Ovechkin or Havlat

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EroCaps

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bert said:
No doubt he will score but he is a rookie and teams will easily be able to key on him. He may get some UFA help and he also may not we dont know but right now he has nothing to work with other than Semin.

Murray is on record of saying that Ottawa will be playing a much more wide open offensive style. He also said that Havlat will be moved to left wing and play on the first line, he has played left on team Czech multiple times. Jaques just never tried it for more than 10 minutes of one period (he never really tried anything).

Whoever suggests that a player that is 23 playin on the third line has topped out in production has absolutely no idea what he is talking about im sorry. Especially when the league is going to be opened up.

Havlat this year, but Ovechkin not far behind. Ovechkin should get UFA help. The Caps will be weak, but the new NHL should make things competitive.
 

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Zamboner said:
10x?

I hope you're exaggerating...

so he is 10x better at shooting, stick handling, passing, skating? Can't wait to see him then... he should probably get about 200 pts his rookie year

I'd say their offensive games will be very similar. Ovechkin will rule, by a fair margin (not 10x) in defensive and physical play though.
a yeah, I was exaggerating a bit...but I was trying to make a point of how much better I think Ovechkin will be, compared to Havlat.

Havlat is a real good player, but I think that Ovechkin will be at the "super star" level sooner rather then later.
 

me2

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bert said:
Whoever suggests that a player that is 23 playin on the third line has topped out in production has absolutely no idea what he is talking about im sorry. Especially when the league is going to be opened up.


On that we agree. Havlat has got at least 20 points more potential in him as he moves up the lines and gets prime ice time.
 

WVP

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bert said:
Murray is on record of saying that Ottawa will be playing a much more wide open offensive style.
I'd like to see that.
 

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I think Havlat has plateaued. I think Ovechkin will be a big impact,and I think he is physically the more gifted between the two. Ovechkin could win a scoring title,Havlat not as likely

Havlat has plateaued? Come on, he plays on an extremely deep Ottawa team that has him as the third right winger on the team. There's talk of converting him to the left wing, but they have tried that before and it didn't work.

Havlat needs to get out of Ottawa and get an opportunity to play on a top two line somewhere. The guy is a world class RW. I know we need wingers in Philadelphia and I would offer up Gagne for him. However, I don't think Ottawa would even consider that.
 

Sting

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I love Havlat's offensive game. The way he creates stuff and has the other team scrambling. Like I've said before, he's Ottawa's best offensive player in my opinion.

As for more points, Havlat will have more next year I'm sure...maybe the year after too. But there's no way any 3rd right winger on a team can compete with a guy one team will be completely building around. They will set him up, play him as much as possible, and give him every single opportunity to score. Thus Ovechkin by all means should be getting more points than the majority of the NHL in a few years.
 

bert

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FlyersFan10 said:
Havlat has plateaued? Come on, he plays on an extremely deep Ottawa team that has him as the third right winger on the team. There's talk of converting him to the left wing, but they have tried that before and it didn't work.

Havlat needs to get out of Ottawa and get an opportunity to play on a top two line somewhere. The guy is a world class RW. I know we need wingers in Philadelphia and I would offer up Gagne for him. However, I don't think Ottawa would even consider that.

You've got your self a deal.
 

mercury

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That would help Ottawa out tremendously, and I am not sure if it's a good move for the Flyers. Havlat is incredibly talented, but the Flyers need left wingers, just as Ottawa does. We have Roenick, Knuble, Radivojevic, Kapanen, Stevenson, and (possibly) Sharp to play the right side now. At LW, we have Gagne, Somik, Brashear, and Fedoruk. Ugh. We'd have no one worthwhile on the left side if Gagne were dealt. If Havlat were to make the switch to LW, wouldn't Ottawa just want to keep him? That being said, the deal might be worth it just because I am sure a lot of teams would value Havlat more than Gagne, so we might be able to make another deal to add more talent.
 

bert

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Kapanen and Knuble both play left as well as right wing. Im sure Jr wouldnt have any trouble playing left wing either. lots of possibilities with Carter and Richards coming up aswell.
 

Sens4Cup

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FlyersFan10 said:
Havlat has plateaued? Come on, he plays on an extremely deep Ottawa team that has him as the third right winger on the team. There's talk of converting him to the left wing, but they have tried that before and it didn't work.

