Out of town thread: Where the grass is ALWAYS greener!

[Habs Halifax]

True again, but i stated that before and i'll say it again, i'll choose the excitement of NHL playoffs including my team in it over any draft picks, altho i can understand that others may see that differently

I don't see much difference in the draft from the 10-30 spots to be honest. It's a deep draft but the talent in that range is similar IMO. The only difference is getting a lower pick and taking a guy your organization might be high on vs others and drafting him before another team does.

So for me it's one of the other. A top 10 lottery pick or we take our chances and try for the playoffs but we do not trade any futures to improve our chances. Trading futures at this point is not a plan I support.... Unless it's for a player like Tavares in a sign and trade.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No I’m saying you can only give a guy the benefit of doubt for so long. And if you’re evaluating him year to year, you should be grading him incredibly low the last two seasons. They were very telling of the direction he wants to go, and that’s continue to spin in circles and hope to get lucky. This philosophy of signing a goalie to a monster contract, aquire and sign a bunch of stay at home defenceman, aquire and sign grinders, and hope the forwards scrape by scoring two goals a game is a joke. It’s why I don’t want him around anymore. He took a once speedy team and turned it into a team full of slugs. Horrible entertainment value with little results.

I do evaluation year to year. This past offseason was not a good one for sure. Not what we expected but I think we disagree with several moves or lack their of.

- Price: We paid too much (About $1M ish) but we might of got burned if we played hardball.
- Drouin for Sergachev: Solid trade IMO. Both teams got a good piece. Not surprised Sergachev is doing well on a stacked roster in Tampa.
- Radulov: We had no chance once Dallas came into the picture and Radulov admitted we were trying to sign him since last December. We would of had to give him well north of $7M for Radulov to consider coming back. Hard to say what the right number was but at the end of the day, he choose Dallas on a deal I feel our GM would of gave him. Thinking Bergevin did not want Radulov back for 5 years at $6.25M is not reasonable IMO.
- Markov: It was only a matter of time before he was gone and it was about a year or two too early. Likely does not factor in us winning a cup. 3pts in the last 18 playoff games is nothing to brag about for a guy who is known to provide offense on the back end and be average on Defense.
- Galchenyuk: I hate the 3 year deal. I give him a bit more and lock him up for at least 5 years. I would love to know what Galchenyuk and his agent were asking for!
- Expansion Draft: We traded Beaulieu to protect Benn and lost Emelin. Then we were able to snag Schlemko but he is only making an impact in the last week due to getting injured.

What did go our way this off season? Not much and it certainly adds pressure on firing Bergevin. I repeat, what he does from here till the trade deadline is what I am interested to see. He needs to trade Patch for solid futures and get what he can for Pleky at the deadline. That would be a first step. Then he needs to have a good summer instead of the one we just had.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I don't have a problem with the data I presented, you do. But I do appreciate you checking my work and letting me know about Point (think it was you). I did make a mistake on this. However, I do not appreciate you trying to twist this against me on several posts though. But hey, that's what you do so I'm use to it by now

This is nonsense.

Here's how our interaction went down.

waffledave said: ''My evidence is that calling McCarron, DLR and Scherbak bonafide NHL players is complete nonsense at this stage in their careers, and to pretend that they are in order to pump up our draft "successes" is as transparent as it gets.''

to which you replied: ''Bonafide eh? I said that?''

at which point I interjected: ''Bonafide just means 'authentic or true.' You listed them as NHLers. Are they fake NHLers according to you?''

So yes, yes you did call them bonafide NHLers and you should deal with waffledave's argument that including them as such in a comparison between NHL teams is awfully transparent. As is omitting 2007, and drawing a line between 2011 and 2012, which we discussed yesterday.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Not sure Lombardi is an upgrade on Bergevin to be honest. Lombardi comes in with the expectations of making moves because the previous guy didn't... he likely causes more damage similar to the Oilers GM. Now is not the right time to make this move. Maybe in the off season depending on how the rest of the season goes. If Bergevin gets fired, you can let me know I was wrong and insist at that point the next guy will take us to the promise land. In a few years from that, I will let you know you were wrong. See how this is a pointless game?

