Ovechkin's 65 and Gretzky's 92

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin made Backstrom into a 100 point player.

So much terrible logic in this thread: All the points about technology and modern training and how crappy goal tenders used to be is already baked into the numbers.

 

[plikestechno]

Ovechkin's goal totals now are for more impressive than Gretzky's back then. And that's me saying that as an Oilers fan.

Gretzky's even said so himself.

I hope OV can play another 10 years and break the record. That record will NEVER be broken.

 

[johnnybbadd]

I have to say it's Gretzky because he was a playmaker first and a scorer second. There are lots of adjusted stats that say that Ovechkin's 65 is as impressive as Gretzky's 92 because of scoring levels and anyone that would agree with that still must agree that Gretzky's assist totals would probably double Ovi's while still scoring goals at the same clip or near it.

 

[squaleca]

what makes me laugh is when people talk about gretzky peak and comparing to other players there are no other players on this planet to compare

gretzky peak 82 - 87 6 seasons points per season avg 203

 

[PhilJets]

I know right, Ovie beating 2 defenders and putting it around the goalie while sliding on his back has nothing on Gretzky taking a slap shot from just inside the blue line on a break away against a goalie that barely moves.

That is one great goal no doubt by ovie, but a lot of not so great players can get and have scored wonderful goals.

You should watch more of gretzky, not just the slapshot to score that goal. But how he moves 3 to10 seconds before he scores goals. You'll marvel at how good (great) the guy is.
He played on another level.

Also if goalies of the 80s barely moves. So many guys would have scored with slappers on the blue line. But really nobody was doing it but him.

 

[authentic]

That is one great goal no doubt by ovie, but a lot of not so great players can get and have scored wonderful goals.

You should watch more of gretzky, not just the slapshot to score that goal. But how he moves 3 to10 seconds before he scores goals. You'll marvel at how good (great) the guy is.
He played on another level.

Also if goalies of the 80s barely moves. So many guys would have scored with slappers on the blue line. But really nobody was doing it but him.

Lol.

 

[vancityluongo]

It's kind of a stupid argument though. I doubt anyone is trying to measure individuals/teams by putting them in a time machine and transporting them to this day.

The Roman army would be destroyed by small group of tactical air strikes, doesn't mean it's not one of the greatest armies ever. Newton wouldn't be able to use smart-phones if we transport him to this day. He's still one of the brightest minds ever.

The only way to compare people across history is to compare them to their peers within context. Nobody think Maurice Richard would be the best goalscorer in this day's league if we just time travel to get him. But he was the best goalscorer of his era, sometimes playing in watered down league (WWII for example) but also facing heavy competition and always rising to the top. He's still one of the best/greatest ever, even if in 1000 years hockey will be played with bionic men.

Yup.

Transformers 5 (or whatever the latest one is) would've been an absolutely mind blowing movie in 1962. Like unfathomable in every regard, from special effects to sound and composition. Doesn't mean it's a better movie than Lawrence of Arabia.

Saying technology doesn't matter simply because it now exists does not allow for any sort of meaningful comparison.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Ovechkin's goal totals now are for more impressive than Gretzky's back then. And that's me saying that as an Oilers fan.

Gretzky's even said so himself.

I hope OV can play another 10 years and break the record. That record will NEVER be broken.

I don't think anything in hockey or all of sports is more impressive than breaking the single season goal mark.

Except for having the most career goals of anyone ever.

Or the highest number of career playoff goals.

I love OV and I'll argue with the Bossy crowd and think he has the nastiest shot video has recorded, but Wayne would've had a better chance than anyone at making sure the puck went from his stick to the back of their net, even if it had to hit someone or something along the way. That much is not up for debate.

Who knows how many assists he had where he might as well have just gotten credit for the goals...

65 goals is 27 short of 92. Teammates got better along with the sticks and skates and pads and gloves too.

