

Yeah, imagine Laine with Armia's physics. That player could be somewhat useful 5v5. Don't get so mad about facts.

Sorry, but with Armia’s physics Laine would be practically what Armia is now. Armia is not a physical beast, just for your information. You must live in some kind of a dream world if you seriously think that he is that... He is very good with his stick in battles though, but not a physical presence by any means.

Yes, someone did obviously get angry here - the guy whom had to swallow the fact that Laine had as a physically raw 19 year old youngster much more goals than a 24 year old Armia had points, and over twice as many points as ”prime” Armia had. But I understand and sympathize you, as it must be really tough to be such a devoted Armia fan with such low return...

 

[behemolari]

View attachment 122335

Shamelessly borrowed from another thread. This might be useful for some to visualize where we are at. It's a better use of our time not to keep shouting how Laine should improve. There is every indication that that is going to happen. Of course we don't know what will happen but an educated guess is better than just guessing randomly whatever comes to mind.

At 19 he is already the best goal-scorer in the league. What happens at the peak? Food for thought .

Jets lose against picked US team

Pate tuu kotiin

 

[Maukkis]

It doesn’t really matter how someones play looks like, if they still get scored against almost as much as they score goals themselves. That is not the point of hockey. It’s not figure skating where the effort should be judged by how much it pleases the eye, but a game where the team that outscores it’s opponents clearly is the best team and the players that outscore their opponents clearly are the best players. Just look at 5 on 5 goal difference and you should realize that Scheifele and Wheeler are not really as good together as they seem to please your eye. On the other hand Laine, Scheifele, Perreault line has been the most efficient line for the Jets in outscoring the opponents during the last two seasons. And ESL was pretty close to PSL in outscoring efficiency. So there is crystal clear evidence that Laine and Scheifele are an extremely good fit already. The most important thing in hockey, which is OUTSCORING your opponents clearly, gives us crystal clear evidence on this.

Outscoring the opponents clearly should always be the goal for any offensive line. Anything else is practically meaningless unless your line is really supposed to be just a shutdown line.

And of course Scheifele and Wheeler will praise anyone whom would be playing with them in the same line. That’s just how it works in any team sport. Or would you expect for them to say that sure KC is a pretty good young talent, but we would still prefer to play with Laine? Even how much they would think like that, they would never ever say it aloud in public. And I’m not saying that KC isn’t a good player. But he is not an optimal player for the 1st line, if the Jets want to be clearly outscoring the opponents with that line. There is the statistical evidence on that. The stats don’t lie even close to as much as the eye lies, especially when defining player efficiency.

You have claimed the opposite in multiple occasions. Did it not fit the narrative this time?

One would think you should have concerns over Laine's non-existent cycle game and inability to win a puck battle, especially when you have claimed how you dismiss all stats that are thrown at you and seem to lean more towards watching the games. Surely you have seen that Laine has some pretty brutal flaws too, some of which should be kept far away from Scheifele and Wheeler's style of play.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Not worried about Laine. Most players are struggling to hold a full time NHL job at his age. He's going through the learning pains at such a young age. It's staggering to think what kind of athlete he will be at Wheeler's age.

Like...even if this was his final level he'd have a very good career.

 

[Howard Chuck]

If I had one criticism of Patty was his inability to get the puck out of our zone at the blue line...and inability to keep the puck in the opposition zone at their blue line.

If he can clean that issue up his game would look so much better in the playoffs IMO

I think this was the case early in the season, but IMO he was one of the better players at this later in the season. The entire first line was much worse at this all season.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Haven't ready any of this long thread...but my only complaint about Laine is his work around the boards, and cycling. He has almost no chance of keeping the puck.

Hopefully he will put in the work. A la Scheifele.

And hopefully we will give him the time to put in the work, a la Scheifele.

 

[Howard Chuck]

They don't need Laine on the 1st line -
I think the 1st, as is, will score a ton of goals next season without Laine.
Besides that, he's not quick enough to play with Wheels and Scheif and doesn't support type of game they play.

Unless this is simply an exercise to find a place to slot Laine where he can excel.
If he's as good as his paycheck will likely dictate, he should be able to make it work without playing with numbers 1 and 2.

I'd work on building a second line that supports Laine and his game rather than messing with the line that is already ripping it up and will likely be even more productive next season.

Totally agree. We shouldn't be trying to make Laine into something that he's not. He is a unique talent that we should be building a line around. I'm not exactly sure what the best option is, but I assume someone able to get the puck to him and someone very creative.

 

[Howard Chuck]

Brett Hull was a **** player. Brett Hull could score like no ones business. You win games by scoring goals. I have to sit at work and listen to people who never played hockey dump on laine because he doesn't skate fast. They won't care how fast he skates when he scores 50 plus next year

So true. People should realize what Laine is, what he has always been and then we have to use him accordingly. No player is going to be everything, but some players are absolutely gifted at some things.

 

[PhilJets]

44 goals 70+ points
Under 20

Enough said.
One of the best historically in goal scoring department as under 20.

Sign the kid already, he is happy to sign long term here.

Just put a clause.
No beard anymore even during playoff .

 

[Ippenator]

You have claimed the opposite in multiple occasions. Did it not fit the narrative this time?

One would think you should have concerns over Laine's non-existent cycle game and inability to win a puck battle, especially when you have claimed how you dismiss all stats that are thrown at you and seem to lean more towards watching the games. Surely you have seen that Laine has some pretty brutal flaws too, some of which should be kept far away from Scheifele and Wheeler's style of play.

