GDT: Panthers @ Wings | 7:30PM ET | The Why is Jimmy Howard Still Starting? Edition

Redder Winger

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May 4, 2017
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Lower your expectations. Remember that this is a bottom 5 team. Lol.

I guess I'd prefer a defensively sloppy game where guys get a lot of clean breakaways and two on ones.
This was just both teams unable to make plays - in large part because of the ice.
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
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I'm wondering if there isn't some sort "break in" period with new arenas, especially when they're shared with other sports teams. Was Boston's ice bad the first year they were in the new Garden (yeah, it's the Boston Garden to me)? I keep thinking Dallas had to do quite a bit of work in their early seasons to get the ice even decent. Is Chicago's multi-use?

Good point. I have hope it gets better.
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
10,212
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Boston, MA
Get Abdelkader off Z's Wing and put Athanasiou there for 3 weeks.

Let's see what that does for AA and Z.

AA shouldn't be anywhere near the other team's top players. His advanced stats show he's not even that good playing against the other team's less talented players. And Abdelkader is the player I dislike the most on the Wings by a lot, but he's quietly putting together a 50 point season. That would be good for second on the team last season. Why switch him with a guy putting up numbers that are comparable to David Booth?
 

Dotter

THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Jul 2, 2014
8,439
2,880
Imprisonment, TN
goo.gl
AA shouldn't be anywhere near the other team's top players. His advanced stats show he's not even that good playing against the other team's less talented players. And Abdelkader is the player I dislike the most on the Wings by a lot, but he's quietly putting together a 50 point season. That would be good for second on the team last season. Why switch him with a guy putting up numbers that are comparable to David Booth?

I agree with you. But the default answer will be "because we need to suck harder".
 

Reddwit

Registered User
Feb 4, 2016
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It has more members. Love the use of zealots. Kudos. But aren't you doing the same thing? Is what's good for the goose not good for the gander?

Fancy words!!!

To be honest bud, I laid out a huge post explaining a bunch of stuff and all you've done is beat around the bush. Literally, your only argument is. Well. Nothing. Your responses have had no substance. No stance. Nothing. I even tried saying AA is a fine hockey player, one that has a role on the right team.

Have a great night. Keep on fighting the good fight.

Woof. What a dog of a post.

First of all, if you think "zealot" is a fancy word, then we're from two different worlds.

Second of all, the rest of your post is just one big detraction from your hyperbolic critiques of AA. You LITERALLY say:

- AA "has no head on his shoulders."
- His teammates "should expect him to cough up the puck."
- He "isn't all that great of a hockey player."

But you have the nerve to accuse me of having no substance to my post? I outlined the type of production he is posting and the type of minutes he gets while also highlighting the ostentatious ridicule the kid gets for every other shift he is on the ice. You're practically gaslighting me with the way you accuse me of having no substance while your posts contain little more than hyperbole, sarcasm, and bias.

The crazy thing about the whole AA argument continues to be that one side is sure that AA "has no head on his shoulders," has "no hockey sense or vision," and is responsible for any misgivings that go on while he is on the ice while the other side of the line has never come close to suggesting that AA is a superstar or should be gifted top minutes. One the one hand, you have a guy who is a secondary or tertiary product of a goal against and yet the anti-AA folk are quick to take up arms against him as if the goal against is his own individual doing. On the other hand, when do you ever hear anyone clamoring that that secondary assist that AA got was the true genesis of a goal for? Its reminiscent of debates about Hilary Clinton in 2016 - one side wanted her in jail, the other side thought she was alright. That's essentially the crux of the AA debate here and the only real reason why I myself take up arms against it. There is extreme animosity towards AA...and then there's the other side that just wants him to be viewed in a reasonable light...That's probably why there is a dearth of evidence that anyone thinks AA is some superstar despite requests for it.
 
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Reddwit

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Feb 4, 2016
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The stuff about Blashill:

That's what happens when the team doesn't have a core. It doesn't have a #1 center or a top defense pairing, that's 3 cornerstone pieces its missing. Not really the foundations for a great team, is it? The team is literally sitting right where anyone with half a brain predicted it would be.

As for the AA 3rd line/2nd line stuff; He's getting over 15 a night on lines that vary in usage, the only forwards getting significantly more are Larkin and Zetterberg, mostly because they are being doubleshifted more in the 11/7 scheme, a couple other players like Abdelkader is also getting a bit of a bump because of double-shifting, so just quoting ToI is vacuous. And his scoring clip is inflated by a couple good games, he's been invisible a lot more than he's been scoring. And even with most ToI he's ever had his Fenwick and Corsi are both significantly lower than his career average, showing he's not driving possession when he's on the ice. Why should he get more time than Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, or Abdelkader (not to mention Larkin, Nielsen or Zetterberg who usually line up as centers)? All of them have better possession numbers and are scoring at higher or near the same pts/g as him. But don't take the facts into account. Because the stats say he's easily behind 4 wingers and 3 centers when you factor in points and possession, which puts him, wait for it, in or around the THIRD line.

