GDT: Patrik Elias Night! - Devils vs. Islanders - 6:00PM MSG+

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Bleedred

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I mean, come on dude, pour some cold water on your face.

Does anybody really think if Cory wasn't injured/ill/whatever for the better part of the last 2 months, that we'd be on a 25 game losing streak, or however many games it's been since he last collected a win?

Gimme a break, there's no way anybody believes that.
 

Bleedred

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Winning is everything. And it's the only thing that matters. I could less if they win 20 to 19 or 1 to 0...winning and winning often is all that matters...you keep the style points, I just want the 2 points for the win.
You're right, winning is everything, but just because the goalie got credited with a win doesn't mean that he's the one that's the most important factor and the most responsible in getting it.

You're gonna tell me Kinkaid has done nearly as much to get these wins as Taylor Hall, who gets credited with exactly ZERO of these wins? Really?
 

Bleedred

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Hmmm....why hasn't Cory won 30 games on a rebuilding team? I'm gonna have to think long and hard about that one.
Does anybody really think if Cory wasn't healthy for this entire year (or most of it) that he wouldn't have won 30 games? If we wind up winning 42-45 games, does anyone really think that Cory wouldn't have won 30 of them if he started 65-67 games, which is what he was on pace to start before he first got injured/ill?

And ironically, as I keep saying, this wouldn't have even been his best season in his career, yet he probably still would have gotten 30 wins, provided we win 42-45 games this year and he started 65-67 of them.

He won 27 games in 58 starts in 15-16, before he got injured in the first week of March and missed 3 or 4 weeks. If he hadn't missed 4 weeks, you think he wouldn't have gotten 30 wins that year? And that wouldn't have even been a playoff year, regardless of all that.
 

JimEIV

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Hmmm....why hasn't Cory won 30 games on a rebuilding team? I'm gonna have to think long and hard about that one.
I think the larger question is why is his winning% worse than Kinkaid this season or Marty from years ago... the only two times in last 5 years any other goalie played significant time for this team.
 

MadDevil

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I think the larger question is why is his winning% worse than Kinkaid this season or Marty from years ago... the only two times in last 5 years any other goalie played significant time for this team.

The larger question is why do you keep bringing up shit like this when you know it just ends up in the same tired arguments?
 

Bleedred

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The real answer is goalies are that irrelevant.
More than ever, I think you're mostly right. It's certainly looking like that right now.

I don't even think that there's arguably even 10 top goalies in the league anymore. There's probably about 7-8, then there's like 15-20 that are mostly the same, then there's probably less than 5 that are really bad, as far as starters go. There's also about 3-4 teams that don't even really have a starter anymore. Like Vancouver, Philadelphia may or may not be one of these.

And Price and Holtby are in the top 5 best goalies, yet both are having really awful seasons. Holtby has the wins (Price does not) this year, but I don't think they're because of him....
 

JimEIV

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The larger question is why do you keep bringing up **** like this when you know it just ends up in the same tired arguments?
As Devils fan you don't think it is at least somewhat interesting that Kinkaid has 14 wins in 25 games and Cory has 17 wins in 35 games?
 

NJDevs26

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The larger question is why do you keep bringing up **** like this when you know it just ends up in the same tired arguments?

I think you know the answer to that one too.

Let's just put it like this, if KK had more games like last night in the rest of the season he wouldn't have been bagged on all year. And the Cory of the last two years really isn't comparable to the Cory that was a top puckstopper before that. He's basically been average at best this year, KK below average. It just so happens the W/L record doesn't reflect their level of play because newsflash you need more than an average goalie to win.
 
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JimEIV

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More than ever, I think you're mostly right. It's certainly looking like that right now.

I don't even think that there's arguably even 10 top goalies in the league anymore. There's probably about 7-8, then there's like 15-20 that are mostly the same, then there's probably less than 5 that are really bad, as far as starters go. There's also about 3-4 teams that don't even really have a starter anymore. Like Vancouver, Philadelphia may or may not be one of these.

