Ovechkin v Heatley

[Drake1588]

I would rarely want to compare any prospect to a current or former NHL star/superstar, but in Ovechkin's case I think you can do so without all that much risk. He has tremendous offensive upside, both as playmaker and finisher, sound defensive instincts/discipline at an early age, a positive attitude and determination to improve, innate leadership intangibles, and a physical edge.

Either of Heatley or Kovalchuk match up with Ovechkin perfectly well in some of those areas, if not eclipsing him, but for boasting the complete package Ovechkin really is a special commodity. In every sense of the word, this is a franchise cornerstone player.

A prospect is by definition unproven in the NHL and any prospect can fail, but you get the sense that it just won't happen with this player.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

People are seriously swallowing THN's kool-aid about Heatley being a top 5 player in the NHL?

It won't last much longer.

 

[Levitate]

i dont' even like the guy but, assuming he gets himself back on the same track as he was before his accident, heatley could easily become one of the top players in the league...i wouldn't say he's top 5 yet, but every time i've seen him play i've been amazed at how dangerous he is on the ice in every way. whether it's his passing, his ability to just plain bury the puck...whatever, he can do it, and it's frightening to watch your team play against the guy. he provides more consistant "scare" moments then just about any hockey player i can think of recently.

to me he seemed like a threat every shift he was on the ice. some great players put up good numbers and all but you don't notice them every shift...heatley i remember noticing every shift.

 

[wilka91*]

I'd Take Healthy Heatley over Kovalchuk anyday.

Maybe because your avatar is a picture of Heatley.

But don't forget that Kovalchuk finished 2nd in the NHL in scoring and 1st in goals at 20 years old ... Heatley was a rookie at 20.

 

[HuskyFlames]

People are seriously swallowing THN's kool-aid about Heatley being a top 5 player in the NHL? I'd love to know which out of Brodeur, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Pronger, Iginla, and Naslund he is better than, just for starters.

Pretty sure he meant top 5 scorer in the NHL which in 3-5 years he could easily be as guys like naslung, Forsberg, Lidstrom will be gone.

 

[hfboardsuser]

I'd take Ovechkin over Kovalchuk because Ovechkin's the more complete player, both defensively and physically. As much I love seeing Kovy absolutely undress a defender and score, he'll probably be a -2 at the end of the night. Then there's Ovechkin, who can lay the beatdown on his opposition through his body (think his hit on Gonchar) and through his hands. And while he may only collect an assist on the night, he'll be + or better and have a few momentum-changing hits to his name.

As far as Heatley versus Ovechkin, I think they share a lot of similarities skill-wise. It's a difficult choice between them- either you take the flashy forward who can dominate on pure skill (Heatley) or you take the guy that can abuse the opposition on and off the scoreboard but who'll pick up less points. Only time will tell who is better, and maybe not even then- it'll just matter on what situation you want to put that player in.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Id be interested to know how many times everyone here has seen a complete Ovechkin game?

I know ive seen him play at the WJC but where is everyone watching all these games? I want to get the channel....
Im not saying he won't be great but everyone here talks as if they've seen him play every other night and i find it odd that people make statements as if they are truisms when in fact not very many people here have seen him play more than 5 or 6 times + clips of his goals.
Unless youu are living in Russia, you are guessing based on scouting reports. The rest is hype.

Dr. Sens(e) hit the nail on the head.....how many goals assists etc do you think he's going to score???
70 goals? 120pts? Based on what? That's what'd take for him to be waaaay better than 2 of the best players in the game.

Give me Kovalchuk or Heatley. AO MAY be better than both but then again he may not.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Everything here is speculation but I think Ovechkin will be a better hockey player than both Heatley and Kovalchuk. I haven't seen a lot of Ovechkin but everything that I have seen amazes me. He seems to have the rare quality of desire that many superstars don't have. The one thing you keep hearing about Ovechkin is that "he never stops".