Havlat needs to get out of Ottawa and get an opportunity to play on a top two line somewhere. The guy is a world class RW. I know we need wingers in Philadelphia and I would offer up Gagne for him. However, I don't think Ottawa would even consider that.

There's no way Havlat is gonna get traded for Gagne. Havlat has improved each season, while Gagne hasn't really produced since 2001-02. If you wanted Havlat as a Flyer you'd have to start with at least Gagne and Richards, or Gagne and Nittymaki, or Gagne and Handzus. Gagne's a good player but his trade value is quite a bit lower than Havlat's IMO.
 

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I knew that Kapanen could play the left (he can play any position except goal, apparently; he acquitted himself very well as a defenseman last year). If Knuble can play the left, too, then we could be OK. Philly's roster is going to be way different, both in personnel and lines/defensive pairings.
 

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Sens4Cup said:
There's no way Havlat is gonna get traded for Gagne. Havlat has improved each season, while Gagne hasn't really produced since 2001-02. If you wanted Havlat as a Flyer you'd have to start with at least Gagne and Richards, or Gagne and Nittymaki, or Gagne and Handzus. Gagne's a good player but his trade value is quite a bit lower than Havlat's IMO.
First of all, I don't think the Flyers would ever want Havlat after that move he pulled last season and then served that penalty in the brawl game.

Secondly, Gagne is a better all around hockey player than Havlat. He is considerably more versatile and when asked to be a scorer he can do that better than most players in the league. With top line icetime that he will receive next season, he's likely to score 35+ goals and probably 70 points while playing very good two way hockey. He can be an elite checker or an elite scorer and Havlat is likely to never be able to do that. The flyers would never trade Gagne for a one dimensional (admitedly, he's improving his defense very slowly), reckless player like Havlat. Havlat would probably get very little ice time under Hitch and fit very poorly into the flyers system. In addition, he'd be poorly received after the stuff he pulled against the flyers last season.
 

bert

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Gags1288 said:
First of all, I don't think the Flyers would ever want Havlat after that move he pulled last season and then served that penalty in the brawl game.

Secondly, Gagne is a better all around hockey player than Havlat. He is considerably more versatile and when asked to be a scorer he can do that better than most players in the league. With top line icetime that he will receive next season, he's likely to score 35+ goals and probably 70 points while playing very good two way hockey. He can be an elite checker or an elite scorer and Havlat is likely to never be able to do that. The flyers would never trade Gagne for a one dimensional (admitedly, he's improving his defense very slowly), reckless player like Havlat. Havlat would probably get very little ice time under Hitch and fit very poorly into the flyers system. In addition, he'd be poorly received after the stuff he pulled against the flyers last season.

Well first of all your name is Gags and while alot of what you say is true the fact that Gagne is prolbably your favorite player and that you also appear to hate Ottawa has defenitely blinded your view of the player that Havlat is.

You dont think he will get ice time? Honestly? He got icetime under Jaques Martin.

Did you think it was Havlats call to serve the penalty?

Did you want players like Gagne or Kapanen to go out and fight?

Feel free to clarify me on these views.

While what Havlat did was way out of line atleast he plays with and edge its part of what makes him a good player. What else can a skilled player that is taking all the extra abuse that philly is giving him do to stick up for himself? That defenitely wasnt the right way to handle it but had Jaques handled the situation correctly it never would have got to that.

Yes Gagne is the better two way player but the flyers have lots of guys that are great two way players and dont really have a game breaking threat up front. Havlat is that kindof player.

Ottawa lacks two way forwards that can play on scoring lines so it is a deal that works for both teams.

Ofcourse rivals never trade big time players like Havlat and Gagne for one another but I really do think it is a trade that would make both teams better.
 

Everest

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Just goes to show you what Ovechkin is in for...he can't even stay in a thread,let alone a game yet!
The Senators (and 29 other NHL teams) would love to have Gagne. Would they trade Havlat for him? Probably not. Are the two reasonably compareable? Yes.
Has Gagne layed down more Big Games" than Havlat? Yes. :propeller
 

Gags1288

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bert said:
Well first of all your name is Gags and while alot of what you say is true the fact that Gagne is prolbably your favorite player and that you also appear to hate Ottawa has defenitely blinded your view of the player that Havlat is.

You dont think he will get ice time? Honestly? He got icetime under Jaques Martin.

Did you think it was Havlats call to serve the penalty?