 

[CHGoalie27]

It's kind of a stupid argument though. I doubt anyone is trying to measure individuals/teams by putting them in a time machine and transporting them to this day.

The Roman army would be destroyed by small group of tactical air strikes, doesn't mean it's not one of the greatest armies ever. Newton wouldn't be able to use smart-phones if we transport him to this day. He's still one of the brightest minds ever.

The only way to compare people across history is to compare them to their peers within context. Nobody think Maurice Richard would be the best goalscorer in this day's league if we just time travel to get him. But he was the best goalscorer of his era, sometimes playing in watered down league (WWII for example) but also facing heavy competition and always rising to the top. He's still one of the best/greatest ever, even if in 1000 years hockey will be played with bionic men.

I like this a lot

 

[ImporterExporter]

Ovechkin isn't breaking any more goal records if he continues to play as he did in 2016-17.

Even if he averages 50 goals a year for the next 6, he's still short of Gretzky and would be what, 38 years old?

I don't think that's happening. It all depends on how long he wants to stay in the NHL. If he sticks around and complies, then yeah, he's got a shot, but my guess is no. I'd wager he ends up 3rd all time.

 

[Xelebes]

delete

 

[squaleca]

gretzky avg 62 goals per season his first 12 years. shit do 10 years and its even more disgusting

 

[Zuluss]

gretzky avg 62 goals per season his first 12 years. **** do 10 years and its even more disgusting

In Gretzky's first 12 years, a player finishing 10th in the goal-scoring race averaged 47 goals. So he was 32% better than #10, on average.
In the past eight full seasons (2008-2012 and 2013-2017), a player finishing 10th averaged 35 goals. 32% better than that is 46 goals. That's a lot, but a healthy Stamkos averages 47 goals in the past eight full seasons, and Ovechkin averages 45 despite the fact that the time frame excludes his signature 65-goal season, includes three down seasons marred by two serious wrist injuries, and gives him no credit for the 12/13 campaign.
So, raw numbers do not tell you the whole story, and this is why we have this forum

 

[bobc222]

I'm not entirely sure how this is even remotely within the realm of debatable. If you watch the tape from the 80s the goalies are just not that effective. Their pads are small and their ability to make a save is severely limited by their lack of technical training. In any case, that's not even the reason that Ovechkin would easily score more than 92 in that era. It has to do with his physical attributes. OV has been criticized for "poor" skating technique but in his prime he was one of the fastest and most explosive players in the league. Far more so than any player in the 80's-- he would blow by them. If he came up against some of the faster players from the 80's he would bulldoze most of them anyways...there's simply no one who would be able to stand up against his size, strength and ability score at will on goalies that would be largely useless. He would dominate in the 80's from a goal scoring perspective unlike Gretzky could. Hypothetical one on one? Ovechkin every time...Gretzky's hokckey IQ would be irrelevant. Now NONE of this is to say that Gretzky is a bad player or Ovechkin is the most dominant player of all time, Gretzky clearly is (maybe Lemieux) . However, its ridiculous to even compare the two players because they effectively played two very different versions of ice hockey. Its that simple. Ovechkin in the 80's could pick corners all day no matter who is in the net.

 

[Irato99]

I'm not entirely sure how this is even remotely within the realm of debatable. If you watch the tape from the 80s the goalies are just not that effective. Their pads are small and their ability to make a save is severely limited by their lack of technical training. In any case, that's not even the reason that Ovechkin would easily score more than 92 in that era. It has to do with his physical attributes. OV has been criticized for "poor" skating technique but in his prime he was one of the fastest and most explosive players in the league. Far more so than any player in the 80's-- he would blow by them. If he came up against some of the faster players from the 80's he would bulldoze most of them anyways...there's simply no one who would be able to stand up against his size, strength and ability score at will on goalies that would be largely useless. He would dominate in the 80's from a goal scoring perspective unlike Gretzky could. Hypothetical one on one? Ovechkin every time...Gretzky's hokckey IQ would be irrelevant. Now NONE of this is to say that Gretzky is a bad player or Ovechkin is the most dominant player of all time, Gretzky clearly is (maybe Lemieux) . However, its ridiculous to even compare the two players because they effectively played two very different versions of ice hockey. Its that simple. Ovechkin in the 80's could pick corners all day no matter who is in the net.

