Parise for Pouliot, Jacques

[LaLaLaprise]

Going with the assumption Parise can put up 30-35 more points than Pouliot, (I think that's a little high, but hey) the Oilers still come out on top. Pouliot is known for his great defensive skills as much as his offensive skills. His EV +/- will always be respectable. Jacques is a 30-35 point guy who destroys the opposition with thundering checks. In the end, adding a (conservative) estimation of 55 points on average from Pouliot with 30 from Jacques makes up 85 total points, around where I think Parise produces. However, what Parise lacks is what those two bring to the table- momentum-changing hits (Jacques) and the defense that wins championships (Pouliot). And while it's not in one player, MAP and JFJ will obviously have a combined TOI that's higher than Parise's, meaning the Oilers get more value out of their acquisitions.

This doesn't mean I wouldn't like Parise on my team- he's a born offensive dynamo. However, Lowe made a smart trade and even smarter selections that provides two things the Oilers didn't have before by sacrificing a type of player they ended up with anyway (Schremp).

Pouliot is NOT known for his defensive skills. Who ever told you that needs to give his head a shake. He isnt a defensive liability but I wouldnt consider him sound his own end.

 

[wedge]

Parise is much better than the two others.. but who knows, in 5 years, maybe Jacques will be a power-forward in the NHL.. and maybe he won't even be in the NHL... As for Pouliot, we have to wait to see what he can do at the professional level

bur for now, new jersey has the edge

 

[oil slick]

Sorry, I only read the Comrie and Briere then went off since this guy only bashes Parise. I actually think Parise will be a clone of York with more plymaking skills.

I love York and what he brings, so noone should feel insulted by this comparison. If Parise can be the next Mike York, then I think the Devils would be happy.

As for the trade, I think it is a toss-up at the moment, but it sure looks a lot better for the Oilers than it did a year ago. I think Parise has more of a chance of making a large impact at the NHL level, but it's hard to argue with the potential of both Jacques and Pouliot. I think more than a few Oiler fans are more stoked about Jacques than Pouliot at the moment, and a prospect who could turn into a power forward in the league is nothing to scoff at.

As others have said, to early to tell. However, for those who think that it's a slam dunk for the Devils, should reevaluate IMO.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Jacques will be a better pro than MA Pouliot. It isnt only my opinion but a lot of people around the Q feel this way as well.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Jacques will be a better pro than MA Pouliot. It isnt only my opinion but a lot of people around the Q feel this way as well.

I don't agree there. I like Jacque but Pouliot just amases me. He can get it done offensively both ways, he has good sense with the puck and also can finish. While his defense isn't a strong point Pouliot plays with an edge, is a leader and will learn defense at the pro level if needed.

 

[ZombieMatt]

I think this is a deal both teams can be relatively happy with.

Parise plays a game which fits very well into the Devils system. Frankly, I see more offensive potential in MAP than I do in Parise, but Parise brings a lot more to the table than just offence. JFJ is going to be a solid pro, probably a 2-3 line tweener, but he's physical and he gets the job done.

Basically I think it's a matter of if you prefer to have a high end 2nd liner or an average second liner and a third liner. That's how I see it breaking down.

In regards to the poster talking about Yzmernan, Sakic, etc being smaller. Most of their careers were in a different hockey era where size was not a critical. Yzerman has seen his production decrease over time, although Sakic has managed to be relatively stable (but is relied on in a more offensive role, perhaps). And, of course, Parise does not have Sakic's offensive skill. Same thing in calling Crosby small. Yes, he is small (right now), but he has a skill set untouched by any other prospect.

 

[Crosbyfan]

They both screwed up by not taking Bergeron.

 

[JimEIV]

IIn regards to the poster talking about Yzmernan, Sakic, etc being smaller. Most of their careers were in a different hockey era where size was not a critical.

Just like

Tie Domi Height 5.10 -- Weight 207 and Darcy Tucker Height 5.10 -- Weight 170

They couldn't possible survive in this new more physical era.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Just like

Tie Domi Height 5.10 -- Weight 207 and Darcy Tucker Height 5.10 -- Weight 170

They couldn't possible survive in this new more physical era.