Heatley, I think, has/had the same qualities but I'm skeptical as to if he'll be able to get his head back there again. Kovalchuk strikes me as another Jagr. That's a good thing but it's not a great thing.

so ovechkin's going to be better than jagr? it's not easy to be better than a 5 time art ross winner.

that being said, this poll is unfair to ovechkin. it's hard to argue for a prospect when he's going up against an established young superstar.

 

[Atlas]

so ovechkin's going to be better than jagr?

I love Jagr. It'd be hard for Ovechkin to match Jagr's number but I think Ovechkin brings a desire to the game that Jagr lacks. Jagr and Kovalchuk are excellent second bananas. 2 of the best ever. But whenever Jagr has had to be the leader he has failed. He's not that kind of player. I think Kovy is of the same mold.

Ovechkin on the other hand looks like a leader. Numbers and individual trophies don't mean much. The Cup is what matters and if I'm reading Ovechkin correctly that's how he plays. Something like Forsberg.

As I said it's speculation. Ovechkin might sign his first contract and get fat and lazy. But he strikes me being better than that.

 

[Chimaera]

Id be interested to know how many times everyone here has seen a complete Ovechkin game?

I know ive seen him play at the WJC but where is everyone watching all these games? I want to get the channel....
Im not saying he won't be great but everyone here talks as if they've seen him play every other night and i find it odd that people make statements as if they are truisms when in fact not very many people here have seen him play more than 5 or 6 times + clips of his goals.
Unless youu are living in Russia, you are guessing based on scouting reports. The rest is hype.

Dr. Sens(e) hit the nail on the head.....how many goals assists etc do you think he's going to score???
70 goals? 120pts? Based on what? That's what'd take for him to be waaaay better than 2 of the best players in the game.

Give me Kovalchuk or Heatley. AO MAY be better than both but then again he may not.

Well...

I saw the 2 WC games. Where he didn't get much Ice time, but did play well in some of the action. I've seen basically 80% of the highlights from last year, and a good number this year, from his RSL play. And some from WJC play.

I also watched 2-3 games through the link in this thread, for this year in RSL. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=115212

For five bucks, it was worth it for a few games. I can't understand Russian, so I'm not completely sure who's where, but I've picked up a few of the comments for Ovechkin and so forth.

Beyond that, can't say I've seen as much as I'd like. I've met him. So there is that.

But... no, I'm not an "expert", nor a "scout".

 

[King'sPawn]

I love Jagr. It'd be hard for Ovechkin to match Jagr's number but I think Ovechkin brings a desire to the game that Jagr lacks. Jagr and Kovalchuk are excellent second bananas. 2 of the best ever. But whenever Jagr has had to be the leader he has failed. He's not that kind of player. I think Kovy is of the same mold.

Leadership wise, you're right, but Jagr was amazing several years ago on the Penguins. I think we're being unfair to Ovechkin by comparing him to that.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I love Jagr. It'd be hard for Ovechkin to match Jagr's number but I think Ovechkin brings a desire to the game that Jagr lacks. Jagr and Kovalchuk are excellent second bananas. 2 of the best ever. But whenever Jagr has had to be the leader he has failed. He's not that kind of player. I think Kovy is of the same mold.

Ovechkin on the other hand looks like a leader. Numbers and individual trophies don't mean much. The Cup is what matters and if I'm reading Ovechkin correctly that's how he plays. Something like Forsberg.

As I said it's speculation. Ovechkin might sign his first contract and get fat and lazy. But he strikes me being better than that.

Jagr made up for his lack of leadership by scoring 120 points a year. Sundin is considered a good leader, but no one would take him over jagr in their primes. I think Jagr's offensive ability was just too high for you to peg ovechkin above him based on leadership ability.

 

[EroCaps]

Jagr made up for his lack of leadership by scoring 120 points a year. Sundin is considered a good leader, but no one would take him over jagr in their primes. I think Jagr's offensive ability was just too high for you to peg ovechkin above him based on leadership ability.

'Kay, then tack on physical play, defensive responsibility, and team chemistry.

Would you take Jagr over Iginla, Neely, or Messier in their prime?