One big mistake in this post, Ovechkin in the 80s would have an 80s stick, 80s skates, 80s protection, 80s rules, 80s training. And if we push it further, Overchin in the 80s would not be playing in the NHL.

 

[bobc222]

One big mistake in this post, Ovechkin in the 80s would have an 80s stick, 80s skates, 80s protection, 80s rules, 80s training. And if we push it further, Overchin in the 80s would not be playing in the NHL.

Sure that's certainly valid, but by the same token I think we can look at the equipment and say that's one thing that would make him less effective than now but the physical fitness level isn't something that can be era adjusted. In any case I'm still firmly of the belief that the difference in equipment pales in comparison to the quality of defense and goaltending he'd be facing.

 

[Laineux]

I'm not entirely sure how this is even remotely within the realm of debatable. If you watch the tape from the 80s the goalies are just not that effective. Their pads are small and their ability to make a save is severely limited by their lack of technical training. In any case, that's not even the reason that Ovechkin would easily score more than 92 in that era. It has to do with his physical attributes. OV has been criticized for "poor" skating technique but in his prime he was one of the fastest and most explosive players in the league. Far more so than any player in the 80's-- he would blow by them. If he came up against some of the faster players from the 80's he would bulldoze most of them anyways...there's simply no one who would be able to stand up against his size, strength and ability score at will on goalies that would be largely useless. He would dominate in the 80's from a goal scoring perspective unlike Gretzky could. Hypothetical one on one? Ovechkin every time...Gretzky's hokckey IQ would be irrelevant. Now NONE of this is to say that Gretzky is a bad player or Ovechkin is the most dominant player of all time, Gretzky clearly is (maybe Lemieux) . However, its ridiculous to even compare the two players because they effectively played two very different versions of ice hockey. Its that simple. Ovechkin in the 80's could pick corners all day no matter who is in the net.

Time machine Ovie would definitely destroy the league in the 80s, but that kind of Ovie would also never develop if he was born in the 1960s. Just like a decent 1st year physics student could revolutionize the field if he was transferred to the 1800s.

 

[Thenameless]

Ovechkin's goal totals now are for more impressive than Gretzky's back then. And that's me saying that as an Oilers fan.

Gretzky's even said so himself.

I hope OV can play another 10 years and break the record. That record will NEVER be broken.

You could argue that they are just as impressive, or maybe a bit more impressive but I think that would be a stretch. "Far more impressive"? No.

 

[RageQuit77]

Interesting thread.

If time-machine Ovi would be transported to '80s with all hindsight, modern equipment, training-methods etc. with his line-/teammates with similar modern perks, they would crush whole league with their efficiency.

However, if time-machine Gretzky & co. would be transferred to modern-era and forced to stick in their '80s gears and habits against current opposition, they wouldn't thrive as they did during Edmonton's dynasty era.

But, if it would be possible to put Gretzky & Co. to some sort of time loop during 2010s (for saving years of their prime) to learn the ways of current hockey, to use contemporary equipment properly, to make adequate training etc. they would absolutely crush '80s league and form the Dynasty there back in time, if they would be sent back into those days.

uh... oh...

They actually did that without modern gears, training, and experience from '10s hockey!!!

So, maybe it's impossible to send hockey equipment via time-machine (like in Terminator movies), and time-traveling seemingly caused also total loss of memory to whole team, as well as disappearance of all physical gains from the future training and nutrition as skinny Gretzky still needed Semenko on his side, while wooden sticks were still in favor, butterfly wasn't yet developed...

Whole future training gone waste and still they won 5 Cups, and The Great One managed to cumulate totally ridiculous numbers.

