i love it when people say oh edm still won of a cup without wayne anyone who thinks that gretzky had nothing to do with the oilers last cup despite not being on the team needs their head examined its like the bulls winning 50 plus games when mj went to play baseball u think mj had nothing to do with the bulls success those years?
Ovechkin's 65 and Gretzky's 92
- Thread starter Filthy Dangles
- Start date
A big expansion created a kind of hockey where it became like crazy open hockey with no zone coverage at all in some games with like 15-20 goals!
The arrival of more and more euro players fixed this and already by the end of the 80's you can see a big difference in games where there is a little bit of sound positional and zone coverage.
Alot of older guys continue their career for longer when there is an expansion, alot of minor league caliber guys have a career they could of not expected without an expansion.
Imagine a hockey league without most important euro players and you can even add a lot less american players.......the nhl was basically a canadian league with 85% of players from canada who was a 24 millions people country(minus people who dont play hockey professionnally), at the time. Now the nhl is a league of all the best players of many countries and representing maybe 600 millions people....the best ones of each places. Now the NHL have 45% canadian, so there was a 40% extra canadians at the time replaced by the top players from everywhere.
So its not Datsyuk or Kopitar the opposite center but Joe Smith lol
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For the topic, i say easy Ovechkin, just to get scoring chances now is so difficult, you play the best of the best, team have all good zone coverage. In 2017 you can watch many games where top line guys couldnt even get 1 good chance of taking a quality shot, in the 80's it was too open you had at least a couple of good scoring chance per game minimum. Goaltending was weak and you had much more time to make something with the puck before having a guy in your face. They calculated that guys can skate from blue line to blue line more than 1 second faster in since 1997! So it might be a good 2 to 3 seconds compare to 1982! That means most of the time a guy had an extra 1-2 seconds to make a play, thats enormous.
The ultime test is to look at the 92 goals and put them in 3 categories, the sure goals still now, the maybe goals and the NO WAY goals but even then there is alot of Ovy's shots that didnt end up in goals in 2008 that would of went in in the beginning of the 80's for sure.
So for all this, its not even a hard decision to go with Ovy.
The ultime test is to look at the 92 goals and put them in 3 categories, the sure goals still now, the maybe goals and the NO WAY goals but even then there is alot of Ovy's shots that didnt end up in goals in 2008 that would of went in in the beginning of the 80's for sure.
So for all this, its not even a hard decision to go with Ovy.
How many goals does prime Ovechkin score against those goalies in a season? Gotta be triple digits. Every casual blueline slapper has a good chance of going in
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unknown33
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- Dec 8, 2009
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For sure. Nowadays goalies save every puck which isn't blasted with 105 mph into the corner. Like at 1:05 or 4:00.
One Winged Angel
You Can't Escape
Not just that, but the focus on sports science, training and other analytics is something he can take great advantage of.
Ask someone like Phil Esposito about conditioning back then. The majority of players weren't gym rats or doing things like Crossfit or whatever routine that someone like Ovechkin does now.
Let's see how hard Ovechkin shoots with wood.
Also, goaltenders use couch pillow sized pads now compared to back then. The game was more pure and less assisted by technologies as opposed to now.
I'll never forget the first ever time I saw Mats Sundin use a TPS Response one piece against the Rangers. He blew a slapper right by Richter and even Sam Rosen and JD were blown away by it, having seen Sundin shoot, but never like that.
The technology helps so much and the younger generation simply doesn't understand this.
TheBaxMan*
Registered User
You can't take that away from the newest generation though. They have access to the technology and that's part of it.
You can't say the original iPhone is better than the newest iPhone because the newest iPhone only has more features because it's more recent. It's a stupid argument.
I don't agree here. In certain circumstances, teams definitely watch for and treat players having historic seasons differently, similarly to playing against the cup champs. So because they treat these "outlier" players differently, I think there is truth to the idea. If you've got a guy on the ice who is on pace for 30 goals vs a guy on pace for 90 goals, teams are going to take away the shooting options for the guy on pace for 90. They might not do that for the first 45 games, but if he's on pace for 90 after 45 games then opposing teams will definitely start paying attention.
joez86
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- Jan 20, 2006
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People aren't iPhones. There were people alive 5000 years ago who were better athletes than some professional athletes today.