Did you want players like Gagne or Kapanen to go out and fight?

Feel free to clarify me on these views.

While what Havlat did was way out of line atleast he plays with and edge its part of what makes him a good player. What else can a skilled player that is taking all the extra abuse that philly is giving him do to stick up for himself? That defenitely wasnt the right way to handle it but had Jaques handled the situation correctly it never would have got to that.

Yes Gagne is the better two way player but the flyers have lots of guys that are great two way players and dont really have a game breaking threat up front. Havlat is that kindof player.

Ottawa lacks two way forwards that can play on scoring lines so it is a deal that works for both teams.

Ofcourse rivals never trade big time players like Havlat and Gagne for one another but I really do think it is a trade that would make both teams better.
I'll clarify on all of my views.

Gagne is one of my favorite players and I'm obviously somewhat biased, as is every poster on these boards (though I don't think i'm as biased as most)

I honestly don't think Hitch would play Havlat very much. Hitch has benched many players because they haven't played defense first and he has gone out of his way to make guys like Amonte play good defense or not play at all. Havlat would have to adapt his game to play under Hitch. Unless of course Hitchcock changes his philosophy, which he has said that he will.

Was it Havlat's call to serve the penalty? who knows. I do know that Havlat was the sole reason that the brawl occured and he should have been accountable for his actions. And i'm not asking him to fight a Brashear or a Fedoruk, but if Recchi challenged him I think that would have been fair considering his actions. He's also very reckless with his stick and has been since he came into the league. If Gagne or Kapanen turned around and swipped at someone with their stick, I would expect them to be accountable.

The flyers are very week on the wing (especially left wing) and don't have any player as talented offensively as Gagne and as solid defensively. I guess JR would be the closest thing as he moves to wing, but he isn't nearly as good a two way player as Gagne. Right now the flyers top 4 wingers are Gagne/JR/Knuble/UFA/who knows.

I happen to think that Gagne is capable of being a game breaker. I'm not going to claim he's as talented offensively as Havlat is because he is not. However, in a 20 game stretch last season where he saw 1st line ice time and was asked to score, he did score 12 times in that stretch. He also did score 33 goals as a 21 year old. I do think that Gagne is very capable of scoring 35 or more goals in a season and playing his usual 2 way game if he's given the proper linemates/icetime. Under those circumstances, I don't think the extra 10-15 points that Havlat might give you would make up for all the things that Gagne does better than Havlat.

P.S.- I really wanted Havlat out of that draft. I remember the flyers having arguments at the table before the pick. The head European scout wanted Havlat, Simon Nolet wanted the flyers to pick Oulette and they went with him. What could have been...
 

DaveMatthew

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Gags1288 said:
I'll clarify on all of my views.

Gagne is one of my favorite players and I'm obviously somewhat biased, as is every poster on these boards (though I don't think i'm as biased as most)

I honestly don't think Hitch would play Havlat very much. Hitch has benched many players because they haven't played defense first and he has gone out of his way to make guys like Amonte play good defense or not play at all. Havlat would have to adapt his game to play under Hitch. Unless of course Hitchcock changes his philosophy, which he has said that he will.

Was it Havlat's call to serve the penalty? who knows. I do know that Havlat was the sole reason that the brawl occured and he should have been accountable for his actions. And i'm not asking him to fight a Brashear or a Fedoruk, but if Recchi challenged him I think that would have been fair considering his actions. He's also very reckless with his stick and has been since he came into the league. If Gagne or Kapanen turned around and swipped at someone with their stick, I would expect them to be accountable.

The flyers are very week on the wing (especially left wing) and don't have any player as talented offensively as Gagne and as solid defensively. I guess JR would be the closest thing as he moves to wing, but he isn't nearly as good a two way player as Gagne. Right now the flyers top 4 wingers are Gagne/JR/Knuble/UFA/who knows.

I happen to think that Gagne is capable of being a game breaker. I'm not going to claim he's as talented offensively as Havlat is because he is not. However, in a 20 game stretch last season where he saw 1st line ice time and was asked to score, he did score 12 times in that stretch. He also did score 33 goals as a 21 year old. I do think that Gagne is very capable of scoring 35 or more goals in a season and playing his usual 2 way game if he's given the proper linemates/icetime. Under those circumstances, I don't think the extra 10-15 points that Havlat might give you would make up for all the things that Gagne does better than Havlat.