I have said many, many times that the only really meaningful stats are the end results like goals, assists, wins, losses and 5 on 5 goal difference. All other stats tell only something vaguely, and you can always try to twist and turn them into whatever, but in the end only the stats that I mentioned above are really meaningful for defining if someone is really playing well and helping his team win consistently with his performance.

And too many people are just looking at practically meaningless things like takeaways (almost meaningless compared to good positional play, as takeaways occur very rarely, but good positional play is used loads of times per player in a game for preventing the opponents from scoring) or just how fast or busy someone looks on the ice when they are skating. When people judge the class of players on that basis, I can say right away, that in those cases it’s the best to look at the stats that the end results tell us and forget what your eyes are lying to you.

 

[Calendal]

I have said many, many times that the only really meaningful stats are the end results like goals, assists, wins, losses and 5 on 5 goal difference. All other stats tell only something vaguely, and you can always try to twist and turn them into whatever, but in the end only the stats that I mentioned above are really meaningful for defining if someone is really playing well and helping his team win consistently with his performance.

And too many people are just looking at practically meaningless things like takeaways (almost meaningless compared to good positional play, as takeaways occur very rarely, but good positional play is used loads of times per player in a game for preventing the opponents from scoring) or just how fast or busy someone looks on the ice when they are skating. When people judge the class of players on that basis, I can say right away, that in those cases it’s the best to look at the stats that the end results tell us and forget what your eyes are lying to you.

I would add penalties drawn and taken. For ’shutdown’ lines there’s a few other useful qualities (ability to tire out opponents and get OZ faceoffs).

 

[Maukkis]

I have said many, many times that the only really meaningful stats are the end results like goals, assists, wins, losses and 5 on 5 goal difference. All other stats tell only something vaguely, and you can always try to twist and turn them into whatever, but in the end only the stats that I mentioned above are really meaningful for defining if someone is really playing well and helping his team win consistently with his performance.

And too many people are just looking at practically meaningless things like takeaways (almost meaningless compared to good positional play, as takeaways occur very rarely, but good positional play is used loads of times per player in a game for preventing the opponents from scoring) or just how fast or busy someone looks on the ice when they are skating. When people judge the class of players on that basis, I can say right away, that in those cases it’s the best to look at the stats that the end results tell us and forget what your eyes are lying to you.

You could have just said 'I see what I want to see.' You are arbitrarily stating what is and what is not meaningless without proving any reasoning, which tells me that I should not believe anything you just said.

What you don't get is that if somebody uses stats in the wrong way, that's not a reason to discredit the statistics; the problem there is about the one wrongly using the stats to prove their point. For instance, you telling me that using wins and losses to determine whether someone has played well is a woefully bad way of evaluating players.

 

[Lowered Expectations]

Oh the pain and suffering for some when 29 finally is joined to same line with 55. Fat and slow! Cannot cycle. Keep him away from 55! Meanwhile with mainly Little and Copp centering him this guy is the best goal scorer in team. I see the summer will be long bashing of Laine and Rautala. It was pleasantly silent here when 29 was carrying the team before that unfortunate shot on his leg. Apparently 44 goals was not enough to lay off the bashing, and I doubt nothing will be. Well, no-one is liked by everyone.
My only hope is we will never see ELL again. Laine and Ehlers seemed to do ok with Copp. That should answer the question ”can Laine produce without elite center?”

 

[Ippenator]

You could have just said 'I see what I want to see.' You are arbitrarily stating what is and what is not meaningless without proving any reasoning, which tells me that I should not believe anything you just said.

What you don't get is that if somebody uses stats in the wrong way, that's not a reason to discredit the statistics; the problem there is about the one wrongly using the stats to prove their point. For instance, you telling me that using wins and losses to determine whether someone has played well is a woefully bad way of evaluating players.

I meant wins and losses still as the meaningful goalie stat (which should be in fact obvious without explaining) and of course it’s a very good stat for defining how good the team is. It can also define what kind of roster works and which players in general work for the team well. Not that much of an individualistic stat, unless we are talking about goalies.

 

[Maukkis]

I meant wins and losses still as the meaningful goalie stat (which should be in fact obvious without explaining) and of course it’s a very good stat for defining how good the team is. It can also define what kind of roster works and which players in general work for the team well. Not that much of an individualistic stat, unless we are talking about goalies.

What a tire fire of a post.

You got from Laine to measuring goaltending. Surely it can't be that hard to construct an argument?

 

[Daximus]

Totally agree. We shouldn't be trying to make Laine into something that he's not. He is a unique talent that we should be building a line around. I'm not exactly sure what the best option is, but I assume someone able to get the puck to him and someone very creative.

He needs his Backstrom. He'll be unstoppable then. I'd prefer to keep Scheifs with Wheeler as Wheeler is Scheif's Backstrom. Scheif is 100% capable of scoring 35-40 over a full season with Wheels.

 

[Ippenator]

What a tire fire of a post.

You got from Laine to measuring goaltending. Surely it can't be that hard to construct an argument?

I was talking about the meaningful stats, not just Laine. You begged me to talk about it, you know. A pity that you tried to put words to my mouth, but the good thing is that I got to at least correct the human error.

 

[Maukkis]

I was talking about the meaningful stats, not just Laine. You begged me to talk about it, you know. A pity that you tried to put words to my mouth, but the good thing is that I got to at least correct the human error.

Meaningful stats based on what? Because you say so? Cool.