Plural
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Depends on the criteria. There were probably people who were stronger or faster than some hockey players for example. But today the fastest/strongest man is faster/stronger than the fastest 5000 years a go. I'm not entirely sure how much evolution starts to kick in 5000 years but nutrition/training/medicine has gone leaps and bounds since that time.
Gretzky wins he was the best of the best. If his team didn't "need" a goal he spent the night trying to get other people goals.
He is almost 1000 points ahead of anyone else who ever played. That is Ten 100 point seasons. Other then Mario I am not sure anyone else ever managed 10 seasons of 100 points or more. Never mind 10 added on to a career
He is almost 1000 points ahead of anyone else who ever played. That is Ten 100 point seasons. Other then Mario I am not sure anyone else ever managed 10 seasons of 100 points or more. Never mind 10 added on to a career
TheBaxMan*
Registered User
Better athlete doesn't mean anything though.
I'll give you an example of what I was trying to say. People claim the greatest NBA teams are the 1986 Celtics and the 1996 Bulls. Those teams were great for their time, but they would get smoked by the good teams today. The training and the play style of the players and teams today is just so much more advanced. For example, Stephen Curry alone scored more three pointers in a season than those teams did combined
Guys will counter and say that those teams would shoot threes had they played today, but my argument is that they do not play today, and that's what makes them worse.
Plural
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It's kind of a stupid argument though. I doubt anyone is trying to measure individuals/teams by putting them in a time machine and transporting them to this day.
The Roman army would be destroyed by small group of tactical air strikes, doesn't mean it's not one of the greatest armies ever. Newton wouldn't be able to use smart-phones if we transport him to this day. He's still one of the brightest minds ever.
The only way to compare people across history is to compare them to their peers within context. Nobody think Maurice Richard would be the best goalscorer in this day's league if we just time travel to get him. But he was the best goalscorer of his era, sometimes playing in watered down league (WWII for example) but also facing heavy competition and always rising to the top. He's still one of the best/greatest ever, even if in 1000 years hockey will be played with bionic men.
morehockeystats
Unusual hockey stats
People confuse best ever with greatest ever.
Magnus Carlsen is the best ever chess player. Emmanuel Lasker (1868-1941) is the greatest ever.
Alex would benefit greatly from dropping 15-20 pounds would put more in the gas tank, and we might see that speed and flair that we all know he has more often, as far as the scoring greats go, when its all said and done, he is easily top 3
In a scoring era that produced 1.5 times the points vs todays NHL... Crosby and Ovechkins numbers would easily have them both with 10+ seasons of 100 points or more with adjustment..or very close to 10 seasons with 100 points.
ujju2
Registered User
TheBaxMan*
Registered User
You also have to consider that it was easier to be great before the 2000s. For this reason, I believe current greatness always trumps past greatness.
morehockeystats
Unusual hockey stats
It wasn't easier to be "greatest", because the environment was the same for the "greatest" and the "competition".
Plural
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Fair enough. I always saw it as semantic difference but you're right, words do matter.
So if the entire team scores half a goal a game more we just give them all to one player?
Plural
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The Oilers scored more than 420 goals some seasons. Best teams these days score around 250 goals. That's bit more than half a goal per game.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
The Kings and Hawks don't play any differently in the West because of how Ovechkin plays. But in the 80s the entire NHL had to run and gun to attempt to keep up with the Oilers' 5 man rush.
It's pointless trying to compare players using eras. Apple oranges.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Ovechkin the great goal scorer compares better to Bossy the great goal scorer.
Neither player is comparable to Gretzky. When I look at Ovechkin, I look at how many goals he scored. When I look at Gretzky I look at how many goals the whole team of skaters scores.
We talk about Ovechkin's 65 goals and compare him to Gretzky...
...when Gretzky joined the Kings his on ice presence allowed Bernie Nicholls to score 70 goals!
Neither player is comparable to Gretzky. When I look at Ovechkin, I look at how many goals he scored. When I look at Gretzky I look at how many goals the whole team of skaters scores.
We talk about Ovechkin's 65 goals and compare him to Gretzky...
...when Gretzky joined the Kings his on ice presence allowed Bernie Nicholls to score 70 goals!
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