Parise for Pouliot, Jacques

[MrMastodonFarm*]

But Gionta, Rechi, Fluery and Tucker can?

Re-evaluate that............ they weren't good enough.

Please don't tell me what to re-evaluate, I actually know what I am talking about here, you do not.

Micki Dupont is a defencemen, he didn't make it because of his size. Seen him play ever? Care to comment any furthur on why he didn't make it?

Didn't think so, you can't.

 

[JimEIV]

When I see Jiri Hulder get smacked in AHL game then stop going into the corners and only play a perimeter game I know he wont make it......And that has nothing to do with his height.

I see Gionta get completely leveled along the boards by Keith Primeau and 2 seconds later he is in front of the net getting crossed checked in the back of the neck by Chris Therien You know he will make it.

 

[JimEIV]

Please don't tell me what to re-evaluate, I actually know what I am talking about here, you do not.

Micki Dupont is a defencemen, he didn't make it because of his size. Seen him play ever? Care to comment any furthur on why he didn't make it?

Didn't think so, you can't.

You have no facts just opinion and conjecture. I on the other hand have backed my opinion. Re-evaluate

 

[LaLaLaprise]

But Gionta, Rechi, Fluery and Tucker can?

Re-evaluate that............ they weren't good enough.

Of cource you are going to name the guys that made it. But there are also a hell of a lot more that dont. The guys who make it get the headlines and the guys that cant overcome their size fall into obscurity.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

You have no facts just opinion and conjecture. I on the other hand have backed my opinion. Re-evaluate

You havent backed anything. You named the smaller players in the NHL.

I could make an arrguemtn sayingf 5'07 goalies can make the NHL because Irbe, Richter and Vernon made it.

There are 2 sides to the argument. Re-Evaluate.

 

[Kestrel]

exception to the rule ???

I just went ahead and name 45 players + Sakic + Oates + Yzerman + Domi + Tucker Thats and even 50!

That will fill 2 teams entire roster and if I look harder, I garuntee I can find AT LEAST another 30 or so players!!! Like

Doug Weight Height 5.11 -- Weight 200
Shawn McEachern Height 5.11 -- Weight 195
Stanislav Chistov Height 5.10 -- Weight 195
Tyler Arnason Height 5.11 -- Weight 208
Robert Reichel Height 5.10 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L
Calle Johansson Height 5.11 -- Weight 200
Lyle Odelein Height 5.11 -- Weight 210
Alexei Morozov Height 6.00 -- Weight 179
Brian Holzinger Height 5.11 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R
Martin Straka Height 5.10 -- Weight 174 -- Shoots L

Thats 60.....And

Marc Bergevin Height 6.00 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L
Wes Walz Height 5.10 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots R
Kip Miller Height 5.10 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots L
Jason Krog Height 5.11 -- Weight 191 -- Shoots R
Mike Sillinger Height 5.10 -- Weight 200
Mike Danton Height 5.09 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R
P.J. Stock Height 5.11 -- Weight 183 -- Shoots L
Mathieu Schneider Height 5.11 -- Weight 187 -- Shoots L
Andreas Dackell Height 5.10 -- Weight 191
Brian Gionta Height 5.07 -- Weight 160 -- Shoots R

Thats 70 and notice I didn't even get to goalies!


You might want to go back to the drawing board on the "exception to the rule" theory.

The number of players you're quoting isn't really all that impressive.

Lyle Odelein, 5'11" 210 lbs - I don't consider him small just because he's an inch or two below league average, Lyle's still a big boy.

Doug Weight, Calle Johansson, Mike Sillinger, Tyler Arnason, all 200 lbs plus.

A guy's not small because he's under league average in height or weight. I'm not saying you're wrong, but narrow your list to anyone who's under 185 -190 lbs... and anyone under 5'10" unless they're particularly skinny - this isn't basketball - 2 or 3 inches isn't going to make THAT big a difference in physical play if you've still got the bulk and strength to throw behind it. Given the width and breadth of your examples - they hold very little credibility, so you may want to narrow them down to players who are much more obviously "undersized".