Jagr wasn't just missing leadership qualities, he was a cancer. Sadly. He had a couple very good years in Pitt w/out Lemieux, but if you remember, he was whining almost the entire time, at a point when he'd already won a couple Cups.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

'Kay, then tack on physical play, defensive responsibility, and team chemistry.

Would you take Jagr over Iginla, Neely, or Messier in their prime?

Jagr wasn't just missing leadership qualities, he was a cancer. Sadly. He had a couple very good years in Pitt w/out Lemieux, but if you remember, he was whining almost the entire time, at a point when he'd already won a couple Cups.

Whining the entire time? Definitely not. Don't forget Pittsburgh didn't miss the playoffs once while Jagr was on the team. It's not just because of Lemieux either, as he pretty much sat out 5 seasons in the 90s. Some of those late 90s pens teams probalby shouldnt have been in the playoffs, but Jagr carried them every season. It's amazing what an about face Jagr pulled. If you watch his games from the mid and late 90s, he was always trying hard and playing like he cared. He wasn't a whining cancer until the 2000-01 season. He was beloved in pittsburgh until then.

I would take a 1996 Jagr over Iginla and Neely pretty easily. Offensively he was worlds ahead of both. Jagr was considered the best player in the world for a full 4 or 5 years. I don't know how you can say ovechkin will be better. Would you take Jere Lehtinen over Jagr? He's defensively responsible, team player, good leader. Mario Lemieux wasn't exactly physical either. Would you take Ovechkin over him? I think the gap in offensive talent between Jagr and Ovechkin is too big to claim Ovechkin will be better based on defense, leadership. I think your memories of Jagr are clouded by his time in washington.

 

[Paxon]

I would take a 1996 Jagr over Iginla and Neely pretty easily. Offensively he was worlds ahead of both. Jagr was considered the best player in the world for a full 4 or 5 years. I don't know how you can say ovechkin will be better. Would you take Jere Lehtinen over Jagr? He's defensively responsible, team player, good leader. Mario Lemieux wasn't exactly physical either. Would you take Ovechkin over him? I think the gap in offensive talent between Jagr and Ovechkin is too big to claim Ovechkin will be better based on defense, leadership. I think your memories of Jagr are clouded by his time in washington.

I'd love to see Jagr turn things around and tear the league a new one next year just to remind people who the hell he is. It won't happen, but I'd love that.

 

[EroCaps]

Whining the entire time? Definitely not. Don't forget Pittsburgh didn't miss the playoffs once while Jagr was on the team. It's not just because of Lemieux either, as he pretty much sat out 5 seasons in the 90s. Some of those late 90s pens teams probalby shouldnt have been in the playoffs, but Jagr carried them every season. It's amazing what an about face Jagr pulled. If you watch his games from the mid and late 90s, he was always trying hard and playing like he cared. He wasn't a whining cancer until the 2000-01 season. He was beloved in pittsburgh until then.

I would take a 1996 Jagr over Iginla and Neely pretty easily. Offensively he was worlds ahead of both. Jagr was considered the best player in the world for a full 4 or 5 years. I don't know how you can say ovechkin will be better. Would you take Jere Lehtinen over Jagr? He's defensively responsible, team player, good leader. Mario Lemieux wasn't exactly physical either. Would you take Ovechkin over him? I think the gap in offensive talent between Jagr and Ovechkin is too big to claim Ovechkin will be better based on defense, leadership. I think your memories of Jagr are clouded by his time in washington.

Oh please. Don't compare Lehtinen to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has world-class offensive talent to go along w/a great all-around game.

Jagr never singelhandedly captained a Stanley Cup team. Watching and defending the guy carefully for over two seasons, I'm willing to bet his success in Pitt had as much to do w/the fact he was an estbalished city hero and comfortabily enmeshed w/the team before any real single responsibility was put on him. He could have been a top 3-5 player of all time had he rounded out his game early on and found his offense w/in a team system. It was never his thing, and don't pretend it was. I was a fan of the Caps during the mid-late 90s and watched Jagr take us apart, but I never felt like he led his team. He "carried them offensively", and sparked comebacks w/his ability to score and make plays. There's a difference. The teams he plays for revolved around his production, and not vice versa. When he's forced to play w/in the boundaries of a team concept, his stats drop noticeably.

