Ovechkin v Heatley

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Vlad The Impaler

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EroCaps said:
Yeah, Jagr, the "team player". What was I thinking? :shakehead

I wouldn't go that far, Ero. But I would say that there's a bit of revisionist history at work whenever Jagr is discussed. I can readily understand that the last few years have left a sour taste, especially in Washington. But he was a way more intense player before that. He played with passion and was dominant. That's on top of being one of the greatest talent I have seen.

When someone on this thread says "Player X is like Jagr, that's good but not great", I can't agree in the least with that. He's been one of the best forwards of modern hockey. That kind of stuff is further proof that people have unrealistic expectations for the young players and a total lack of perspective on current NHLers and anything that's been going before the last 5 years.

There's always a next Ron Francis, a faster Hatcher, some doofus center being projected as the next one. And now, being the next Jagr wouldn't be great. it would just be good.

There's always a bandwagon to jump on or off with some people.

I wouldn't characterize early Jagr as the ultimate old school, sacrifice-the-body kind of player. But for an offense dynamo, he offered everything you might want and then some, without being too much of a liability. I think it's too bad his career took a turn for the worse but that doesn't cancel out years of downright excellence as an extremely dynamic player with lots of enthusiasm to boot.
 

Foppa_Rules

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Everybody knows Jagr is a coach-killer. He also has emotional problems. He wrote articles in a Czech paper detailing his troubles and difficulties and problems. I think it was Don Meehan (Who happens to be Ovechkin's agent) who said that Jagr had "emotional baggage" even when he first came over here, and mentioned that Ovechkin has no such baggage. I'm not doubting Jagr's talent or his accomplishments, I'm just saying that he has emotional problems. It would be amazing if Ovechkin could accomplish what Jagr has, but I certainly hope he does not adopt Jagr's personality.
 

Foppa_Rules

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And what happened to Heatley? I thought he was a good guy before this whole episode that happened last year. I thought he was supposed to be the calm, mature kid who would have a positive impact on the brash Kovalchuk. What happened to him?
 

Levitate

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i don't think anything really "happened" to Heatley...he was just a young rich guy with a fast car...and a tradgedy happened. he was an idiot to do what he did but it doesn't necessarily mean he was a bad guy or out of control or something...i've known a lot of people who are calm, rational, good people, etc etc, but when they drive, they drive fast. sometimes bad things happen
 

Marshall

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Jagr, as a Penguin, filled my Caps-fan nightmares. He was everywhere, scoring seemingly at will, sending my favorite team to 1st round exit after 1st round exit.

Jagr, as a Cap, didn't work out at all, and -in retrospect- was a terrible move.

Either way, he's a Cap-killer.

All of that aside, Jagr, as a Penguin, was a scary, scary talent. Nothing can take that away.
 

Drake1588

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Marshall said:
Jagr, as a Penguin, filled my Caps-fan nightmares. He was everywhere, scoring seemingly at will, sending my favorite team to 1st round exit after 1st round exit.

Jagr, as a Cap, didn't work out at all, and -in retrospect- was a terrible move.

Either way, he's a Cap-killer.

All of that aside, Jagr, as a Penguin, was a scary, scary talent. Nothing can take that away.
Absolutely. If Ovechkin even comes close to having the kind of impact on the league that Jagr did in his MVP years, I will be ecstatic. There years there when Jagr was nothing short of phenomenal.
 

EroCaps

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Drake1588 said:
Absolutely. If Ovechkin even comes close to having the kind of impact on the league that Jagr did in his MVP years, I will be ecstatic. There years there when Jagr was nothing short of phenomenal.

Agreed here. IMO, Kovalchuck will be the best natural scorer of his generation. Jagr was the phenom of modern hockey, w/out a doubt. (after Mario). Ovechkin occupies a different territory as a player.
 

jcorb58

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
gretzky and lemieux did not backcheck, were not good defensively, were not physical, yet they have 16 art rosses, 11 hart trophies, 4 conn smythes, and 6 stanley cups. So you would take Heatley, Iginla, Ruutu, Ovechkin, Nash(how do we know these guys are good for winning championships anyway? how many have they won?) over Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr...3 guys dependent on offensive freedom. Interesting.