I think it's safe to say that if anything should be gleaned from this thread it's that size continues to be overrated. There's no doubt in my mind that if there are two players of equal skill but unequal size, that the player that is bigger is preferable, but in a similar vein, give me a "smaller" player with a great skill-set and the heart of a champion (like a Martin St.Louis) over a big, soft, albeit talented stiff (aka Viktor Kozlov). I'm not saying that Pouliot and Jacques are stiffs, because they're not, but Parise does have the heart of a champion, and he will make a differance at the NHL level. Give me a player like him any day.

 

[JimEIV]

I think it's safe to say that if anything should be gleaned from this thread it's that size continues to be overrated.

You aint kidding!

Paul Kariya Left Wing
Born Oct 16 1974 -- Vancouver, BC
Height 5.11 -- Weight 180

Sergei Samsonov Left Wing
Born Oct 27 1978 -- Moscow, Russia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R

Petr Sykora Center
Born Nov 19 1976 -- Plzen, Czech
Height 5.11 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L

Daniel Alfredsson Right Wing
Born Dec 11 1972 -- Grums, Sweden
Height 5.11 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

Zigmund Palffy Right Wing
Born May 4 1972 -- Skalica, Slovakia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots L

Milan Hejduk Right Wing
Born Feb 14 1976 -- Usti-nad-Labem, Czech
Height 6.00 -- Weight 165 -- Shoots L

Markus Naslund Left Wing
Born Jul 30 1973 -- Ornskoldsvik, Sweden
Height 5.11 -- Weight 195

Brendan Morrison Center
Born Aug 15 1975 -- Pitt Meadows, BC
Height 5.11 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L

Martin St. Louis Right Wing
Born Jun 18 1975 -- Laval, PQ
Height 5.09 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots L

Alex Tanguay Center
Born Nov 21 1979 -- Ste-Justine, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots L

Steve Thomas Right Wing
Born Jul 15 1963 -- Stockport, England
Height 5.11 -- Weight 185

Brian Rafalski Defense
Born Sep 28 1973 -- Dearborn, MI
Height 5.10 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots R

John Madden Left Wing
Born May 4 1975 -- Barrie, ONT
Height 5.11 -- Weight 170 -- Shoots L

Pavel Datsyuk Center
Born Jul 20 1978 -- Sverdlovsk, Russia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 168 -- Shoots L

Kris Draper Center
Born May 24 1971 -- Toronto, ONT
Height 5.11 -- Weight 190

Mark Recchi Right Wing
Born Feb 1 1968 -- Kamloops, BC
Height 5.10 -- Weight 185

Ladislav Nagy Center
Born Jun 1 1979 -- Saca, Slovakia
Height 5.11 -- Weight 183 -- Shoots R

Daniel Briere Center
Born Oct 6 1977 -- Gatineau, PQ
Height 5.10 -- Weight 181 -- Shoots R

Todd Marchant Left Wing
Born Aug 12 1973 -- Buffalo, NY
Height 5.10 -- Weight 175

Tony Amonte Right Wing
Born Aug 2 1970 -- Hingham, MA
Height 6.00 -- Weight 195 -- Shoots L


Mike York Center
Born Jan 3 1978 -- Waterford, MI
Height 5.10 -- Weight 190

Simon Gagne Center
Born Feb 29 1980 -- Ste. Foy, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 165 -- Shoots L

Sami Kapanen Left Wing
Born Jun 14 1973 -- Vantae, Finland
Height 5.10 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots L

Scott Gomez Center
Born Dec 23 1979 -- Anchorage, AK
Height 5.11 -- Weight 200 -- Shoots L

Saku Koivu Center
Born Nov 23 1974 -- Turku, Finland
Height 5.10 -- Weight 183

Steve Sullivan Center
Born Jul 6 1974 -- Timmins, ONT
Height 5.09 -- Weight 155 -- Shoots R

Brenden Morrow Left Wing
Born Jan 16 1979 -- Carlyle, SASK
Height 5.11 -- Weight 210 -- Shoots L

Sergei Zholtok Center
Born Dec 2 1972 -- Riga, Latvia
Height 6.00 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots R

Patrice Bergeron Center
Born Jul 24 1985 -- Ancienne-Lorette, PQ
Height 6.00 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R

 

[chsb]

I wonder if the Bruins would have traded Bergeron for Pouliot and Jacques??