P.S.- I really wanted Havlat out of that draft. I remember the flyers having arguments at the table before the pick. The head European scout wanted Havlat, Simon Nolet wanted the flyers to pick Oulette and they went with him. What could have been...

First off, Martin Havlat got ice time playing for Jacques Martin. Jacques Martin!!! A more defense first coach than Ken Hitchcock. He is the guy who refused to play Jason Spezza because of his defense. If Martin Havlat can get ice time under Jacques Martin, he can definately get ice time under Ken Hitchcock. Sure the guy will never be a candidate for the Selke, but he is not horrible. The kid has learned to be responsible playing under Martin.

The whole Havlat incident was blown way out of proportion. Recchi was tugging on him from behind, and havlat turned around with his stick chest high, and since Recchi is 5'8 and was not upright like Havlat, it hit him in the face. It wasn't this enormously dirty play that you Flyer fans are making it out to be.
And of course Jacques Martin didn't want Havlat to go fight. Why would any coach want one of his best offensive players to risk injury by sending him out during a brawl. It was a smart decision by Martin.

And what Havlat lacks in defense, he makes up in offense. Gagne has never been close to a PPG, and Havlat has already done it once. Havlat's also a year younger. Would you take Shane Doan over Ilya Kovalchuk because Doan is the better two way player?
 

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TheCoach said:
First off, Martin Havlat got ice time playing for Jacques Martin. Jacques Martin!!! A more defense first coach than Ken Hitchcock. He is the guy who refused to play Jason Spezza because of his defense. If Martin Havlat can get ice time under Jacques Martin, he can definately get ice time under Ken Hitchcock. Sure the guy will never be a candidate for the Selke, but he is not horrible. The kid has learned to be responsible playing under Martin.

The whole Havlat incident was blown way out of proportion. Recchi was tugging on him from behind, and havlat turned around with his stick chest high, and since Recchi is 5'8 and was not upright like Havlat, it hit him in the face. It wasn't this enormously dirty play that you Flyer fans are making it out to be.
And of course Jacques Martin didn't want Havlat to go fight. Why would any coach want one of his best offensive players to risk injury by sending him out during a brawl. It was a smart decision by Martin.

And what Havlat lacks in defense, he makes up in offense. Gagne has never been close to a PPG, and Havlat has already done it once. Havlat's also a year younger. Would you take Shane Doan over Ilya Kovalchuk because Doan is the better two way player?
I'm not sure there is a more defense first coach than Ken Hitchcock, but I understand your point that Jacques is probably comparable in that regard. I do think there's a bit of a difference between sitting a 19 year old Jason Spezza as opposed to Hitch limiting the ice time of established players like Tony Amonte and John Leclair until they start to buy into defense first hockey. At any rate, I still believe Havlat would have to alter the way he plays to play consistent minutes under Hitch. The flyers offense is based primarily off their ability to counter attack and all 3 forwards are required to back check like crazy. Jeremy Roenick was forced to become a very good two way center under Hitch, much like Modano was and much like Gagne is becoming (obviously as a winger).

As for the incident, Havlat has always been reckless with his stick. Recchi was doing nothing that doesn't happen 20 times a game. Havlat turned around and his recklessness resulted in Recchi (who is 5'10" btw) being hit in the face. Ottawa fans see it one way, Flyers fans obviously a different way. I don't think most people would have been upset if it was an isolated incident, but as you know Havlat has never been one to be careful with his stick.

As for Martin's thinking in the brawl, him sending Havlat to serve the penalty only escalated it. He sent out Spezza in the brawl without being concerned about him being injured in a fight. He sent out other elite Senators without being worried about them so i'm not sure I buy that, but I understand your thinking.

As for Gagne's offensive production, he hasn't been asked to be a scoring forward since he was 21. At that age he put up 33 goals, 33 assists in 79 games. We'll have to find out how he puts together his defensive ability with his offensive ability, but I suspect he'll be able to score 70 points or more (35/35) while still being an elite defensive forward if he's given the opportunity and the linemates. I personally think Gagne's a selky caliber defensive forward (as I'm sure many flyers fans who get to watch him every day believe) and Havlat's offensive ability doesn't make up for it.

I know I took shots at Havlat in my initial post, but I do really like him as a player. I do like the fact that he's feisty (obviously I don't like the extra-curricular stuff) and you can't help but appreciate his offensive ability. I just prefer Gagne in the flyers system.