 

[Nino33]

If time-machine Ovi would be transported to '80s with all hindsight, modern equipment, training-methods etc. with his line-/teammates with similar modern perks, they would crush whole league with their efficiency.

They'd get (literally) crushed too...pretty much every hit you see nowadays that gets a suspension (and those that don't but get lots of HFBoards posting) would be legal and a non-issue in the 80s + they'd be at much greater risk to injury (for example, what happened to Gaudreau with modern gloves); seriously, most every suspendable offense nowadays wasn't more than a minor penalty in the 80s (and often it wasn't a penalty...virtually every big hit I see nowadays wasn't a penalty in the 80s) + more hooking/holding (and being driven into the boards), and a player dropping the gloves and pounding on you doesn't get suspended (but you'll likely be called out for turtling) - did you see Ovechkin fight? It was comical! Embarrassingly bad! Guys in the 80s would beat him senseless (and there'd be no outcry it was wrong and no suspension/etc)......Ovechkin and his Capitals linemates would face more physical play and clutching/grabbing in the 80s than they've ever experienced before (more physical than any playoff game they've ever played); modern hockey looks more like ringette to me than the hockey I watched in the 80s

However, if time-machine Gretzky & co. would be transferred to modern-era and forced to stick in their '80s gears and habits against current opposition, they wouldn't thrive as they did during Edmonton's dynasty era.

That's your opinion, mine's different (mine's essentially I don't know/I'm not sure, but I am sure IMO that modern players would not "crush the whole league").....I think the Oilers D from the 80s would LOVE the extra high glass and a game where most of what they have to do is chip it off the extra high glass (something that wasn't an option in the 80s), Fuhr/Moog would love the protection they get from interference, player's shots would all be harder, offensive talent would have lots more space/far less checking and hitting, the 80's Oilers would love that the two line pass offside has been removed, Coffey would make people realize what an offensive D is (Karrlsson like offensive talent with McDavid like speed), increased TV timeouts/more rest, and on and on and on....

Modern players play a game made easier by the equipment and rules...not sure why that makes them "better" as athletes (and I don't care how much modern hockey players train it's no more than the Soviet's NT did in the 70s/80s...IMO the Soviets trained more)

IMO modern hockey has seen a significant change in the gameplay in recent decades (moreso than any other major sport IMO), and for sure the bottom players are "better" (which to me mostly means more suited for the significantly different modern game).....but I also believe that due to rule/equipment changes the game's never been easier to play

IMO players "from the old days" transported forward in time to modern hockey would find it much, much easier to adjust than modern players would if transported back in time

 

[RageQuit77]

@Nino33

Just ranting some thoughts about the thread with little bit tongue-on-cheek mentality.

Not going to quote everything, but I agree almost everything you said. That ringette comment made me laugh loud. And yes, during '80s top level Russians probably trained much more and better then what was average training level/quality in top level hockey at the North America. Top Guys were practically all in Military Service of The Red Army with ranks and all. Organised as hell!

At least '80s Edmonton would have a lot of Penalty Killing against contemporary Capitals in their first modern games back in the future, sure.

 

[Nino33]

At least '80s Edmonton would have a lot of Penalty Killing against contemporary Capitals in their first modern games back in the future, sure.

Yeah, I suspect some of the 3rd/4th line battles wouldn't be good matchups at all for the Oilers! HaHa I seriously can't imagine Semenko even being played (he'd just be far to slow in the modern game; he'd be like those old table hockey games where the player doesn't actually move, just spins 'round and 'round swinging their stick!)

And yes, during '80s top level Russians probably trained much more and better then what was average training level/quality in top level hockey at the North America.

I wasn't questioning whether the Soviets trained more than NA players back then (that was well known/accepted even back then)...I think those Soviet players trained as much as any modern player (and maybe more!); for me, in regards to elite players, this is where the whole "they're in so much better shape nowadays" argument simply isn't true

The Soviets trained as much/more than modern players & the NA players who beat them must have been in decent shape to do so...and all without the increased opportunity for rest during games (included scheduled TV timeouts that can be planned for!)