I'm not saying small players don't have a place in the NHL - if they can hack it, great. I DO think small teams have problems though. A small guy on a line with 2 average to large guys isn't all that big a handicap - if you put Comrie, Straka, and St Louis on a line against Lindros, Laraque, and Bertuzzi (sorry, I didn't spend any time putting together equivalently skilled lines, just contrasting sizes - but you're intelligent enough to get the point) - Comrie, Straka, and St Louis are going to wear out pretty freaking quick.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

You have no facts just opinion and conjecture. I on the other hand have backed my opinion. Re-evaluate

What are you talking about?

You just backed up the fact that some small players can make the NHL. Nothing you said was anyhting new, yes, some small players can overcome their size to make it. Whoop-de-freakin-do.

I will re-evaluate something though, re-evaluate my thoughts that you actually watch hockey and follow the NHL.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

I can't beleive JimEIV is using players that are 5'10-6'0 to counter his arguement. Since when is 5'10, 5'11 small? That is just below NHL average, that is not small.

We are talking about the tiny ones, the midgets. Your arguement has no legs to stand on.

 

[JimEIV]

You havent backed anything. You named the smaller players in the NHL.

I could make an arrguemtn sayingf 5'07 goalies can make the NHL because Irbe, Richter and Vernon made it.

There are 2 sides to the argument. Re-Evaluate.

2 sides? I named about 75 current NHLer 6.0 or under by my guessitmation that is about 10% of the NHL. That is not an "exception"

for every 5'10 guy that doesn't make it how many 6'2 215 guys don't make it either? That is a silly arguement

A guy 5'9 180 who can't stop a 6'3 forward doesn't deserve to be in the NHL.

Why can Brian Rafalski do though? How does Calle Johansson get it done? How can Darius Kasparaitis be such a viscous hitter at 5.11 -- Weight 209 ????

Height does not = Strength. And strength can be developed.

Height and weight does not = toughness either that is something you are just born with.

 

[JimEIV]

I can't beleive JimEIV is using players that are 5'10-6'0 to counter his arguement. Since when is 5'10, 5'11 small? That is just below NHL average, that is not small.

We are talking about the tiny ones, the midgets. Your arguement has no legs to stand on.

This whole started over Zach Parise being labeled a small player you fool!!!

Parise = 5.11 - 185

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

How can Darius Kasparaitis be such a viscous hitter at 5.11 -- Weight 209 ????

.

Thank you for supporting my claim that you have no clue what you are talking about.

Being 5'11 and 209 pounds is not small, not be anyone's obvervation. You are out of your gord. 5'11 is average to just below average in the NHL. It is not small.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

Parise = 5.11 - 185

Then you know what you should have done, brought up the fact that 5'11 isn't small.

Don't bring up Fluery, St. Louis etc interms of small players when talking about Parise in size issues. You simply point out 5''11 isn't small.

I had issue with the fact you said no player have ever not made the NHL because of size. Which is the most foolish thing I have ever heard.

 

[JimEIV]

Then you know what you should have done, brought up the fact that 5'11 isn't small.

Don't bring up Fluery, St. Louis etc interms of small players when talking about Parise in size issues. You simply point out 5''11 isn't small.

I had issue with the fact you said no player have ever not made the NHL because of size. Which is the most foolish thing I have ever heard.

The title of the thread is "Parise for Pouliot, Jacques " what did you think?

And I still contend that Height and weight will never keep anyone out the NHL who can do the job well.

Your Micki friend did not have a career in the NHL because he couldn't get the job done, not because he was 5'9 180......We know this is true because others 5'9 180 HAVE got the job done.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

Your Micki friend did not have a career in the NHL because he couldn't get the job done, not because he was 5'9 180......We know this is true because others 5'9 180 HAVE got the job done.

And their have been smaller players then DuPont forced to quit before even getting close to the NHL.

DuPont couldn't get the job done, because of his size. The fact that others have got it done means they have overcame their size, not all players can do that.

I have a feeling you are 5'2.

 

[Asiaoil]

This whole started over Zach Parise being labeled a small player you fool!!!

Parise = 5.11 - 185

Hesitantly I return to this scrum - I called Parise small and he is relatively speaking. He's closer to 5-9 than the 5-11 BS that's listed on the stats. Everyone knows smaller guys inflate their height and weight numbers. Just look at Parise in street clothes standing next to someone 6-0 and you will see that he's significantly smaller. We had this debate at the draft and guys who met Parise in person and looked him in the eye all said the same thing - a little less than 5-10 but with a thick build.