As for the initial question, I think Havlat will continue to produce more and more offensively and it will take Ovechkin until he's at least 23 or 24 to equal or surpass Havlat's offensive ability. That doesn't mean he won't be a better all around player by the age of 21 or 22.
 

Sens4Cup

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Gags1288 said:
I'm not sure there is a more defense first coach than Ken Hitchcock, but I understand your point that Jacques is probably comparable in that regard. I do think there's a bit of a difference between sitting a 19 year old Jason Spezza as opposed to Hitch limiting the ice time of established players like Tony Amonte and John Leclair until they start to buy into defense first hockey. At any rate, I still believe Havlat would have to alter the way he plays to play consistent minutes under Hitch. The flyers offense is based primarily off their ability to counter attack and all 3 forwards are required to back check like crazy. Jeremy Roenick was forced to become a very good two way center under Hitch, much like Modano was and much like Gagne is becoming (obviously as a winger).

As for the incident, Havlat has always been reckless with his stick. Recchi was doing nothing that doesn't happen 20 times a game. Havlat turned around and his recklessness resulted in Recchi (who is 5'10" btw) being hit in the face. Ottawa fans see it one way, Flyers fans obviously a different way. I don't think most people would have been upset if it was an isolated incident, but as you know Havlat has never been one to be careful with his stick.

As for Martin's thinking in the brawl, him sending Havlat to serve the penalty only escalated it. He sent out Spezza in the brawl without being concerned about him being injured in a fight. He sent out other elite Senators without being worried about them so i'm not sure I buy that, but I understand your thinking.

As for Gagne's offensive production, he hasn't been asked to be a scoring forward since he was 21. At that age he put up 33 goals, 33 assists in 79 games. We'll have to find out how he puts together his defensive ability with his offensive ability, but I suspect he'll be able to score 70 points or more (35/35) while still being an elite defensive forward if he's given the opportunity and the linemates. I personally think Gagne's a selky caliber defensive forward (as I'm sure many flyers fans who get to watch him every day believe) and Havlat's offensive ability doesn't make up for it.

I know I took shots at Havlat in my initial post, but I do really like him as a player. I do like the fact that he's feisty (obviously I don't like the extra-curricular stuff) and you can't help but appreciate his offensive ability. I just prefer Gagne in the flyers system.

As for the initial question, I think Havlat will continue to produce more and more offensively and it will take Ovechkin until he's at least 23 or 24 to equal or surpass Havlat's offensive ability. That doesn't mean he won't be a better all around player by the age of 21 or 22.

Alright in terms of Gagne being the offensive dynamo you claim he is, given that he got 16:23 of icetime last season and produced 45 points in 80 games, I think you'll have some trouble disproving my claim that he hasn't produced much in the way of points since 2001-02. Havlat meanwhile produced 68 points in 68 games, with 16:46 of icetime. The reason there has been lots of trade talk with Gagne is that he doesn't produce well in a defensive system. In 01-02, Barber was coaching in a more offensive style, and once Hitch came in, Gagne's been nowhere to be found. Havlat is younger, faster, and more skilled, and produces consistently, while you talk about a stretch where Gagne produced 12 goals in 20 games. So that means for the other 60 games he produced 12 goals. I mean if that's not top end sniper numbers right there, I don't know what is. Gagne needs to be traded to a team not where he'll get more icetime but where he can play his game, and get his confidence back. Or he just needs to be more determined and work harder in Philly. Otherwise Philly's youth movement which seems to be approaching will move along without him.
 

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Sens4Cup said:
Alright in terms of Gagne being the offensive dynamo you claim he is, given that he got 16:23 of icetime last season and produced 45 points in 80 games, I think you'll have some trouble disproving my claim that he hasn't produced much in the way of points since 2001-02. Havlat meanwhile produced 68 points in 68 games, with 16:46 of icetime. The reason there has been lots of trade talk with Gagne is that he doesn't produce well in a defensive system. In 01-02, Barber was coaching in a more offensive style, and once Hitch came in, Gagne's been nowhere to be found. Havlat is younger, faster, and more skilled, and produces consistently, while you talk about a stretch where Gagne produced 12 goals in 20 games. So that means for the other 60 games he produced 12 goals. I mean if that's not top end sniper numbers right there, I don't know what is. Gagne needs to be traded to a team not where he'll get more icetime but where he can play his game, and get his confidence back. Or he just needs to be more determined and work harder in Philly. Otherwise Philly's youth movement which seems to be approaching will move along without him.
You obviously don't know much about the flyers or Gagne's position on the team. Obviously, if he was playing on one of the top 2 scoring lines and being asked to be a scorer and all he could produce was 45 points in 80 games than that would be extremely disappointing. However, the fact that he played on a line with Primeau and Kapanen and their primary job was to shut down the other teams top line (and they did that as well as any line in the NHL) than 45 points from a great defensive forward isn't too bad. The 12 goal stretch was said only to illustrate his ability to score goals when he's asked to play on a scoring line.