Your comments about Blashill are irrelevant and misguided when you continue to argue a point that nobody made. No one is asking for the Wings to be a good team. Most of us knew that was never going to happen this year. What I did argue, however, which you continue to ignore and/or debate with prescient allegations, is that we would have a more entertaining team with statistics benefitting the youth or the trade chips. But I anticipate you're prepared to hit me with more "objective evidence" about what is going to happen in the future.

As for AA, hilarious that you want to talk about facts. How is quoting TOI vacuous when he is factually getting third line ice time by league standards and also factually producing at a 2nd line rate by league standards?

And who is advocating for AA getting more ice time than our best players? Pray tell. The only thing I advocate is (1) AA getting more ice time when he is on pace for a 4th liners minutes - which is interesting, because you yourself consider him a 3rd liner - and (2) AA getting a consistent role/place on the team, which is hilarious because you yourself point out that he has been given spots on lines that vary in usage. What a great way to utilize a forward who you want more consistency from!

You want to talk more about facts? How about the fact that AA is 6th in forwards in points per game?

You want to talk about taking away big games? Take away AAs 1 big game and he has 7 points in 19 games. But take away Zetterberg's one big game and he has just 13 points in 29 games! Take away Abby's 3 game hot streak and he has just 12 in 27! Gee golly gosh, Mantha must be trash. Take away 4 of his best games and that loser only has 10 points in 26 games!!! And Mike Green? I pity the fool who spends a 1st on him! 28 games and he's had just 11 points!!! Woohoo! Selective facts!

As for Corsi and Fenwick, well you've got me there. Those are truly the be-all and end-all of stats. If only AA could have the vaunted advanced stats that the likes of Jensen or Tatar have, then we could assemble a team of advanced stats wizards the likes of which haven't been seen since the 2017-18 Arizona Coyotes!
 

Shaman464

No u
May 1, 2009
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Boston, MA
Your comments about Blashill are irrelevant and misguided when you continue to argue a point that nobody made. No one is asking for the Wings to be a good team. Most of us knew that was never going to happen this year. What I did argue, however, which you continue to ignore and/or debate with prescient allegations, is that we would have a more entertaining team with statistics benefitting the youth or the trade chips. But I anticipate you're prepared to hit me with more "objective evidence" about what is going to happen in the future.

As for AA, hilarious that you want to talk about facts. How is quoting TOI vacuous when he is factually getting third line ice time by league standards and also factually producing at a 2nd line rate by league standards?

And who is advocating for AA getting more ice time than our best players? Pray tell. The only thing I advocate is (1) AA getting more ice time when he is on pace for a 4th liners minutes - which is interesting, because you yourself consider him a 3rd liner - and (2) AA getting a consistent role/place on the team, which is hilarious because you yourself point out that he has been given spots on lines that vary in usage. What a great way to utilize a forward who you want more consistency from!

You want to talk more about facts? How about the fact that AA is 6th in forwards in points per game?

You want to talk about taking away big games? Take away AAs 1 big game and he has 7 points in 19 games. But take away Zetterberg's one big game and he has just 13 points in 29 games! Take away Abby's 3 game hot streak and he has just 12 in 27! Gee golly gosh, Mantha must be trash. Take away 4 of his best games and that loser only has 10 points in 26 games!!! And Mike Green? I pity the fool who spends a 1st on him! 28 games and he's had just 11 points!!! Woohoo! Selective facts!

As for Corsi and Fenwick, well you've got me there. Those are truly the be-all and end-all of stats. If only AA could have the vaunted advanced stats that the likes of Jensen or Tatar have, then we could assemble a team of advanced stats wizards the likes of which haven't been seen since the 2017-18 Arizona Coyotes!

So far there are non-answers at one point you claim he's getting treated like a 3rd/4th liner but then agree that he is getting a lot of different usage. You gloss over a major point that negates comparing ToI across the league once you remember that the Wings are rolling three lines at pretty much equal time and than a hodge-podge 4th line that inflates a few players ToI, but doesn't reflect the fact that that usage isn't first line usage but 4th line double shifting. His 15:16 ATOI is about the same as Mitch Manner, Tyler Toffoli, Nico Hischier, Jordan Eberle, Connor Brown, Brendan Gallagher, Nikolaj Ehlers, Alex Galchenyuk are all getting. Putting him in the top 50% of players with at least 15 games in ATOI. That's not really third line minutes, that's the bottom 1/3rd of 2nd line minutes. Not really anything to sneeze at, and definitely not factually third line minutes.