The difference between good and mediocre is so small. I honestly believe the goalie position has gotten so good in the last 15 years that it's really hard to distinguish the majority of them.
 

MadDevil

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As Devils fan you don't think it is at least somewhat interesting that Kinkaid has 14 wins in 25 games and Cory has 17 wins in 35 games?

No, because a multitude of factors go into those records. I don't think Kinkaid has some magical winning aura around him that's resulted in a better win percentage.
 

Bleedred

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I think you know the answer to that one too.

Let's just put it like this, if KK had more games like last night in the rest of the season he wouldn't have been bagged on all year. And the Cory of the last two years really isn't comparable to the Cory that was a top puckstopper before that. He's basically been average at best this year, KK below average. It just so happens the W/L record doesn't reflect their level of play because newsflash you need more than a goalie to win.
I've noticed this even last year when Kinkaid was good. He looks better after he sits for 4-7 days than when he's constantly playing. Even last year, he'd have a great game after coming off the bench after a week, then we'd play him the next game and he's getting destroyed.

Kinkaid had a good season last year, probably the best of his career, which is why I backed bringing him back and re-signing him, yet he had 5 more regulation losses than wins. Does that mean that he's better this year and that he was AWFUL last year?

People put way too much into goalie wins anymore.

If you're gonna give a seminar on why Marty was a legendary goalie, are you gonna spend 75% of that session talking about WINS and beating that word into everyone's heads? Then maybe a few other minutes talking about his shutouts and cups? Is that really what you want to be the convincing factor on why Marty is going into the HOF later this year, because of all his wins? There's seasons that Lundqvist had a better winning percentage than Marty (some of that is probably shootout aided, which has been around his entire career and less than half of Marty's), so is Lundqvist also on par with Marty because of that? I already gave the 07-08 Nabokov comparison.

Because if I was giving the seminar, I would spend very little time talking about his win totals and how many wins he had. If I was gonna delve into his wins, I would spend more time talking about individual games that I felt that he won by himself, or the wins that personally showcased him, more than the fact that he won almost 700 games.
 

Bleedred

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The difference between good and mediocre is so small. I honestly believe the goalie position has gotten so good in the last 15 years that it's really hard to distinguish the majority of them.
I absolutely don't disagree with that. Most of the bad goalies of the last several years (I'm talking starters here) have been either weeded out of the league or relegated to backups. Outside of Cam Ward, because the Canes picked up yet another mediocre goalie who had never been a starter and he's fallen flat on his face. Lehtonen was relegated to backup (he's done well in that role this year), a few others have disappeared. Jimmy Howard had a good season last year, Mrazek had a bad one and that gave Howard back his starting job and he's back to being mediocre again this year, like the last 3 years before last season.

And the backups that are bad, they usually wash out of the league after not very long and if Kinkaid doesn't put together some more games like last night for most of the games he plays for the remainder of this season, he could be the next one out.

All in all, I don't see Kinkaid as better than Schneider, not even close. That's not even because Schneider is good, as much as Kinkaid is penny a dozen.
 

JimEIV

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I absolutely don't disagree with that. Most of the bad goalies of the last several years (I'm talking starters here) have been either weeded out of the league or relegated to backups. Outside of Cam Ward, because the Canes picked up yet another mediocre goalie who had never been a starter and he's fallen flat on his face. Lehtonen was relegated to backup (he's done well in that role this year), a few others have disappeared. Jimmy Howard had a good season last year, Mrazek had a bad one and that gave Howard back his starting job and he's back to being mediocre again this year, like the last 3 years before last season.

And the backups that are bad, they usually wash out of the league after not very long and if Kinkaid doesn't put together some more games like last night for most of the games he plays for the remainder of this season, he could be the next one out.

All in all, I don't see Kinkaid as better than Schneider, not even close.
I don't think anyone would claim Kinkaid is better than Schnieder...

But I do have my doubts about winning with him.
 

NJDevs26

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Because if I was giving the seminar, I would spend very little time talking about his win totals and how many wins he had. If I was gonna delve into his wins, I would spend more time talking about individual games that I felt that he won by himself, or the wins that personally showcased him, more than the fact that he won almost 700 games.