Gretzky backchecked, many times i personally with my very own eyes seen him comeback to his blue line lift a guys stick, take the puck and head up the other way. Anybody that says otherwise never seen him play. Hell, he wasnt paid to hold Fuhrs hand, but to say he was totally defencively irresponsible is crap.
 

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jcorb58 said:
Gretzky backchecked, many times i personally with my very own eyes seen him comeback to his blue line lift a guys stick, take the puck and head up the other way. Anybody that says otherwise never seen him play. Hell, he wasnt paid to hold Fuhrs hand, but to say he was totally defencively irresponsible is crap.
I watched Gretzky for years (I live in Edmonton) & while he may not have been Doug Jarvis, if he had a reasonable opprtunity to cause a difference on the backcheck, he busted his ass.
 

Mothra

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Dark Metamorphosis said:
Some of those late 90s pens teams probalby shouldnt have been in the playoffs, but Jagr carried them every season.

Agreed...... A buddy of mine (who is a Flyers fan) and I used to always talk before the season and give our predictions.....I remember at least 2 seasons where we both felt Pit had no chance...none....(of making the playoffs)....both of us saying "All they got is Jagr"....
 

EroCaps

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Mothra said:
Agreed...... A buddy of mine (who is a Flyers fan) and I used to always talk before the season and give our predictions.....I remember at least 2 seasons where we both felt Pit had no chance...none....(of making the playoffs)....both of us saying "All they got is Jagr"....

Jagr had full reign of those teams. He was a coach killer. He carried them offensively and got them through a couple rounds, against my Caps. I'm the first to applaud his talent-amazing-, but it's hard to believe how soon some have forgotton about his mood swings and general apathy. He won't lead a team to a Cup w/his game. He's Scottie Pippen.
 

Mothra

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EroCaps said:
Jagr had full reign of those teams. He was a coach killer. He carried them offensively and got them through a couple rounds, against my Caps. I'm the first to applaud his talent-amazing-, but it's hard to believe how soon some have forgotton about his mood swings and general apathy. He won't lead a team to a Cup w/his game. He's Scottie Pippen.

I dont think the Pippen analogy works......Pippen was never the best player in the world, Jagr was......you can make an arguement against Jagr in that case....but I cant see any arguement for Pippen being the best

I dont think any player could have lead some of those Pit teams to a Cup....not even 66....what jagr did do was take a team further than most expected

I dont think anyone is forgetting anything about his mood swings and anti-coach behavior.....its well known....hes just an odd guy from what I understand.
 

Atlas

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Frame it this way...

If you were building a team from scratch knowing everything you know would you start with a young Peter Forsberg or a young Jaromir Jagr?

I'd take Forsberg. He's not as skilled or entertaining to watch but he has the heart of lion. Jagr is a perfect second banana.

I'll say for the 3rd time that I am speculating here....my speculation is that Ovechkin will play in the style of Forsberg and my read on Kovalchuk is that he is a flashy Jagr-type. I'll take Ovechkin.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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JohnGalt said:
Frame it this way...

If you were building a team from scratch knowing everything you know would you start with a young Peter Forsberg or a young Jaromir Jagr?

I'd take Forsberg. He's not as skilled or entertaining to watch but he has the heart of lion. Jagr is a perfect second banana.

I'll say for the 3rd time that I am speculating here....my speculation is that Ovechkin will play in the style of Forsberg and my read on Kovalchuk is that he is a flashy Jagr-type. I'll take Ovechkin.
Forsberg has had a Stanley Cup contending team to work with for the last 10 years. That makes a huge difference. The Pens haven't been a real cup contender since 1995-96, and even then people knew that the pens D was crap. Jagr never really had the chance to lead the pens to a cup.
 

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Foppa_Rules said:
And what happened to Heatley? I thought he was a good guy before this whole episode that happened last year. I thought he was supposed to be the calm, mature kid who would have a positive impact on the brash Kovalchuk. What happened to him?
:dunce: :dunce: :dunce:
What an idiotic post.
 

Seph

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JohnGalt said:
Frame it this way...