Havlat is more skilled than Gagne, but definately not a faster skater. And even though Havlat might be more consistantly offensively (which i'm not sure he is, again Gagne wasn't asked to score), Gagne brings a lot to the table even when he's not scoring. That's not the case with Havlat. Also, I guarantee a solid portion of Gagne's ice time was spent on the penalty kill, likely significantly more than Havlat. Gagne also didn't receive premium PP ice time last season. Gagne's confidence is fine and his ability is right where it needs to be. As a 1st line winger this up coming season he's likely to produce better than ever while adding a great defensive game and I'll take that over Havlat on the Flyers.
 

bonzaiman

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Ovechkin or Havlat?

You can't really compare Ovechkin and Havlat, because they are both different types of players. Ovechkin is more of a hybrid, part power forward, part sniper, , and part defensive specialist. Havlat on the other hand is a pure goal scorer , offensive force. Looking down the line I'd expect Havlat to have more points then Ovechkin and to be a slightly larger offensive force, but Ovechkin will be far and away a more complete player. Ovechkin's plus/minus will be better, and perhaps he might have more goals, not sure. Hard to choose, both are such great players! You can't lose , whichever you pick.
 

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Gags1288 said:
You obviously don't know much about the flyers or Gagne's position on the team. Obviously, if he was playing on one of the top 2 scoring lines and being asked to be a scorer and all he could produce was 45 points in 80 games than that would be extremely disappointing. However, the fact that he played on a line with Primeau and Kapanen and their primary job was to shut down the other teams top line (and they did that as well as any line in the NHL) than 45 points from a great defensive forward isn't too bad. The 12 goal stretch was said only to illustrate his ability to score goals when he's asked to play on a scoring line.

Havlat is more skilled than Gagne, but definately not a faster skater. And even though Havlat might be more consistantly offensively (which i'm not sure he is, again Gagne wasn't asked to score), Gagne brings a lot to the table even when he's not scoring. That's not the case with Havlat. Also, I guarantee a solid portion of Gagne's ice time was spent on the penalty kill, likely significantly more than Havlat. Gagne also didn't receive premium PP ice time last season. Gagne's confidence is fine and his ability is right where it needs to be. As a 1st line winger this up coming season he's likely to produce better than ever while adding a great defensive game and I'll take that over Havlat on the Flyers.


And as a Flyers fan, I can honestly say that Gagne's talent is being put to waste while he plays on the checking line. A complete and utter waste of talent. Gagne should be an 80 to 90 point scorer in this league. Instead, Hitch has him doing defensive assignments. The man has totally wasted Gagne's offensive ability. Just think what Hitch is going to do to Carter and Richards. I have no confidence in the man what so ever when it comes to developing offensive players because the only thing the man ever thinks about is defense.

I'm extremely pi$$ed with the Flyers organization for wasting Gagne the way they have. And I also get a kick out of some of the comments on here about Gagne. "Well, he can be a future Selke candidate and that 70 points a year is acceptable." Maybe when I get home, I'll have a big glass of milk and take three viagra...... :shakehead

Whatever the case may be, fact of the matter is that the Flyers have WASTED Gagne's talent. This guy was progressing to be one of the best left wingers when Bill Barber was coach. Hitch has done everything to reverse that course. Are you telling me that Amonte couldn't have played on the checking line? No, of course not because he was making 6 million bucks a year. So, in order to justify that salary and Leclair's 9 million, they gave the two of them prime scoring slots while Gagne got the checking assignment. Or wait, is that Hitch's way of saying that the veterans will always come first in his system? After all, he gave Pitkanen peanuts for ice time and we all know about how Seidenberg has failed to progress under Hitch and we also know that Hitch had his hand in dealing Williams for Markov.......
 
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