As for AA's points per game, again, it's not a great reflection of his season, he had a couple good games and a lot of games where he's not done a lot. Yes you can compare him to Z and Abby and whomever, but there is a difference between taking away 5% of AA's season and taking away 10-15% of two other player's seasons. You don't also take into account that Z is 37, or that Abby is well Abby and is on pace for 50 points. So you can take things in perfectly context devoid ways and prove anything.

And as for Corsi and Fenwick, they aren't prefect end-all be-all stats, but they are at least semi-reliable determinate of who drives possession, and all of AA's advance stats are showing he's not playing well this season, even his non-advance stats and bare comparisons to his previous 101 games he's definitely not playing as well as he has before.
 

HockeyinHD

Semi-retired former active poster.
Jun 18, 2006
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As for AA, hilarious that you want to talk about facts. How is quoting TOI vacuous when he is factually getting third line ice time by league standards and also factually producing at a 2nd line rate by league standards?

That's the Holmstrom argument. He would always get very little IT but be very productive within that role. IMO AA's not a consistently effective player and is a net negative on the ice right now, hence his 3rd worst on the team -8 in much less total IT.

He has some moments though.

This team had (and maybe has) a real shot to be at least playoff competitive, but their goaltending is just flat out killing them. Again.
 

turkleton85

Registered User
Dec 12, 2017
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This team had (and maybe has) a real shot to be at least playoff competitive, but their goaltending is just flat out killing them. Again.


i don't know, it's not a coincidence that we find the wings at the bottom of the standings, they rarely click on all cylinders. When goaltending is hot, goalscoring might be a problem. When goalscoring looks good, blashhill gets his blender out and kills any chemistry. This team needs to play at 110% each night to reach the playoffs, but the human body and mind can't go all out every time. Every team can play good for certain stretches, i don't believe the current wings are good enough to compete for a playoff spot over 82 games. I'm actually surprised to see 2 or 3 teams that are clearly worse than us.
 

lomekian

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Oct 28, 2013
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i don't know, it's not a coincidence that we find the wings at the bottom of the standings, they rarely click on all cylinders. When goaltending is hot, goalscoring might be a problem. When goalscoring looks good, blashhill gets his blender out and kills any chemistry. This team needs to play at 110% each night to reach the playoffs, but the human body and mind can't go all out every time. Every team can play good for certain stretches, i don't believe the current wings are good enough to compete for a playoff spot over 82 games. I'm actually surprised to see 2 or 3 teams that are clearly worse than us.

This roster has neither the talent nor the coaching (mein gott!) to win games without playing somewhere near its peak ability. There is probably about 16-20 teams in the NHL that this applies to, but the wings also have major consistency issues due to either young players, aging players or players that were never that consistent anyway. The only players that are really consistent are those without the talent to be real difference makers, whereas most other teams have their top talent providing consistency. the top 10 ish teams don't have to play well to win...STL beating us being a fine example. They just kept their D focused and took advantage of errors.

Has to be said again though that Blash's coaching really doesn't help matters (unless the help is to better lottery odds and speeding the vets to retirement).
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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This team had (and maybe has) a real shot to be at least playoff competitive, but their goaltending is just flat out killing them. Again.
Detroit is currently 28th in goals scored and tied for 22nd in goals yielded. Both netminders have been a problem, but there's a lot more killing them than just goaltending.
 

Heaton

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Feb 13, 2004
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Detroit is currently 28th in goals scored and tied for 22nd in goals yielded. Both netminders have been a problem, but there's a lot more killing them than just goaltending.

Exactly. The past two seasons have been atrocious as far as goalscoring is concerned. Our scoring is on par with the 1970's horrible teams.
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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Exactly. The past two seasons have been atrocious as far as goalscoring is concerned. Our scoring is on par with the 1970's horrible teams.
Mostly, I'd argue, because this defense starts more rushes for the opposition than for the Wings.

And it feels like traveling a dead end freeway, where there have been multiple exit ramps to safety, but the car keeps driving right past them.

DANGER! Lidstrom retiring ahead! Acquire a defenseman soon!

Exit ramp for Suter? Nope; he wanted another team.

Leave the road by drafting a bunch of guys, and hoping one sticks? Nope; having too much fun selecting wingers.

Find a way out by trading one or more roster players for a defenseman? Nah, we like our team.

SMASH!

Hey... What just happened?
 

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