Well the sheer NUMBER of wins speaks to durability which Marty was second to none. His splits were also good, it's not a case where Marty had a high career GAA and save percentage. His career GAA is 10th all-time and half the guys in front of him were real real old timers. His career save percentage is like 31st all time but would likely be a bit higher if not for his last few years. But even that rank's nothing to sneeze at.

You'd also talk about the playoff success probably before anything else - including the 113 wins but also including the 2.02 lifetime GAA in the playoffs. It's not as if Marty had a career of defying the splits. He only really defied the splits in 2013-14. Some of his prime years his save percentage was low but his GAA was excellent.
 

Emperoreddy

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And his save percentage took a hit thanks to our shot counter.

All the stats back Marty's career up. Not just the wins. We never won in spite of Marty. We definitely won in spite of Keith this year

Plus the shutout record was always more impressive to me
 

Bleedred

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Well the sheer NUMBER of wins speaks to durability which Marty was second to none. His splits were also good, it's not a case where Marty had a high career GAA and save percentage. His career GAA is 10th all-time and half the guys in front of him were real real old timers. His career save percentage is like 31st all time but would likely be a bit higher if not for his last few years. But even that rank's nothing to sneeze at.

You'd also talk about the playoff success probably before anything else - including the 113 wins but also including the 2.02 lifetime GAA in the playoffs. It's not as if Marty had a career of defying the splits. He only really defied the splits in 2013-14. Some of his prime years his save percentage was low but his GAA was excellent.
I think as far as all time goes, Marty is gonna have a lower save percentage than a lot of these guys today, due to them being higher today and the different era’s. Even Patrick Roy has a low career save percentage by current standards. It’s lower than Marty’s. Hasek is the only guy from that era with a career save percentage that’s on par with the current guys in today’s game.

There were years in the early 00’s where Marty having a .906 save percentage was just average or just above average, due to the league average being quite a bit lower than it is now.

Funny thing is that his .911% in 05-06 was better than his .917% in 04-05, due to league average in 05-06 being .901%. In 03-04 the league average was .911%.
 

Call Me Al

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The shot counter definitely screwed Marty, every goal counted obviously but not every save. Ridiculous that the standards aren’t consistent but for him gaa is more representative for comparisons sake
 

njdevils1982

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The shot counter definitely screwed Marty, every goal counted obviously but not every save. Ridiculous that the standards aren’t consistent but for him gaa is more representative for comparisons sake

with all stats one should take into account the era …. a 90's CAA shot count is not the same as a Larsson oiler game hit count now

overall averages should make right but………a 20 hit game is a joke


and i follow nhl Dman hits.


cause thats what D should do …
 
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JimEIV

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No, because a multitude of factors go into those records. I don't think Kinkaid has some magical winning aura around him that's resulted in a better win percentage.
Right...and Cory was the exclusive starter when the team was playing its best for the first two months of the season.

There is something not right about his winning percentage. He has really never out performed his backup in winning percentage. Look at his time here.

This year: 17 wins in 35 gamed .485%
Kinkaid 14 in 25 .56%

Last year 20 in 59 .34%
Kinkaid 8 in 23 .348%

2016 27 in 56 .465%
Kinkaid 9 in 20 .45%

2015 26 in 68 .38%
Kinkaid 6 in 13 .46%

2014 Brodeur 19 in 39 .49%
Schneider 16 in 43 .37%

I'm sure that you can sight matchups or look further into difficult starts...but on the surface Cory seems to win as much as any goalie we've used.
 

BenedictGomez

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I'm sure that you can sight matchups or look further into difficult starts..

That would likely resolve a good chunk of it.

The backup is often given the crappier teams, as well as the 3 in 4 games, and/or 2nd or back-to-backs. Strategic use to put them in a better chance for success.
 

Nubmer6

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BTW, anyone go to the Elias game and NOT get a mini-banner? Their web site said they'd be given to the first 9k fans, but I feel like it would have sucked if everyone didn't get one.
 
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