Is Parisé worth Bergeron?

I suggest that Pouliot and Jacques are two big pieces of cake for 1 player.
He better be as good as Bergeron at the NHL level.

Look what Bergeron did at 19 in the AHL compared to Parisé at 20 and it simply does not compare.

 

[JimEIV]

Look what Bergeron did at 19 in the AHL compared to Parisé at 20 and it simply does not compare.

Its a bit different going to the AHL from the NCAA vs the NHL... and there numbers are pretty close.

Patrice-- 2004-05 Providence Bruins AHL 64 20 39 59

Zach-- 2004-05 Albany River Rats AHL 67 16 39 55

So basically their numbers are the same and Parise had to go through all the change Bergeron did not

*******************************************



Ohh yeah and......

Chris Drury Left Wing
Born Aug 20 1976 -- Trumbull, CT
Height 5.10 -- Weight 195 -- Shoots R

Pavel Bure Right Wing
Born Mar 31 1971 -- Moscow, Russia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 192 -- Shoots L

Marc Savard Center
Born Jul 17 1977 -- Ottawa, ONT
Height 5.10 -- Weight 175 -- Shoots L

Justin Williams Right Wing
Born Oct 4 1981 -- Cobourg, ONT
Height 5.11 -- Weight 161 -- Shoots R

Mike Comrie Center
Born Sep 11 1980 -- Edmonton, ALTA
Height 5.10 -- Weight 172

Mike Peca Center
Born Mar 26 1974 -- Toronto, ONT
Height 5.11 -- Weight 181 -- Shoots R

Todd White Center
Born May 21 1975 -- Kanata, ONT
Height 5.10 -- Weight 181 -- Shoots L

Ray Whitney Left Wing
Born May 8 1972 -- Fort Saskatchewan, ALTA
Height 5.10 -- Weight 175

Yanic Perreault Center
Born Apr 4 1971 -- Sherbrooke, PQ
Height 5.11 -- Weight 189

Doug Gilmour Center
Born Jun 25 1963 -- Kingston, ONT
Height 5.11 -- Weight 175

Andrei Markov
Born Dec 20 1978 -- Voskresensk, Russia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 172 -- Shoots L

Maxim Afinogenov Right Wing
Born Sep 4 1979 -- Moscow, Russia
Height 5.11 -- Weight 176

Alexei Zhitnik Defense
Born Oct 10 1972 -- Kiev, Ukraine
Height 5.11 -- Weight 204

Vyacheslav Kozlov Right Wing
Born May 3 1972 -- Voskresensk, Russia
Height 5.10 -- Weight 172

Stu Barnes Center
Born Dec 25 1970 -- Spruce Grove, ALTA
Height 5.11 -- Weight 174

Valeri Bure Right Wing
Born Jun 13 1974 -- Moscow, Russia
Height 5.11 -- Weight 179

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I wonder if the Bruins would have traded Bergeron for Pouliot and Jacques??

Is Parisé worth Bergeron?

I suggest that Pouliot and Jacques are two big pieces of cake for 1 player.
He better be as good as Bergeron at the NHL level.

Look what Bergeron did at 19 in the AHL compared to Parisé at 20 and it simply does not compare.

That's a tough argument to make since Parise's development arc was via the NCAA rather than the CHL. Parise didn't really have the opportunity to strut his stuff at the NHL level like Bergeron did.

 

[Meat Wave]

Andrei Markov
Height 5.10 -- Weight 172 -- Shoots L

That's not even close to reality. The Canadiens official website has Markov at 6-0 and 208 pounds.

 

[JimEIV]

And Bergeron is 4th in scoring on his team and Parise is 2nd and only by a couple of points.

55 points vs. 59 ?

How does that not compare???

 

[JimEIV]

That's not even close to reality. The Canadiens official website has Markov at 6-0 and 208 pounds.

All the numbers come from Hockey DB...........But I named about 45 players and you're getting a woody over that?

 

[Meat Wave]

All the numbers come from Hockey DB...........But I named about 45 players and you're getting a woody over that?

Didn't say your point wasn't a good one though... because it is.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Yeah but for all those 45 players there are 500 who didnt make it because they were that size.