This is how dumb the Parise thing is - you compare the guy to Mike York (a damn fine smaller player) and people go ballistic. I could go on and tell you how Parise's AHL numbers project to the NHL (about 40 points or so) how people have looked at his situational numbers in the AHL and determined that he is getting soft minutes with the best line-mates. How his +/- is a concern. How his size will be an issue in the pros if NJ has another smaller center like Gomez or if he is teamed with smaller wingers. All of this stuff balances the obvious talent that a guy like Parise has. The kid will be an OK player - probably a solid second line 40-50 point type that you need to protect a bit or suffer the consequences defensively. That's an awesome result for a mid-round pick.

However - I can't jump on the bandwagon and say he's the next Joe Sakic. While his play in the AHL this year has been good - the truly elite guys are on another level. That's just the way it is.

 

[Cerebral]

I think Mike York is an excellent projection for Zach Parise. I think he'll be a really solid second line center that will give you somewhere around 50-60 points a season (maybe a few more in his prime) and he'll be reasonably solid defensively. However, like York, he'll struggle at times in the defensive zone due to his lack of size. York is a really solid defensive player but he is simply unable to do much against guys like Thornon that can just bowl him over.

There is nothing wrong with that though and I think Parise was a really solid pick by the Devils, especially that late in the first round...

 

[Dallas]

JimEIV,

Can size keep a player from making the big league? Try thinking about it like this:

Take a guy like Jacques for example. Jacques is 6'4", 215 lbs. In my opinion, it's almost guranteed that he will play in the NHL one day. Yet, if we could plop Jacques into the dryer for a few minutes and shrink him by a good 6 inches and 30 lbs., but not change any of his other skills or style of play, suddenly there'd be pretty much no hope of him ever making the NHL. So, if changing nothing but his size could mean the difference between an NHL career and not getting a sniff, you'd have to conclude that size alone can make the difference.

 

[Crosbyfan]

JimEIV,

Can size keep a player from making the big league? Try thinking about it like this:

Take a guy like Jacques for example. Jacques is 6'4", 215 lbs. In my opinion, it's almost guranteed that he will play in the NHL one day. Yet, if we could plop Jacques into the dryer for a few minutes and shrink him by a good 6 inches and 30 lbs., but not change any of his other skills or style of play, suddenly there'd be pretty much no hope of him ever making the NHL. So, if changing nothing but his size could mean the difference between an NHL career and not getting a sniff, you'd have to conclude that size alone can make the difference.

If you scaled him down he would be too slow for Bantam if that's what you mean.

 

[Crosbyfan]

And Bergeron is 4th in scoring on his team and Parise is 2nd and only by a couple of points.

55 points vs. 59 ?

How does that not compare???

Bergeron is better and a year younger. That's how it compares.

 

[JimEIV]

DuPont couldn't get the job done, because of his size.

I have a feeling you are 5'2.

No....No....No!!! Maybe he wasn't strong enough, I'll go with that. But that has nothing to do with height.


No I am not 5'2. My drivers license says 5'8 190 (but I'm more like 230, not good 230....A beer 230) I was 190 when I got the license

 

[Lou is God]

Hesitantly I return to this scrum - I called Parise small and he is relatively speaking. He's closer to 5-9 than the 5-11 BS that's listed on the stats. Everyone knows smaller guys inflate their height and weight numbers. Just look at Parise in street clothes standing next to someone 6-0 and you will see that he's significantly smaller. We had this debate at the draft and guys who met Parise in person and looked him in the eye all said the same thing - a little less than 5-10 but with a thick build.

This is how dumb the Parise thing is - you compare the guy to Mike York (a damn fine smaller player) and people go ballistic. I could go on and tell you how Parise's AHL numbers project to the NHL (about 40 points or so) how people have looked at his situational numbers in the AHL and determined that he is getting soft minutes with the best line-mates. How his +/- is a concern. How his size will be an issue in the pros if NJ has another smaller center like Gomez or if he is teamed with smaller wingers. All of this stuff balances the obvious talent that a guy like Parise has. The kid will be an OK player - probably a solid second line 40-50 point type that you need to protect a bit or suffer the consequences defensively. That's an awesome result for a mid-round pick.

