OT: Parabola Memorial B.C. Lions Thread III

[Rocko604]

This might not be a popular opinion, but I'm throwing it out there for discussion. Like a lot of other markets in the CFL, Vancouver goes through constant ups and downs. Popularity wise they've been through the roof at times, and then in the gutter for a spell after. It seems cyclical, but then again I am seeing signs and trends that makes me think it might be more than that this time.

I think the city, and the character of downtown sports is changing, and fast. The sporting landscape in Canada's three largest cities is also trending. We've seen the MLS move in and be successful. And despite the Whitecaps, Toronto FC and Impact not showing years of winning history (in the MLS) yet, their popularity seems to keep rising. The CFL in all three markets is coincidentally declining very fast. I'm not convinced that winning teams will necessarily change that either.

Location means a lot here. I love the CFL and it's heritage to Canadian sport, but I feel it has its niche within the sports landscape too, especially in certain cities. The CFL doesn't match the character of the affluent, dense urban centres of downtown Vancouver or Toronto. If anything, the successful model for sports of this kind of level is more akin to what the Canadians are doing at Nat Bailey Stadium. By that I mean appealing to families, as a casual fan friendly event that is affordable and even casual. Yes the CFL is a lot bigger than Single A baseball, but it's probably closer to that than it is to the NFL or NHL. People might be averse to the use of the term, but I see a greater home for the Lions in suburbia. If it's done right. That's where the families are, and the youth that the league needs to target.

Perhaps its something Lions ownership needs to consider for the future.

Lot of good points here. One thing I would point out though is that the Whitecaps popularity has peaked. If their popularity was rising, they'd have opened the entire lower bowl by now and would be packing it every game. They're nowhere near that. They're never going to bring in crowds like the Sounders. They're likely going to host a playoff game and I wouldn't be surprised if they sell out the lower bowl for that. One thing the Whitecaps have always had an advantage over the Lions on is marketing and being in touch with their demographics.

Location of the team maybe an issue right now, given the cost of living, and more people moving out to the Valley, but they're not getting a stadium out in suburbia, so they have to figure out how to bring the fans back. Sadly, and I cannot emphasize this enough: David Braley Does. Not. Care. All he cares about is trying to fleece a new owner (and whoever it is isn't going to fall for it) and nickle and diming the fans that still go to games. He's trying to suck every last cent that he can before he sells and or dies. As far as I'm concerned, he's now the worst owner in the league. I appreciate everything he's done for the team and league, but he's overstayed his welcome. I cannot wait for him to GTFO.

 

[Hit the post]

Location of the team maybe an issue right now

I must have dozed off for a while laugh but what was the reasoning behind the new Whitecaps arena downtown going nowhere years ago? Opposition from whom?

 

[Rocko604]

I must have dozed off for a while laugh but what was the reasoning behind the new Whitecaps arena downtown going nowhere years ago? Opposition from whom?

Port Authority. Refused to give approval, as well as the land to build it on.

 

[RingWraith]

Absolutely disagree. The CFL did fine here for many years. We're currently on a down swing and that's been to poor ownership/poor marketing. Ownership has been very stale, not really investing a lot back into the team in recent years. Marketing has been horrible. Prices have risen and it wasn't until this year that they started doing the $5 kids tickets for most games.

I will agree that marketing has been horrible. Improvements in that will of course result in better attendance at BC Place. I'm not talking about short term here though. I'm trying to look at the long term shift I see in the sporting landscape. Vancouver will continue to become more and more expensive, that won't change. Families will continue the exodus further east and south. I feel that is a shift that we are starting to see the ramifications of during this current downswing. Of course it's not the only reason, I'm just saying that it is one that has just begun to tip the scales. And for a league of the type of stature of the CFL in a city like Vancouver, I feel that is the demographic the Lions need to be looking at. The highly wealthy and affluent demographics that will dominate the city long term are not interested in the CFL. They want the big leagues. And that isn't a slight on the CFL, it's simple laying things out as they are. Moving the team closer to their fanbase in the future might be the wisest thing to do.

The other demographic in abundance in the city centre however is young adults. I'm talking about students or graduates just starting out that rent and live with roommates. There's plenty of them in neighbourhoods surrounding downtown but they also feel like a lost cause for the CFL. This demographic is far more interested in the Whitecaps than the Lions. Soccer is the trending every man's sport that is cheap to participate in and highly accessible to a generation that is underemployed, but internationally savvy.