Honestly, this isn't even moving the goalposts anymore, it's boarding up the goalmouth. In what possible conceivable way is Lombardi not ''more proven'' than Bergevin? You said if you were president, and you were presented with a ''more proven'' candidate that you would fire Bergevin and hire the more proven candidate. What gives?

 

[DesmondDekker]

Man I swear if Dahlin ends up in Ottawa or Edmonton I’ll lose my f***ing mind.

 

[waffledave]

Bonafide eh? I said that?

The point was comparing 2008-2011 vs 2012-2017 with the Habs and then looking at how this compares to the rest of the league. But hey, how about you keep telling us that McCarron, DLR, and Scherbak won't be NHL players just like people said that Hudon, Lehkonen, and Mete would not be. You have some pretty hard core evidence working for you here I tell you. It erases everything I presented right?

McCarron has played roughly the same number of NHL games as guys like Leblanc and Tinordi. Did you count those guys at NHL players in your little chart?

 

[WeThreeKings]

Man I swear if Dahlin ends up in Ottawa or Edmonton I’ll lose my ****ing mind.

Send your complaints to Carey Price.

 

[417]

Send your complaints to Carey Price.

When he's struggling...he gets crapped on.

Now, he's playing well...crap on him again?

Makes sense.

 

[Habs Halifax]

McCarron has played roughly the same number of NHL games as guys like Leblanc and Tinordi. Did you count those guys at NHL players in your little chart?

So do you think McCarron don't play any more NHL games from this point moving forward? Tell us please... Do you think McCarron is a NHL player or not in the end or not? Stick your neck out instead of making attempts to belittle others?

 

[SquiddFX]

So do you think McCarron don't play any more NHL games from this point moving forward? Tell us please... Do you think McCarron is a NHL player or not in the end or not? Stick your neck out instead of making attempts to belittle others?

Well seeing as NHLers play in the NHL and not the AHL. At this point in time he is not an NHLer.

 

[waffledave]

So do you think McCarron don't play any more NHL games from this point moving forward? Tell us please... Do you think McCarron is a NHL player or not in the end or not? Stick your neck out instead of making attempts to belittle others?

My opinion on McCarron doesn't matter. How can you call him an NHL player at this stage in his career and ignore others who have played the same number of games? What is the measuring stick here? Because now you are saying that what he PROJECTS to be has an influence on what he is today, in terms of determining whether he's a real NHL player or not. The minute you start throwing things out like that then your entire analysis is deeply flawed.

By the way, at best McCarron will never be anything more than a 3rd line grinder. And I personally don't think he'll ever be a full time NHLer.

 

[Habs]

Man I swear if Dahlin ends up in Ottawa or Edmonton I’ll lose my ****ing mind.

Sad, but true. The Oil will tank this year, to solve their blueline issues. They will battle the Sens for the Dahlin lottery, since EK won't resign there. At least they have the balls to tank to fill team voids.

 

[Habs Halifax]

My opinion on McCarron doesn't matter. How can you call him an NHL player at this stage in his career and ignore others who have played the same number of games? What is the measuring stick here? Because now you are saying that what he PROJECTS to be has an influence on what he is today, in terms of determining whether he's a real NHL player or not. The minute you start throwing things out like that then your entire analysis is deeply flawed.

By the way, at best McCarron will never be anything more than a 3rd line grinder. And I personally don't think he'll ever be a full time NHLer.

Your opinion of McCarron does matter if you are going to question others about what they think of him. I think you will be wrong and he will be a full time NHL player but I do agree he is bottom 6 for sure (at best). Not sure why you take this side debate so serious when every team has situations like McCarron and DLR? Why not focus on the better players like Mete, Hudon, Lehkonen, Scherbak, Juulsen? There was a reason why I set 3 colors codes (NHL elite, Top 9F/Top 4D, and NHL player). All mean different value to each team and all teams have similar players in each category but not so much in the elite level category.

There is too many unknowns from the 2013-2017 draft years but the trends you see support what I have been saying for a while now. Our 2008-2011 draft years were one of the worse you will see and we are starting to turn the corner from this now. Our drafting is also solid from 2012-2016 when compared to the rest of league.