If you were building a team from scratch knowing everything you know would you start with a young Peter Forsberg or a young Jaromir Jagr?

I'd take Forsberg. He's not as skilled or entertaining to watch but he has the heart of lion. Jagr is a perfect second banana.

I'll say for the 3rd time that I am speculating here....my speculation is that Ovechkin will play in the style of Forsberg and my read on Kovalchuk is that he is a flashy Jagr-type. I'll take Ovechkin.

Hard to gauge. Both have been considered the best players in the world at different points in their career. But I think it's easier to argue that the Avs would have won their 2 cups without Forsberg (seeing that they did win one of their cups without him) than it is to say that Pittsburg would have won their 2 cups without Jagr. For all the talk in this thread about Jagr never leading his team to a cup, well, neither has Forsberg.

Honestly, I'd take a Sakic or Yzerman over either of them. And with those two, when they came into the league, they were both rather one way. Granted, that was the time, but they improved and changed their games over their careers. And while one could sit and speculate over what prospect closest resembles either of those two, the truth is that there are no true indicators on developing those sorts of intangibles. Some players learn them, some don't.
 

Wondercarrot

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Originally Posted by Foppa_Rules
And what happened to Heatley? I thought he was a good guy before this whole episode that happened last year. I thought he was supposed to be the calm, mature kid who would have a positive impact on the brash Kovalchuk. What happened to him?



What an idiotic post.

it may be out of context but what is so idiotic about it? If im not mistaken Heatley DID in fact kill a man through pure recklessness.
He WAS expected to have a positive impact on Kovalchuk and settle the kid down, instead he becomes a poster child for stupidity and poor judgement.

don't shoot the messenger, Heatley's the idiot not Foppa (in this instance lol)
 

Levitate

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why are people comparing forsberg to jagr and saying forsberg is the better leader or more of the "cornerstone" player? sakic was always the #1 guy in colorado...forsberg was the second fiddle "skill" guy but didn't really lead his team
 

Foppa_Rules

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...but then again there was the minor drawback of Sakic signing with the Rangers when he became a RFA, forcing the Avs to match the offer and bring him back. Forsberg never did that.
 

Levitate

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what the frick does that have to do with anything?

is that just some useless little nugget of "trivia" (well known to everyone) that you stored up and thought you'd use to be clever and prove something spiffy about forsberg? big goddamn deal, sakic still was, and is, the colorado avalanche. who cares if forsberg never did that...he's also griped about retiring and such for the past several years and we never know when he's gonna quit and head back to sweden. i don't hear sakic doing that

forsberg is an amazing player, but i'd honestly take sakic over him any day

maybe i shouldn't respond to these posts when i've been drinking...someone will complain about personal attacks or something
 

EroCaps

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Mothra said:
I dont think the Pippen analogy works......Pippen was never the best player in the world, Jagr was......you can make an arguement against Jagr in that case....but I cant see any arguement for Pippen being the best

I dont think any player could have lead some of those Pit teams to a Cup....not even 66....what jagr did do was take a team further than most expected

I dont think anyone is forgetting anything about his mood swings and anti-coach behavior.....its well known....hes just an odd guy from what I understand.

You make a good point about Pippen never being the best player. Hard to find a proper comparison. I can't see Jagr matching his 100pt seasons again, if only bc w/the new league structure, if he hasn't began already, he'll be forced to committ himself to a more complete game. He did make progress while in DC, I'll give him that.
 

Levitate

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with jagr it's hard to tell...he still has the pure skill to easily put up 100 points. he did some things while on the rangers last year that were plain amazing at times, jagr of old (man it's great to see him come out of the corner with guys draped all over him, unable to knock him off the puck, then turn and fire a wicked shot right over the goalies shoulder) but...he doesn't have much of a supporting cast (though i guess we'd assume nylander will be his center and he's a good setup man)
 

Atlas

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Sakic and Yzerman are heart and soul players just like Forsberg.

One thing about Jagr though, even when he was in DC he had 2 or 3 guys hanging on him the whole game. It was ridiculous. If the refs would call the game properly Jagr might score 80 goals. But if Jagr played harder and whined less he'd get a lot of those calls.
 
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