 

[RageQuit77]

Dear Nino33, I want only ask how long and how well - in your honest opinion - The Great One would do in this era all things considered in your evaluation? I, just like you know that Ovi can do pretty well [sic], I also know that when we talk #99 we talk about the best playmaker ever in the game of hockey, so good his accidental/co-incidental/by-product goal scoring exceeds everything before or after him by wide margin, all eras considered. You know that. We all know that.

Ovi is only one whom has even remote change to beat The Great G. in raw, total numbers in goals scored (when it's all is said and done). We can put whatever multiplier to factor goal scoring across/between eras, and regardless of that the objective reality remains. The Great One objectively put the puck to the net, both in regular season games and in the playoffs, more then anyone before or after him. That puck really was in there in a goal more often then a puck shot by anybody else over all eras of hockey.

All of this makes sense only if looked at within it's context, and that is exactly what makes The Great One The Great One.

He can be adjusted to be second best Goal Scorer by some more or less well defined/argued/calculated/formulated reasonings, but it's highly unlike that even Ovi would ever break his record. When/if that happens, The Great One can still draw an unique card of

+1 KiloAssists

Dear Nino33, You know.

 

[Nino33]

Dear Nino33, I want only ask how long and how well - in your honest opinion - The Great One would do in this era all things considered in your evaluation?

My hockey memory goes back to 1976...I was a goalie and loved defensive hockey and I HATED the Oilers throughout the 80s until the late 90s (they eventually became so bad for so long it was impossible for me to hate them anymore HaHa); I lived in Edmonton during much of their glory years (saw WEM practices live & 50+ regular season games a year plus playoffs on TV); I was actually a Flyer fan back then (pretty depressing to lose twice in the SCF to a team I HATED while living in the same city as the winner...I lived like 10 blocks from Northlands! hearing the celebrating in 1987 was crushing at the time)

I say all this to add "context" to my answer - I watched Gretzky play LOTS and still follow hockey now, and I think Gretzky would be Gretzky even now because #1 every good point saying he couldn't/wouldn't nowadays was said back then too...and yet he did what he did #2 as I noted above, I think "elite players are elite players" regardless of era

I'm not quantifying what "Gretzky would be Gretzky" means as ultimately it's going to be different opinions (especially with those who think modern players would crush/destroy/etc if they played a few decades ago)

 

[Feed Me A Stray Cat]

I don't think the discussion about Ovechkin playing in the 1980s, or Gretzky playing today, or the difference in goalies, training regimens and equipment, is relevant.

What matters is how both players performed in relation to their peers when they played. Clearly Alexander Ovechkin would run roughshod over the NHL in the 1980s due to his size and speed. But who cares? We need to look at their actual production in relation to how other players produced at the same time.

I don't think simple adjustments related to league-wide GPG do the trick. I'm more interested in seeing how each player performed in comparison to the other elite players of the time.

81-82 Goal Scoring Leaders:
1. Gretzky - 92
2. Bossy - 64
3. Maruk - 60
4. Ciccarelli - 55
5. Vaive - 54

It's clear that the 50-60 goal range was readily attainable in 81-82 among the best in the league. Gretzky outperformed second place by a factor of 1.44x and fifth place by 1.70x.

07-08 Goal Scoring Leaders:
1. Ovechkin - 65
2. Kovalchuk - 52
3. Iginla - 50
4. Malkin - 47
5. Boyes - 43 (lol)

In 07-08 the 40-50 goal range was readily attainable by the best in the league. Ovechkin outperformed second place by 1.25x and fifth place by 1.51x.

This is an overly simplistic analysis and just one way to skin this cat. But it seems clear to me that Gretzky's 92-goal season was more special in relation to his peers than Ovechkin's.