But hey... You keep up with the McCarron and DLR debate if it means a lot to you

 

[Kriss E]

So do you think McCarron don't play any more NHL games from this point moving forward? Tell us please... Do you think McCarron is a NHL player or not in the end or not? Stick your neck out instead of making attempts to belittle others?

I think it is pretty clear at this point that McCarron will not be a regular NHLer. If he has some type of breakout season where his play significantly improves, then perhaps, but that is completely unpredictable.
If he keeps on the same curve he's been on, he isn't making the NHL full time man. Not sure how any objective person would see it differently.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Send your complaints to Carey Price.

I'll point out that Montreal is 21st in SV%. This team isn't just Carey Price. Its just thoroughly mediocre team all-around.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think it is pretty clear at this point that McCarron will not be a regular NHLer. If he has some type of breakout season where his play significantly improves, then perhaps, but that is completely unpredictable.
If he keeps on the same curve he's been on, he isn't making the NHL full time man. Not sure how any objective person would see it differently.

I don't think anything is clear about McCarron at this stage. He is a fringe NHL player today but we have him playing big minutes in Laval. But hey, Keep up the good work with trying to dismiss McCarron as a future NHL player. The evidence you provide is staggering! How can I argue against your logic

 

[waffledave]

Your opinion of McCarron does matter if you are going to question others about what they think of him. I think you will be wrong and he will be a full time NHL player but I do agree he is bottom 6 for sure (at best). Not sure why you take this side debate so serious when every team has situations like McCarron and DLR? Why not focus on the better players like Mete, Hudon, Lehkonen, Scherbak, Juulsen? There was a reason why I set 3 colors codes (NHL elite, Top 9F/Top 4D, and NHL player). All mean different value to each team and all teams have similar players in each category but not so much in the elite level category.

There is too many unknowns from the 2013-2017 draft years but the trends you see support what I have been saying for a while now. Our 2008-2011 draft years were one of the worse you will see and we are starting to turn the corner from this now. Our drafting is also solid from 2012-2016 when compared to the rest of league.

But hey... You keep up with the McCarron and DLR debate if it means a lot to you

The whole point of your analysis was to remove opinion out from the conversation.

You made a chart to show that drafting has improved over the last few years and that it compares favorably to the drafting of other, more successful teams.

But that chart means nothing if you do things like include McCarron as an "NHLer" and yet don't consider Leblanc and Tinordi the same way.

At this point in his career, McCarron cannot be considered an NHLer. I wouldn't even call DLR one either, even though I think he'll stick it out full time. They are unknowns at best.

So you cannot use them to pump up the drafting stats and back up your argument only because in your view, they will eventually make it. The whole point of this exercise is to rely on facts only.

That's why I think your evidence sucks. You make "mistakes" about players like Point and you are massively generous when it comes to players that back up the point you are trying to make.

You can pretend like it isn't a huge deal, but it does make a difference when evaluating draft successes. We've already pointed out 3 players that you included as "NHLers" that absolutely have no business being on that list.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The whole point of your analysis was to remove opinion out from the conversation.

You made a chart to show that drafting has improved over the last few years and that it compares favorably to the drafting of other, more successful teams.

But that chart means nothing if you do things like include McCarron as an "NHLer" and yet don't consider Leblanc and Tinordi the same way.

At this point in his career, McCarron cannot be considered an NHLer. I wouldn't even call DLR one either, even though I think he'll stick it out full time. They are unknowns at best.

So you cannot use them to pump up the drafting stats and back up your argument only because in your view, they will eventually make it. The whole point of this exercise is to rely on facts only.

That's why I think your evidence sucks. You make "mistakes" about players like Point and you are massively generous when it comes to players that back up the point you are trying to make.

You can pretend like it isn't a huge deal, but it does make a difference when evaluating draft successes. We've already pointed out 3 players that you included as "NHLers" that absolutely have no business being on that list.

Move on from the McCarron and DLR as not being NHL players witch hunt. Most would agree they are NHL players today or will be. I don't think anybody is bragging them on as top 6 forwards either. Every team has these types of players and will it make you happy to have them a white color instead of a blue color? If that is the case, other teams would have to be applied the same rules and yes, I will need help on certain players.