Mike Vernon is 5'08..if you are 5'08 in Midget you wont even be looked at for Major junior as a goaltender prospect. People use the exceptions to the rule.

 

[JimEIV]

People use the exceptions to the rule.

exception to the rule ???

I just went ahead and name 45 players + Sakic + Oates + Yzerman + Domi + Tucker Thats and even 50!

That will fill 2 teams entire roster and if I look harder, I garuntee I can find AT LEAST another 30 or so players!!! Like

Doug Weight Height 5.11 -- Weight 200
Shawn McEachern Height 5.11 -- Weight 195
Stanislav Chistov Height 5.10 -- Weight 195
Tyler Arnason Height 5.11 -- Weight 208
Robert Reichel Height 5.10 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L
Calle Johansson Height 5.11 -- Weight 200
Lyle Odelein Height 5.11 -- Weight 210
Alexei Morozov Height 6.00 -- Weight 179
Brian Holzinger Height 5.11 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R
Martin Straka Height 5.10 -- Weight 174 -- Shoots L

Thats 60.....And

Marc Bergevin Height 6.00 -- Weight 185 -- Shoots L
Wes Walz Height 5.10 -- Weight 180 -- Shoots R
Kip Miller Height 5.10 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots L
Jason Krog Height 5.11 -- Weight 191 -- Shoots R
Mike Sillinger Height 5.10 -- Weight 200
Mike Danton Height 5.09 -- Weight 190 -- Shoots R
P.J. Stock Height 5.11 -- Weight 183 -- Shoots L
Mathieu Schneider Height 5.11 -- Weight 187 -- Shoots L
Andreas Dackell Height 5.10 -- Weight 191
Brian Gionta Height 5.07 -- Weight 160 -- Shoots R

Thats 70 and notice I didn't even get to goalies!


You might want to go back to the drawing board on the "exception to the rule" theory.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

My point was that for every 5'10 player who makes the NHL there are 100 guys who dont because they cant over-come their size.

 

[JimEIV]

Yeah but for all those 45 players there are 500 who didnt make it because they were that size.

Remember 1 thing

Nobody doesn't "make it" because of there size! Nobody!

They don't make it because they are not good enough.....Pure and simple.

Ask Sam Mills the 5'8 NFL linebacker for the Saint who graduated from a Noname college(Montclair State here in New Jersey) who went on to a 12 year 5 pro bowl career.

Or 5'6 Theo Fluery or 5'7 Mats Naslund or 5'8 Pat Verbeek who manage to score 1063 career point and 2905 PIM

or how about 5'10 180# Dino Ciccarrelli who had 1200 career points?

Oh excuse me these guys played in that other era.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

Nobody doesn't "make it" because of there size! Nobody!

.

So untrue its not even funny. You say that because no one remembers the small guys who don't make it.

Micki Dupont, great skilled, great attitude, all the heart in the world. Couldn't make it to the NHL soley because of his size. He couldn't battle the stronger, bigger, NHL players. It because of size, countless other examples as well.

 

[LaLaLaprise]

Remember 1 thing

Nobody doesn't "make it" because of there size! Nobody!

They don't make it because they are not good enough.....Pure and simple.

Ask Sam Mills the 5'8 NFL linebacker for the Saint who graduated from a Noname college(Montclair State here in New Jersey) who went on to a 12 year 5 pro bowl career.

Or 5'6 Theo Fluery or 5'7 Mats Naslund or 5'8 Pat Verbeek who manage to score 1063 career point and 2905 PIM

or how about 5'10 180# Dino Ciccarrelli who had 1200 career points?

Oh excuse me these guys played in that other era.

There are lots of guys who dont make it because of size. Francis Charette of Rimouski is the 2nd most skilled player on the team, he is more purely talented than MAP and will he even be drafted? Nope.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

That's not even close to reality. The Canadiens official website has Markov at 6-0 and 208 pounds.

It isn't out of the realm of possibility that a team would fudge the height and weight stats some in favour of their guy.

That being said, Markov is certainly bigger then 5'10

 

[JimEIV]

Couldn't make it to the NHL soley because of his size. He couldn't battle the stronger, bigger, NHL players. It because of size, countless other examples as well.

But Gionta, Rechi, Fluery and Tucker can?

Re-evaluate that............ they weren't good enough.