I also find it funny to see the Whitecaps being called successful. Their attendance doesn't seem to be that great, and is quite comparable with the Lions. Whenever I turn on a Whitecaps game (just to check it out on TV because I don't really follow them) I often see a lot of empty seats, just like the Lions. It isn't as if they're consistently selling out or bringing in more attendance than the Lions. Let's put this myth to bed.

The Whitecaps attendance is completely fine. It's very much in line with MLS averages, and this is happening within a stadium that is really beyond the current norms for the league. Both the Whitecaps and Lions now follow the model of closing the upper bowl to artificially limit seats. Both get similar numbers, the difference though, and I see it as a big one, is potential moving forward. The CFL is basically at its saturation point. It has had a century of rich history and it has settled as a 20,000-35,000 type of league depending on the market. The MLS in the three Canadian markets has massive potential still for growth. Gridiron football is trending down, soccer is trending up. This is for all sorts of reasons but it seems pretty clear. There's no myth about the Whitecaps success. They are a success. They went from Swangard Stadium in a forgettable tier of North American soccer to becoming a lively spectacle in the new BC Place almost overnight. The franchise has been around a long time, but as a member of the MLS they've only had a handful of seasons. Despite that short time I see FAR FAR more Whitecaps shirts and merchandise on the streets than I do Lions. It's not even close.

I don't see BC Place as an appropriate CFL stadium other than playoffs/Grey Cups. Even if they found a new home, I also think a facility outside of downtown would still benefit them more. I want the Lions to succeed, I just don't think they will long term at BC Place with the way that Vancouver is changing.

 

[RingWraith]

Lot of good points here. One thing I would point out though is that the Whitecaps popularity has peaked. If their popularity was rising, they'd have opened the entire lower bowl by now and would be packing it every game. They're nowhere near that. They're never going to bring in crowds like the Sounders. They're likely going to host a playoff game and I wouldn't be surprised if they sell out the lower bowl for that. One thing the Whitecaps have always had an advantage over the Lions on is marketing and being in touch with their demographics.

The Lions really need to learn from the Whitecaps and the Canadians about marketing. They've both targeted the right demographics and done it well.

This is a bit of an aside, but regarding the Whitecaps peaking, I'm not sure about that. Right now absolutely, sure, there won't be another explosion of attendance. Soccer development is going to take a while, but it's in about the best position its ever been in the US and Canada. If the National program can ever get moving (and it will eventually with the 3 MLS team development programs), then the popularity still has boundaries that it can cross. The MLS is interesting though in that it seems to largely be an urban league. Poor national TV ratings contrast strong fanbases in the host cities. Unique situation. If you look at the financial might of the MLS, team valuations and it's potential for growth, it could still become the fifth big time sports league in North America. An increase in stature for the league will attract more people in this market.

Location of the team maybe an issue right now, given the cost of living, and more people moving out to the Valley, but they're not getting a stadium out in suburbia, so they have to figure out how to bring the fans back. Sadly, and I cannot emphasize this enough: David Braley Does. Not. Care. All he cares about is trying to fleece a new owner (and whoever it is isn't going to fall for it) and nickle and diming the fans that still go to games. He's trying to suck every last cent that he can before he sells and or dies. As far as I'm concerned, he's now the worst owner in the league. I appreciate everything he's done for the team and league, but he's overstayed his welcome. I cannot wait for him to GTFO.

Damn Braley.

I know it's unlikely. I'm fantasizing a bit, but a modest 22,000 seat outdoor stadium in Surrey close to the junctions of the Expo and eventual LRT lines would be a far better home for the Lions than the cavernous BC Place. With the incredible amount of money and political will going in to the redevelopment of Surrey's city centre... who knows, maybe years down the line it is possible.

Edit: Sorry for double post.

 

[Rocko604]

FWIW, I wished they had completely torn BC Place down and built a stadium similar to Investors Group Field or Mosaic Stadium. 35k capacity, expandable to 40-45 for Grey Cups and big concerts. What exactly does this city need a 55,000 seat stadium for? Metallica and U2? Probably could have built a smaller CenturyLink for the same cost as the renovation.

 

[VanJack]

I know this is "pile on the Lions' day after losing to a dreadful team like the Ti-Cats....but it isn't just the Leos struggling in this market......Whitecaps attendance has peaked and people will support the Canucks, but only if they win.

NBA basketball couldn't make it here and Triple-A baseball died...You'd think a market like Vancouver would be enticing to Major League baseball, but an owner would go bust ever trying to make it work here.