However - I can't jump on the bandwagon and say he's the next Joe Sakic. While his play in the AHL this year has been good - the truly elite guys are on another level. That's just the way it is.

Big problem on your post here in on your theory on how points on a first year player in the AHL will be translated to on how many points they will score in the NHL, espicially since you didn't seem to take into account the quality of the team he is on or strength of the league this year.

The Rats average just 2.5 goals a game and despite that Parise has averaged .80 points a game or if you want to look at it another way he has been involved in 29% of the teams offensive scoring in a league that is probably the strongest it has ever been in years due to the hockey lockout. For a first year pro player that's pretty damn good, honestly I don't know what else this boy has to do but to suggest he's ONLY going to be a 40-50 point scorer in the NHL because he's not tearing up the league to your satisfaction is selling the kid short(no pun intended).

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Bergeron is better and a year younger. That's how it compares.

Bergeron is better? Parise did the same thing Bergeron did a year earlier as the underdog at the WJC without Crosby on his line. Parise had Murray and Werner lol

Parise doesn't have the pro experience that Begeron has, plays on a weaker team with weaker players and still puts up around the same ppg that Bergeron put up.

Bergeron is a safe bet to be a good 2nd liner, with the right linemates a first line center like Richards. Parise has a good chance to be a #1 center and with the right linemates and allstar. If Parise plays with Elias his first year he will probably win ROTY.

 

[JimEIV]

JimEIV,

Can size keep a player from making the big league? Try thinking about it like this:

Take a guy like Jacques for example. Jacques is 6'4", 215 lbs. In my opinion, it's almost guranteed that he will play in the NHL one day. Yet, if we could plop Jacques into the dryer for a few minutes and shrink him by a good 6 inches and 30 lbs., but not change any of his other skills or style of play, suddenly there'd be pretty much no hope of him ever making the NHL. So, if changing nothing but his size could mean the difference between an NHL career and not getting a sniff, you'd have to conclude that size alone can make the difference.

Sure there is no doubt a marginally skilled player with size will get the benefit of the doubt, but that is not what is being said here.

a Smaller player will get an opportunity and if he is good, if he can get the job done he will have a career. There are just tons of examples of this.

The small guys who don't make it, don't because they can't do the job.....But I don't see little Tie Domi or Darcy Tucker having a problem getting the job done....You see what I mean? These guys aren't the exception there are many examples of smaller tough players

At this point we are argueing over semantics......My whole point is ability will give any player an opportunity.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

2 sides? I named about 75 current NHLer 6.0 or under by my guessitmation that is about 10% of the NHL. That is not an "exception"

for every 5'10 guy that doesn't make it how many 6'2 215 guys don't make it either? That is a silly arguement

A guy 5'9 180 who can't stop a 6'3 forward doesn't deserve to be in the NHL.

Why can Brian Rafalski do though? How does Calle Johansson get it done? How can Darius Kasparaitis be such a viscous hitter at 5.11 -- Weight 209 ????

Height does not = Strength. And strength can be developed.

Height and weight does not = toughness either that is something you are just born with.

Youre missing the point. Anyone can name the guys in the NHL who made it cause they were "small" but god knows how many guys didnt make the NHL cause they were small.

That is all me and the other guy are saying.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Bergeron is better? Parise did the same thing Bergeron did a year earlier as the underdog at the WJC without Crosby on his line. Parise had Murray and Werner lol

Parise doesn't have the pro experience that Begeron has, plays on a weaker team with weaker players and still puts up around the same ppg that Bergeron put up.

Bergeron is a safe bet to be a good 2nd liner, with the right linemates a first line center like Richards. Parise has a good chance to be a #1 center and with the right linemates and allstar. If Parise plays with Elias his first year he will probably win ROTY.

Youre going to use 6 games to compare the 2? Id take Bergy in a second. He has laready proven he can play in the NHL. Has Parise? I dont care if he wasnt given the chance yet Bergeron is already a 50 point NHL player as an 18 year old.

Parise is the most overrated prospect on this board. Tied with Phaneuf. Will both be good NHLers? Yes. But not as good as everyones making them out to be.