If he didn't *care* for whatever reason in DC, all the more revealing. He doesn't take hits to make plays, give them, backcheck w/tenacity (thought he did improve late w/Washington). The Rangers were better off w/out him.

I'd take a guy like Heatley, Iginla, Ruutu, Ovechkin, Nash, who contend for a few Art Ross/Richard trophies, and consistently push 90s pts playing a team game over a guy dependent on creative freedom. It doesn't win Championships.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Oh please. Don't compare Lehtinen to Ovechkin. Ovechkin has world-class offensive talent to go along w/a great all-around game.

Jagr never singelhandedly captained a Stanley Cup team. Watching and defending the guy carefully for over two seasons, I'm willing to bet his success in Pitt had as much to do w/the fact he was an estbalished city hero and comfortabily enmeshed w/the team before any real single responsibility was put on him. He could have been a top 3-5 player of all time had he rounded out his game early on and found his offense w/in a team system. It was never his thing, and don't pretend it was. I was a fan of the Caps during the mid-late 90s and watched Jagr take us apart, but I never felt like he led his team. He "carried them offensively", and sparked comebacks w/his ability to score and make plays. There's a difference. The teams he plays for revolved around his production, and not vice versa. When he's forced to play w/in the boundaries of a team concept, his stats drop noticeably.

If he didn't *care* for whatever reason in DC, all the more revealing. He doesn't take hits to make plays, give them, backcheck w/tenacity (thought he did improve late w/Washington). The Rangers were better off w/out him.

I'd take a guy like Heatley, Iginla, Ruutu, Ovechkin, Nash, who contend for a few Art Ross/Richard trophies, and consistently push 90s pts playing a team game over a guy dependent on creative freedom. It doesn't win Championships.

gretzky and lemieux did not backcheck, were not good defensively, were not physical, yet they have 16 art rosses, 11 hart trophies, 4 conn smythes, and 6 stanley cups. So you would take Heatley, Iginla, Ruutu, Ovechkin, Nash(how do we know these guys are good for winning championships anyway? how many have they won?) over Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr...3 guys dependent on offensive freedom. Interesting.

 

[Epsilon]

Jagr never singelhandedly captained a Stanley Cup team.

Neither did Iginla or Neely, two guys you mentioned. Jagr at least was an important piece of two Cup champions. He was also a leader on the 1998 olympic champions. And it's hard to say that even Messier "single-handedly" captained a Cup team when Leetch, Richter, Zubov, and several other all-world talents were on the 1994 Rangers (and don't even try to claim the 1990 Oilers qualify).

Watching and defending the guy carefully for over two seasons, I'm willing to bet his success in Pitt had as much to do w/the fact he was an estbalished city hero and comfortabily enmeshed w/the team before any real single responsibility was put on him. He could have been a top 3-5 player of all time had he rounded out his game early on and found his offense w/in a team system. It was never his thing, and don't pretend it was. I was a fan of the Caps during the mid-late 90s and watched Jagr take us apart, but I never felt like he led his team. He "carried them offensively", and sparked comebacks w/his ability to score and make plays. There's a difference. The teams he plays for revolved around his production, and not vice versa. When he's forced to play w/in the boundaries of a team concept, his stats drop noticeably.

Ridiculous revisionist history based totally on his years in Washington. One thing I distinctly remember about Jagr was when he delivered one of the guttiest performances I've ever seen, playing for over an hour of ice time on basically one leg during a 2-1 5 OT loss to the Flyers.

If he didn't *care* for whatever reason in DC, all the more revealing. He doesn't take hits to make plays, give them, backcheck w/tenacity (thought he did improve late w/Washington). The Rangers were better off w/out him.