Let's face it, during the summer there's just too many other things to do that are healthier and cheaper. Then there's the downtown traffic...The City of Vancouver holds to the view that if you're stupid enough to bring your car downtown, you deserve what you get....hours of gridlock. Have the owners of the Caps, Lions and Canucks actually spent time downtown 30-45 minutes before a game?....If they had, they'd know why fans on the other side of the bridges and out the Valley just don't bother. There are lots of people nowhere near a Skytrain station.

Everybody talks about new stadiums.....but let's be brutally frank here....Vancouver really isn't much of a pro sports town....which is the reason why two Sportstalk stations in the same market is ludicrous.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Last time the Lions missed the playoffs - 21 years ago.

Adam Rita was the coach and Damon Allen was the QB. Other than names like Lui Passaglia and Sean Millington and a couple others, there were a lot of guys I don't even remember.

http://www.justsportsstats.com/footballroster.php?team=CFLBC&year=1996

 

[y2kcanucks]

I know this is "pile on the Lions' day after losing to a dreadful team like the Ti-Cats....but it isn't just the Leos struggling in this market......Whitecaps attendance has peaked and people will support the Canucks, but only if they win.

NBA basketball couldn't make it here and Triple-A baseball died...You'd think a market like Vancouver would be enticing to Major League baseball, but an owner would go bust ever trying to make it work here.

Let's face it, during the summer there's just too many other things to do that are healthier and cheaper. Then there's the downtown traffic...The City of Vancouver holds to the view that if you're stupid enough to bring your car downtown, you deserve what you get....hours of gridlock. Have the owners of the Caps, Lions and Canucks actually spent time downtown 30-45 minutes before a game?....If they had, they'd know why fans on the other side of the bridges and out the Valley just don't bother. There are lots of people nowhere near a Skytrain station.

Everybody talks about new stadiums.....but let's be brutally frank here....Vancouver really isn't much of a pro sports town....which is the reason why two Sportstalk stations in the same market is ludicrous.

I think this is bang on. The Vancouver sports market is like a place to be seen, and that only happens if the team becomes a fad in the town due to being one of the dominant teams in whatever sport you're looking at.

 

[Hit the post]

and Triple-A baseball died..

except it didn't.

NBA basketball couldn't make it here

Expansion team + a GM that makes Jim Benning look FANTASTIC by comparison = recipe for disaster.

 

[y2kcanucks]

except it didn't.


Expansion team + a GM that makes Jim Benning look FANTASTIC by comparison = recipe for disaster.

Don't complain about Antonio Daniels over Tracy McGrady...we needed a PG. We all know PG's take longer to develop, there's still time.

 

[Rocko604]

Call me crazy, but I think there's a correlation between the on-ice success of the Canucks and the box-office success of our other franchises.

If the Canucks are doing well, it instills city pride and leaves fans wanting something to cheer for until the hockey season starts again. When the Canucks were President Cup contenders the Lions were doing fine with attendance and the Whitecaps hype was strong (albeit still in the honeymoon phase). Now that the Canucks have dropped off, so has the Lions attendance and the Whitecaps hype has flat-lined.

I know it's only a sample size of of the last 7-8 years, however, when the Canucks were in the toilet in 2000, no one cared about the Lions winning the 2000 Grey Cup either.

 

[Hit the post]

I know it's only a sample size of of the last 7-8 years, however, when the Canucks were in the toilet in 2000, no one cared about the Lions winning the 2000 Grey Cup either.

Lions were pretty mediocre that regular season though (below .500 record). That hardly helped the enthusiasm. No home games in the post-season (for obvious reasons - ie., their 8-10 record) as well.

 

[Rocko604]

So... The Lion's blew a 25-6 3rd quarter lead vs Ottawa yesterday. Go team.

 

[y2kcanucks]

I'm still in shock at how they blew this. A trademark of the Buono regime is that this team has never been prepared for trick plays. You could argue the turning point was Burnham's fumble, but I would say the bigger turning point was the trick onside kick that Ottawa recovered. Hopefully this will result in a complete housecleaning at the end of the season. We need a completely new coaching staff. I want younger, innovative coordinators on both sides of the ball.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Am now glad I had a big Thanksgiving dinner to go to yesterday so I didn't depress myself watching the Lions lose like that.

 

[Rocko604]

I'm still in shock at how they blew this. A trademark of the Buono regime is that this team has never been prepared for trick plays. You could argue the turning point was Burnham's fumble, but I would say the bigger turning point was the trick onside kick that Ottawa recovered. Hopefully this will result in a complete housecleaning at the end of the season. We need a completely new coaching staff. I want younger, innovative coordinators on both sides of the ball.