What's not cool is when someone does a lot of work and sticks their neck out while people like you come in with issues about McCarron and DLR and keep fighting stupid little insignificant points over and over and fails to see the main point of why the data was presented to begin with.

The only sure evaluation we can see is from the 2008-2012 draft years IMO. The 2013-2017 years are too early. However, even after saying this, my point still remains. We have done well from 2012-2017 when compared to the rest of the league. Much much better vs the 2008-2012 draft.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't think anything is clear about McCarron at this stage. He is a fringe NHL player today but we have him playing big minutes in Laval. But hey, Keep up the good work with trying to dismiss McCarron as a future NHL player. The evidence you provide is staggering! How can I argue against your logic

Evidence? You are talking about a prospect, the only thing you have to go for is observational proof.
He has looked out of place at the NHL every time. He has shown very little progress during his stints here and he's 22. So no, I don't have high hopes for him. Tell me, how high were you hopes on Leblanc as a 21yo?

At this point, Big Mac is not a NHLer, if you can't even admit that, it shows how desperate you are.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Evidence? You are talking about a prospect, the only thing you have to go for is observational proof.
He has looked out of place at the NHL every time. He has shown very little progress during his stints here and he's 22. So no, I don't have high hopes for him. Tell me, how high were you hopes on Leblanc as a 21yo?

At this point, Big Mac is not a NHLer, if you can't even admit that, it shows how desperate you are.

His game doesn’t translate to the NHL at all. He’s alright to plug in on the 4th line but he’ll be going the way of Tinordi.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Evidence? You are talking about a prospect, the only thing you have to go for is observational proof.
He has looked out of place at the NHL every time. He has shown very little progress during his stints here and he's 22. So no, I don't have high hopes for him. Tell me, how high were you hopes on Leblanc as a 21yo?

At this point, Big Mac is not a NHLer, if you can't even admit that, it shows how desperate you are.

The point is will he be a NHL player? Most say yes but most also say 4th line or 3rd at best. We really agree in the end but you like disagreeing with me. White or Blue... pick one. Don't care because I feel he ends up a Blue... NHL player. He is age 22, not age 24 or 25. I'm treating him like a 22 year old prospect and you are treating him like a bust at the age of 24 or 25. Congratulations

 

[NotProkofievian]

When he's struggling...he gets crapped on.

Now, he's playing well...crap on him again?

Makes sense.

It's consistent.

I crap on Carey Price all the time!

 

[NotProkofievian]

Honestly, this isn't even moving the goalposts anymore, it's boarding up the goalmouth. In what possible conceivable way is Lombardi not ''more proven'' than Bergevin? You said if you were president, and you were presented with a ''more proven'' candidate that you would fire Bergevin and hire the more proven candidate. What gives?

@ToLegitToQuit

 

[waffledave]

Move on from the McCarron and DLR as not being NHL players witch hunt. Most would agree they are NHL players today or will be. I don't think anybody is bragging them on as top 6 forwards either. Every team has these types of players and will it make you happy to have them a white color instead of a blue color? If that is the case, other teams would have to be applied the same rules and yes, I will need help on certain players.

What's not cool is when someone does a lot of work and sticks their neck out while people like you come in with issues about McCarron and DLR and keep fighting stupid little insignificant points over and over and fails to see the main point of why the data was presented to begin with.

The only sure evaluation we can see is from the 2008-2012 draft years IMO. The 2013-2017 years are too early. However, even after saying this, my point still remains. We have done well from 2012-2017 when compared to the rest of the league. Much much better vs the 2008-2012 draft.

Oh please, quit whining and playing the victim here. You said it yourself, you stuck your neck out to try and make a point. Part of that is dealing with being shown when you have it wrong.

You can belittle it and call it a witchhunt all your want, but that's 3 players now that you included as NHL players in your analysis to show how great we've done at drafting that are FAR from NHL players today. You are trying to show how great we are compared to the rest of the league and you're padding the stats by including 3 players that shouldn't be there. That's not insignificant, that's a lot.

 

[Habs Halifax]

@ToLegitToQuit

Well, I already said I am not so sure Lombardi is an improvement over Bergevin. How about we trade Bergevin for Ciarelli? He is more proven because he won a cup right?