By the end of the season he was the only guy on the Rangers putting in any sort of effort. But I guess you are right on this point, because without Jagr they would have had a better shot at a bottom 5 position and a chance to move up for one of the Big Two.

I'd take a guy like Heatley,

One-way offensive player with no playoff success.

Iginla,

Two good seasons and one decent playoff run.

Ruutu,

40 point scorer with no playoff experience.

Ovechkin,

Has never even played in the NHL. Russian team led by Grigorenko, Trubachev, Taratukhin, etc. won a gold, team led by Ovechkin and Malkin finished out of the medals.

Nash,

One-way offensive player who led the league in negative plus-minus; and another one with no playoff experience.

who contend for a few Art Ross/Richard trophies, and consistently push 90s pts playing a team game over a guy dependent on creative freedom. It doesn't win Championships.

Jagr has won two Stanley Cups and an olympic gold medal. That's more hardware than all the guys you named put together.

 

[Levitate]

again this is why i hate these questions...people are saying ovechkin is a great leader, superb defensively, awesome offensively, amazing teammate...like he's been playing for years in the NHL and been a superstar

the kid has never played one second of NHL hockey...it may be a good bet that he will become a very good player, but all this talk about how amazing he is at this point is just BS. how do we really know he's gonna be all those things at the NHL level? is he gonna come in and take over the caps lockerroom, get the vets in shape, rally the other young players? manage to be the best defensive player on the team while racking up huge point totals? be the consumate teammate and the best captain in the NHL? seems like from some of the things i read on here, people already think he's done that...

i say you have to give ovechkin at LEAST 2 years in the NHL before we can truthfully have an accurate opinion on his game and how it compares to other NHL players games.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I'd love to see Jagr turn things around and tear the league a new one next year just to remind people who the hell he is. It won't happen, but I'd love that.

As would I. He left Pittsburgh on a sour note, but I'm still a huge fan of his.

 

[Doomsday Device]

Ridiculous revisionist history based totally on his years in Washington. One thing I distinctly remember about Jagr was when he delivered one of the guttiest performances I've ever seen, playing for over an hour of ice time on basically one leg during a 2-1 5 OT loss to the Flyers.

Jagr never gets enough credit on these boards for how he played when he was with the Penguins. After Lemieux's retirement, he and Hasek were definitely the most dominant players in the league. The thing I remember about Jagr is when he came back from that groin injury in the first round against the Devils in 1999. First game back with Pittsburgh down 3-2 in the series, he scores the game tier with 2 1/2 minutes left in the game and then the winner in overtime to send it to game 7.

 

[EroCaps]

Iginla led his team to a SC birth. "single-handedly" was a bit strong.

I wouldn't call what Jagr did *gutsy*. He's one of the greatest scorers to ever play, and he's been known to be clutch. BUT- He's a primadonna. As if this wasn't established by almost every NHL GM. When he was in Washington this was not only obvious, but it was driven into our heads like a nail by hundreds of fans just like yourself. Every hockey analyst or personality would bash the guy's attitude on a nightly basis. It was firmly established by the hockey world that he was one of the largest wastes of talent the league had ever seen, purely due to the fact that he could do so much more.

It didn't happen overnight. Of course it was brewing in Pitt. He was a grown man.

Don't act like I'm pulling it out of thin air.

Oh, and btw- the Rangers' were one game out of the playoffs when the acquired Jagr, and finished far worse. If he was the sort of player you're painting him out to be, that would NOT have happened, fire sale or no.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Ridiculous revisionist history based totally on his years in Washington.

Completely agree with you.

 

[wilka91*]

Completely agree with you.

Me too.

 

[Levitate]

Oh, and btw- the Rangers' were one game out of the playoffs when the acquired Jagr, and finished far worse. If he was the sort of player you're painting him out to be, that would NOT have happened, fire sale or no.

if you watched the rangers or knew anything about them last year, you'd know that jagr had no chance to save their season. he played pretty well, could have done better with a more coherent team, but averaged about a point per game with the rangers...but that really just wasn't the problem, he couldn't fix what was broken with the rangers, no one player could