They'll probably just bring Chapdelaine back and call it a day.

Going to be interesting to see how missing the playoffs and averaging just over 18,000 per game will affect Braley's sale of the team. He absolutely cannot be the owner going into next season.

 

[VanJack]

Not much doubt about it....David Braley was almost single-handed responsible for saving CFL football in Vancouver and even the CFL at large when he was forced to own two teams in the league's biggest markets TO and Vancouver. But it's time....he needs to step up the effort to find local owners and retire.....As things stand now, Lions are basically going nowhere in this market and most people know it.

Actually, the franchise is about in the same place today as it was when the late Bob Ackles took over the team at the start of the decade.....and it look a ton of hard work to bring it back....and the work can only start with a clean sweep from ownership on down.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Well it's do or die today. Gotta win to have any hope of making the playoffs I think.

1 PM today in Winnipeg.

 

[Chairman Maouth]

Early pick by the Bombers for a TD.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Well that's done. 19 year playoff streak will be snapped barring an absolute miracle. This team's offense is complete garbage. Zero blocking from the O-line, Jennings has been crap, Chris Williams isn't the same explosive receiver he was before his knee injury. Special teams is..."special" Time to clean house.

 

[VanJack]

So let me see I can summarize the current plight of the Lions....David Braley has been trying to sell the team for three years, but wants to have a say in the ownership group...so appears to be in a stalemate....Wally Buono wants to retire and only stays on a favor to the owner, and there's been no team president for awhile now..

If Wally packs it in, most if not all of the coaching staff will join him in the exits.....the team has a bushel-full of free-agents but nobody with the authority to negotiate with them. And they've gone from having the deepest QB depth in the league to a situation where they might not have one.

The team can barely fill 18,000 seats in a 45,000 seat stadium, and is poised to miss the playoffs--pretty hard to do in the CFL. Whoever is left in team office answering the phones and selling tickets for next season, I wish them God speed.

 

[Brock Boeser Laser Show]

This team is terrible on and off the field.

Entire coaching staff needs to be overhauled. How the f*** is Dorazio still employed? OL is a tire fire under him. The cordinators are consistently outcoached and can't make the necessary adjustments. Wally's message is stale and the organization clearly needs a new voice much like Calgary did when he left. It's really a shame that we couldn't grab Dickenson before he took over in Calgary....hopefully we hire Claybrooks before somebody else snatches him up.

If you can't pressure the QB or protect your QB it really doesn't matter how much skill you have. DL/OL have been issues for years now and needs to seriously be addressed if this team ever wants to challenge Calgary in the west. The team needs to do a much better job of identifying DL import talent because it's been mostly misses since Cam Wake.

The fact this team can't draw has a lot to do with the terrible marketing over the past decade. They are losing an entire generation of fans and potential fans right now. They really need to do more to encourage people from out of town to attend games if they want the crowds back up in the 30,000+ range. It would be nice if they also moved training camp around a little more to different communities in BC....would it hurt them to come to Victoria every once in a while?? Westhills stadium would be perfect for training camp.

 

[VanJack]

They've lost a whole generation of fans alright, but not to apathy but to the Seattle Seahawks and the NFL.....just drop into any sports bar when the Hawks are playing, and then compare it to 'Lions Night'. ...really not sure that better marketing is going to make all that much difference anymore.....and as far as out-of-towners coming to games, it's not happening. The cost of coming to VanCity for a weekend and a CFL game like the old days is totally out of reach financially for many fans around B.C. In fact the cost of coming downtown, bucking traffic and paying outrageous prices for parking and a pre or post-game meal is a disincentive for even people living in the Lower Mainland suburbs.

Sorry to say it, but as the Boss belted it out in "My Hometown"....these jobs are goin' boys and they ain't comin' back."

 

[WinterEmpire]

I don't post here very often anymore because I don't have the ability to follow CFL as closely as I once did, but there has been a lot of discussion about attendance on radio and here from the looks of it, so I just wanted to weigh in with an opinion.

CFL attendance in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal is unlikely to ever improve in the future and its far beyond the point of where lack of marketing, entertainment or winning is the issue. It's wholly about perception. The population of these metro areas are too big, too young, and too global to get excited over a national second tier league. I don't see a solution where CFL will ever be on the rise here without dramatically reimagining the league(ie American Expansion type changes). If the BC Lions are to survive long term, they need to get out of Metro Vancouver entirely, maybe put a 20k seat stadium in Victoria? Not sure where, but I don't think its going to get back to the way it once was here.